Founders Pack End-All According To De

[Seox]

They're cosmetic items, some have an importance on the lore. (Excalibur Prime.) Why shouldn't all players have a chance to use them? 

 

They're only cosmetic items, even though some are involved in the lore. (Excalibur Prime.)Why should other players care if they can't get them?

[Quovander]

Why are people still arguing about this? The debate is over. Founders program is NOT coming back.

Repeat: NOT coming back.

I don't understand why people are hell-bent on damaging DE's reputation by making them go back on their promise.

Edited March 11, 2014 by MrPrecision

[koopagon]

I don't understand why people are hell-bent on damaging DE's reputation by going back on their promise.

because the shineys, they wants them...

[CandyDragon]

I think your first question can be bounced back to you, just as well. Why are you opposed to other players getting the 'rewards' you have? Is it solely based on the idea that the items you got were exclusive?

 

They're cosmetic items, some have an importance on the lore. (Excalibur Prime.) Why shouldn't all players have a chance to use them? Equal can be said about the Prime weapons, somewhat. Also, there is an inherient bonus that comes from these weapons in the form of Mastery Ranks which plays on a multitude of in-game mechanics, and more seem to pop up every day. (Focus is dependent on Mastery Rank.)

 

 

You can't get Excalibur Prime through Prime Access.

 

It's a mixture of both, Excalibur Prime, the original Prime, the original Warframe, etc. Someone who is willing to pay that amount of money probably wants it for it's deep seeded Lore basis.

 

You can only buy XYZ amount of Platinum until it dulls the senses. 'Just' getting Platinum isn't the same as being able to donate that same amount of money to get an item in game.

Answering in order of boldness:

 

1. it was a sold commodity, not a reward. It was purchased exclusivity. Re-releasing it is a violation of consumer rights as it was sold under that understanding.

 

2. If its cosmetic, then its irrelevant, its not a game changing feature that prevents you from enjoying the game itself. Its simply a tic box that you want to fill and are unable to.

 

Rather than begrudgingly ranting about something that clearly wont change. And avoiding the (extremely bad) attempts at demonizing founders for wanting to keep their paid exclusivity. You should consider investing that time in the game you clearly enjoy enough to rant about.

 

 

"Deep seeded Lore"

We have less than 5 paragraphs of information pertaining to warframe lore. Its not that deep. Its Lucas'd up (george lucas), ambiguity and mystery allows speculation which masks the lack of actual lore. Players are generating more fan theory than there is actual lore in game currently. Know the difference before you assume its that deep.

 

Calling it a donation is cute, but its never been a donation.

Even the founders pack was simply a way to boost revenue and recieve goods in return. You never "donated" to the game, you supported it with your buisness.

 

Sorry you missed out on it, but thats just the way it is. 

[Trowicia]

Honestly, For me personally, Just give me the Mastery EXP for the weapons and Frames no longer available, At that point, I'll stop caring.

/thread

 

Founders can keep their "exclusive" things, I just want the mastery exp for them.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Trowicia

[Quovander]

because the shineys, they wants them...

Well too.. Effin. Bad... Good lord lol

[Yezzik]

They're only cosmetic items, even though some are involved in the lore. (Excalibur Prime.)Why should other players care if they can't get them?

 

Mastery. It might do sod all now, but if removed items ever become the difference between player power levels, that's an imbalance. And if DE want to push PvP and/or competitive PvE in this game, imbalances must be crushed.

 

Because if you think people screaming over not having the Founders' gear now is petty, wait until it becomes the difference between--I don't know--using your Badass Super-Ability when you absolutely need it and not being able to because it's still on cooldown because you didn't spend £250 or however much it was on the Founders' pack.

[GottaGoFast]

Bringing back a "founders" program defeats its definition.

[LoGicMoTion]

Its whatever.

Founders are whack anyway

[Emeere]

I think your first question can be bounced back to you, just as well. Why are you opposed to other players getting the 'rewards' you have? Is it solely based on the idea that the items you got were exclusive?

 

They're cosmetic items, some have an importance on the lore. (Excalibur Prime.) Why shouldn't all players have a chance to use them? Equal can be said about the Prime weapons, somewhat. Also, there is an inherient bonus that comes from these weapons in the form of Mastery Ranks which plays on a multitude of in-game mechanics, and more seem to pop up every day. (Focus is dependent on Mastery Rank.)

 

 

You can't get Excalibur Prime through Prime Access.

 

It's a mixture of both, Excalibur Prime, the original Prime, the original Warframe, etc. Someone who is willing to pay that amount of money probably wants it for it's deep seeded Lore basis.

 

You can only buy XYZ amount of Platinum until it dulls the senses. 'Just' getting Platinum isn't the same as being able to donate that same amount of money to get an item in game.

1.) Honestly? it isn't even about the items for me, it was legitimately about the fact that they said it would be exclusive, it's the principle of the action. If they 'change their mind', they're lying to their earliest customers.

2.) I'd be fine with them removing the Mastery Bonus from all Founder Prime Gear retroactively.

3.) I'd like to believe the majority of people want it for the basis in lore, I really really would, but I have a nagging feeling people want it just because they cannot/don't have it.

Does anyone remember the Frost Prime Debacle, where DE was called out for releasing the Frost Prime Blueprint after they claimed it would be exclusive? Anyone remember the uproar that caused? This is the same issue, but a hundred thousands times worse.

Edit: I changed the wording from 'prime weapons' to "Founders Prime Gear" to clarify my point

Edited March 11, 2014 by Emeere

[Yezzik]

2.) I'd be fine with them removing the Mastery Bonus from all prime weapons retroactively.

 

Depending on how the game's coded, that might not be possible.

We've had retroactive *adding*, but I don't think we've ever had Mastery taken away.

[Emeere]

Depending on how the game's coded, that might not be possible.

We've had retroactive *adding*, but I don't think we've ever had Mastery taken away.

Don't we deserve to find out?

[Yezzik]

Don't we deserve to find out?

 

What are you asking me that for?

[CandyDragon]

Because if you think people screaming over not having the Founders' gear now is petty, wait until it becomes the difference between--I don't know--using your Badass Super-Ability when you absolutely need it and not being able to because it's still on cooldown because you didn't spend £250 or however much it was on the Founders' pack.

A classic example of a strawman.

 

However, you even say it yourself, You don't know. Creating imaginary reasons for a mechanic that doesn't actually occur in game. Cash related to in game abilities? Thats a huge stretch.

 

Its petty, it will remain petty.

[Emeere]

What are you asking me that for?

 

 

Oh, sorry, lemme use my magic founders powers to call a DEv into the thread, one second.

My point still stands. Items that were promised to be exclusive should stay exclusive, unless it seriously impacts the game in some tangible way.

I think the same way about exclusive event weapons, honestly, but that's another topic.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Emeere

[Seox]

Mastery. It might do sod all now, but if removed items ever become the difference between player power levels, that's an imbalance. And if DE want to push PvP and/or competitive PvE in this game, imbalances must be crushed.

 

Because if you think people screaming over not having the Founders' gear now is petty, wait until it becomes the difference between--I don't know--using your Badass Super-Ability when you absolutely need it and not being able to because it's still on cooldown because you didn't spend £250 or however much it was on the Founders' pack.

 

For one, the difference that those three pieces of gear make right now at higher mastery ranks is already insubstantial. Imagine what it'll be like closer to rank 30.

 

Secondly, I don't care if people get the mastery points - I'm fine with that and doubt you'd see many others complaining about it as well. I was just trying to demonstrate how the exact same logic could be used against the point, because saying "Cosmetics = why can't players have them?" is not self evident, contrary to what several people seem to be implying.

[Zerrien]

Why are people still arguing about this? The debate is over. Founders program is NOT coming back.

Repeat: NOT coming back.

I don't understand why people are hell-bent on damaging DE's reputation by making them go back on their promise.

 

A lot of things have been brought up, but this is the one I'm going to hit on now.

 

Just as Founders are unwilling to roll over and let the rest of the players access to their items, the players who came later, the players who are finally willing to support the game in such a large way, and those who would simply like the items to have are unwilling to just accept that items are exclusive.

 

I am unwilling to just accept that these items are never coming back. While it may make people happy for us all to drop it, and leave the items exclusive, it's been wishy-washed a few times on the Developer Q&As. Sometimes they say 'noooo!' Sometimes they say 'ehhh...' And even if they made a definitive post saying it'd never come back, the players still should be able to voice their opinions on the matter.

 

I, personally, want Design Council access. While I can understand those precious Forum Avatar badges being 100% exclusive, never to return, to say Design Council access is equally unobtainable does in fact upset me.

[Emeere]

A lot of things have been brought up, but this is the one I'm going to hit on now.

 

Just as Founders are unwilling to roll over and let the rest of the players access to their items, the players who came later, the players who are finally willing to support the game in such a large way, and those who would simply like the items to have are unwilling to just accept that items are exclusive.

 

I am unwilling to just accept that these items are never coming back. While it may make people happy for us all to drop it, and leave the items exclusive, it's been wishy-washed a few times on the Developer Q&As. Sometimes they say 'noooo!' Sometimes they say 'ehhh...' And even if they made a definitive post saying it'd never come back, the players still should be able to voice their opinions on the matter.

 

I, personally, want Design Council access. While I can understand those precious Forum Avatar badges being 100% exclusive, never to return, to say Design Council access is equally unobtainable does in fact upset me.

A way for other players to Access the DC is being worked on, actually.

[CandyDragon]

I am unwilling to just accept that these items are never coming back.

de·ni·al

diˈnīəl/

noun

noun: denial

1. 1.

   the action of declaring something to be untrue.

   "she shook her head in denial"

   synonyms: contradiction, refutation, rebuttal, repudiation, disclaimer; More

    

    

   • the refusal of something requested or desired.

     "the denial of insurance to people with certain medical conditions"

     synonyms: refusal, withholding; More

      

      

      
   • a statement that something is not true.

     plural noun: denials

     "official denials"

     synonyms: contradiction, refutation, rebuttal, repudiation, disclaimer; More

      

      
   • PSYCHOLOGY

     failure to acknowledge an unacceptable truth or emotion or to admit it into consciousness, used as a defense mechanism.

     "you're living in denial"
   • short for self-denial.
   • disavowal of a person as one's leader.

      

      

      

      

      

 

On a side note, the design council thing is reasonable, but at the same time, having too many people in that sort of defeats its intended function.

[Yezzik]

A classic example of a strawman.

Not really.

I'm simply basing my opinions and arguments off past experience with proposed changes in games. Case in point: World of Warcraft, although this issue was a story issue.

There were complaints over a story issue while Cataclysm was in beta. People felt the Alliance was getting screwed over yet again, because the Horde was winning everywhere and the Alliance content felt half-finished, half-assed and rushed. They were told "wait and see, it's coming" by their fellow players, by fansite operators, and by CMs and developers themselves.

Cataclysm released. The Alliance's content was the same as it had been during beta--still half-finished, still half-assed, still rushed. The same people made the same arguments, but the counter-arguments from CMs especially changed to "you should have said something during beta; it's too late now."

The situation is different, but there are parallels. We know of a proposed change to gameplay (Focus), we know it's supposed to play off an existing system that has an imbalance that favours one group (Mastery), and so I'm trying to bring the issue to peoples' attention BEFORE it goes live and the problem--however large or small it is--manifests.

Oh, sorry, lemme use my magic founders powers to call a DEv into the thread, one second.

Not what I meant. I just don't know why you're asking me an irrelevant question.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Yezzik

[Emeere]

Not really.

 

I'm simply basing my opinions and arguments off past experience with proposed changes in games. Case in point: World of Warcraft, although this issue was a story issue.

 

There were complaints over a story issue while Cataclysm was in beta. People felt the Alliance was getting screwed over yet again, because the Horde was winning everywhere and the Alliance content felt half-finished, half-assed and rushed. They were told "wait and see, it's coming" by their fellow players, by fansite operators, and by CMs and developers themselves.

 

Cataclysm released. The Alliance's content was the same as it had been during beta--still half-finished, still half-assed, still rushed. The same people made the same arguments, but the counter-arguments from CMs especially changed to "you should have said something during beta; it's too late now."

 

The situation is different, but there are parallels. We know of a proposed change to gameplay (Focus), we know it's supposed to play off an existing system that has an imbalance that favours one group (Mastery), and so I'm trying to bring the issue to peoples' attention BEFORE it goes live and the problem--however large or small it is--manifests.

An alternative way to fix the 'issue' is by granting everyone the "Founders Mastery" to bring them onto par. Would that suffice?

[CandyDragon]

You misrepresented the original topic, its a strawman.

[Yezzik]

An alternative way to fix the 'issue' is by granting everyone the "Founders Mastery" to bring them onto par. Would that suffice?

 

Perfectly so, although the same would have to apply to whatever other removed weapons (and the Gorgon Wraith, if it goes away) DE have in their Disney vault that they aren't going to bring back permanently.

 

You misrepresented the original topic, its a strawman.

 

It's not a strawman; I'm arguing from another perspective, another opinion.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Yezzik

[Zerrien]

The situation is different, but there are parallels. We know of a proposed change to gameplay (Focus), we know it's supposed to play off an existing system that has an imbalance that favours one group (Mastery), and so I'm trying to bring the issue to peoples' attention BEFORE it goes live and the problem--however large or small it is--manifests.

 

I also want to take this moment to say, while this specific thread is about Founder's Items, we also need to take a look at the other pre-open-beta exclusives.

 

While there are 3 items (1 of which is a Warframe.) There are many other exclusives out there that, if owned, give you a Mastery Advantage over other players.

[Emeere]

Perfectly so, although the same would have to apply to whatever other removed weapons (and the Gorgon Wraith, if it goes away) DE have in their Disney vault that they aren't going to bring back permanently.

I agree with this as well, and always have. 'Ultra-Special-Cool-LE-Exlusive Items' should never award EXP