Challenge-Lock Prime Blueprints

[notionphil]

Curious to see feedback on this little idea...

 

Lock All Prime BP's Behind Challenges

 

-Keep all Primes parts tradeable except for BPs.

-Remove BP's from Void drop tables.

-Make Prime BP's a reward for a specific Void mission that requires a marketplace-bought key.

 

Why?

 

Because the shift to Primes being tradable was a victory over RNG, but a loss for actually playing the game's most iconic and challenging missions. Nothing in WF currently rewards challenge (even Brakk/Detron reward grind, not challenge). Anyone can trade mods (or pay) to get a few plat, and end up with Prime frames and some of the most powerful weapons by the first afternoon of play. It removes goal-setting and aspirational play when there's nothing for anyone to look forward to, ever.

 

Challenge locking items won't undo the RNG fix, or hurt market sales. It will simply give players the chance to earn their Primes by striving, planning and improving until they can accomplish the missions.

 

Why Not Just Mastery Lock?

I'd love it if Prime Weapons were both mastery locked and challenge locked. But I assume DE doesn't want to mastery lock primes, or they would have already.

There should be some goal in WF that doesn't just reward having access to mods, gear and frames - but instead skillfully putting together a loadout and running a challenging mission with it.

 

How?

 

Each BP becomes a reward for a specific void 'mission'. Buy the key from the marketplace, craft it. It takes you to a Special Void instance, which is one of the standard mission types - however the enemy level is pre-set based on the item you want.

 

The difficulty of the mission relates to the power of the item.

 

EG: Want Sicarus Prime BP? Key takes you to Void Exterm with level 17 enemies. Can run with a full group.

 

Want Boltor Prime BP? Solo Void survival with level 45 enemies, for 10 minutes. Can only run solo.

 

Discuss, flame etc :)

 

EDIT - added more info on mastery lock

Edited March 18, 2014 by notionphil

[Socks]

Why not just make prime weapons have a mastery rank lock on them so that they actually have to play.

[BrotherIcarus]

Sure take out the limit on number of players and it sounds like a good idea.

[notionphil]

Why not just make prime weapons have a mastery rank lock on them so that they actually have to play.

 

Because that still rewards just grind, not grind with challenge.

 

And because I'm assuming DE wants anyone to be "able" to use Primes, which keeps the Plat moving around.

 

EDIT - added underlined words

Edited March 18, 2014 by notionphil

[Genoscythe]

Actually a nice idea, and also less RNG, I think i can agree with that.

 

I think there has to be done much much more to make Warframe finally a fair game. At the moment you run around in every mission and you know you cant loose, youre invincible. So you just run 5 times of this and that mission and expect something to drop.

 

+1 for more rewards for being a skilled player instead of a time-investing zombie.

[Shifty_Shuffler]

I like it.

[-FrostByte-]

I like the mastery lock on them idea aswell

[notionphil]

Sure take out the limit on number of players and it sounds like a good idea.

 

Hmmm....porque? So anyone can be 'taxied' to any BP?

 

Only really strong Primes would have solo limits.

 

Why should you have access to the strongest gear in the game if you can't handle powerful enemies?

[notionphil]

I like the mastery lock on them idea aswell

 

Preferrably I'd put both mastery lock and challenge lock. But I doubt DE wants to mastery lock them.

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

Hmmm....porque? So anyone can be 'taxied' to any BP?

 

Only really strong Primes would have solo limits.

 

Why should you have access to the strongest gear in the game if you can't handle powerful enemies?

 

takes you back to the mastery locked suggestion.

 

Actually, would be too much to add a prime as reward when you pass a mastery test?

Edited March 17, 2014 by omega_phoenix

[BrotherIcarus]

Hmmm....porque? So anyone can be 'taxied' to any BP?

 

Only really strong Primes would have solo limits.

 

Why should you have access to the strongest gear in the game if you can't handle powerful enemies?

It is just a matter of this being a coop game and it is a very bad idea to force single play in a coop focused game.

[notionphil]

It is just a matter of this being a coop game and it is a very bad idea to force single play in a coop focused game.

 

We complete our rank challenges solo, to ensure we are individually powerful enough to have earned that rank.

 

We would earn the right to powerful Primes in the same way.

[BrotherIcarus]

We complete our rank challenges solo, to ensure we are individually powerful enough to have earned that rank.

 

We would earn the right to powerful Primes in the same way.

But the mastery challenges are not hard they are challenging in some cases yes but not hard.

[Socks]

We complete our rank challenges solo, to ensure we are individually powerful enough to have earned that rank.

 

We would earn the right to powerful Primes in the same way.

Well our rank challenges are pretty easy after you get a somewhat decent weapon. I don't really think people want to sit there and forma a weapon for one of the solo runs just to get a prime weapon that they want and do it all over again. It's just more grinding and wasting forma.

[notionphil]

But the mastery challenges are not hard they are challenging in some cases yes but not hard.

 

Hmm...I personally think it would be both fair, and fun to face a hard challenge to get access to the game's best Prime gear.

 

 

 

Well our rank challenges are pretty easy after you get a somewhat decent weapon. I don't really think people want to sit there and forma a weapon for one of the solo runs just to get a prime weapon that they want and do it all over again. It's just more grinding and wasting forma.

 

I'm sorry, i'm not trying to be rude but I don't understand.

 

If you don't have a powerful enough loadout to kill late-game mobs, why would you think you should get access to, say the Boltor Prime...which is for killing late-game mobs?

 

If you can't beat it, your loadout is not strong enough yet. You'd just use your best weapons, and if you fail, you're not ready, come back later.

Edited March 17, 2014 by notionphil

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

i like the idea, would even love to see limits in frame or weapon choice for those missions... would force people to get creative with frames/weapons they're not familiar with

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

yeah, is the same as always, there is a lot of ways to grant rewards beyond pure RNG.

 

you even could add challenges in game, like 5000 grinner kils with a pistol, sicarus barrel, you got the other two parts when you get 5000 kills with the pistol on the other 2 factions.

 

the BP is given in a special challenge.

 

but sadly RNG is here to stay, is a decision of the devs.

[LukeAura]

It's a great idea and I really think it's time we started rewarding skill instead of grind and rng lottery winnings. 
 

[Taranis49]

If you don't have a powerful enough loadout to kill late-game mobs, why would you think you should get access to, say the Boltor Prime...which is for killing late-game mobs?

 

If you can't beat it, your loadout is not strong enough yet. You'd just use your best weapons, and if you fail, you're not ready, come back later.

 

While I don't disagree with the idea in general, this particular idea runs in direct contradiction to your argument against mastery-locking the BPs in that it "just rewards grind" made in your second post in the thread - afterall, how do you get a better loadout? Whether it be obtaining/ranking up serration/hornet strike, multishot mods, elemental damage mods, better weapons, etc. you... grind for them.

 

Can't have your cake and eat it too on that basis, if you're going to argue obtaining them should be challenge-based rather than simply rewarding grind, you can't credibly say they should also be a gear check in the same breath - the two are mutually exclusive.

[Geptor]

First of all, thanks to notionphil to react to my post "Rest In Peace, Void"

That's really nice from you, amigo.

 

Then, for the idea... Nice one, but still need some work around it. For example.

 

Level 45 enemies in a survival of 10 minutes. It is really easy for frames like Saryn, Rhino, and so on. But It can be awful for non-damaging frames or supports like Zephyr, Trinity, etc. And players with the same game experience would be in different situations...

 

What I wanted to say - you have a perfect tool for a job, and if your main frame is not adapted to, well, you'll have some problems...

Edited March 17, 2014 by Geptor

[notionphil]

While I don't disagree with the idea in general, this particular idea runs in direct contradiction to your argument against mastery-locking the BPs in that it "just rewards grind" made in your second post in the thread - afterall, how do you get a better loadout? Whether it be obtaining/ranking up serration/hornet strike, multishot mods, elemental damage mods, better weapons, etc. you... grind for them.

 

Can't have your cake and eat it too on that basis, if you're going to argue obtaining them should be challenge-based rather than simply rewarding grind, you can't credibly say they should also be a gear check in the same breath - the two are mutually exclusive.

 

I don't disagree with mastery lock (as said in the OP), but I don't find it a complete solution. I also don't believe DE wants to mastery lock primes, bc that would stem the flow of plat trades.

 

Challenge and good gear are not at all mutually exclusive.

 

You might be able to survive 10m in lv 45 void with a 0 forma Nyx, because you used a creative absorb build. I might need a 3 forma Nyx, because I don't know how to build, or i'm simply not as good as you.

 

Challenge and gear will interact, that is intended. If you're especially good at playing, or building, you'll get early access to the most powerful weapons.

 

First of all, thanks to notionphil to react to my post "Rest In Peace, Void"

That's really nice from you, amigo.

 

Then, for the idea... Nice one, but still need some work around it. For example.

 

Level 45 enemies in a survival of 10 minutes. It is really easy for frames like Saryn, Rhino, and so on. But It can be awful for non-damaging frames or supports like Zephyr, Trinity, etc. And players with the same game experience would be in different situations...

 

What I wanted to say - you have a perfect tool for a job, and if your main frame is not adapted to, well, you'll have some problems...

 

Yes, this is true, and we can expect that by the time you're going for the most powerful equipment in the game, you should have a stable of frames and weapons for a variety of situations. This relates to the post above, in that you will need to have a combination of Gear and Skill to complete those hardest runs.

Edited March 17, 2014 by notionphil

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Perhaps a better system would be that to do these challenges, you had to be within a conclave range?

 

For the record, I don't approve or disapprove.  I'm just saying, if you're going to do it, wouldn't the above be a good tweak?

Edited March 18, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[LukeAura]

Perhaps a better system would be that to do these challenges, you had to be within a conclave range?

A minimum prevents taxiing for group allowed challenges?

And the maximum prevents trivialization through overpowered geared and weaponry for the level. 

Not a bad idea. It would certainly help keep challenge and better outline progression and scale of difficulty. 

[Taranis49]

I don't disagree with mastery lock (as said in the OP), but I don't find it a complete solution. I also don't believe DE wants to mastery lock primes, bc that would stem the flow of plat trades.

 

Challenge and good gear are not at all mutually exclusive.

 

You might be able to survive 10m in lv 45 void with a 0 forma Nyx, because you used a creative absorb build. I might need a 3 forma Nyx, because I don't know how to build, or i'm simply not as good as you.

 

Challenge and gear will interact, that is intended. If you're especially good at playing, or building, you'll get early access to the most powerful weapons.

 

 

Yes, this is true, and we can expect that by the time you're going for the most powerful equipment in the game, you should have a stable of frames and weapons for a variety of situations. This relates to the post above, in that you will need to have a combination of Gear and Skill to complete those hardest runs.

 

The problem is you contradict yourself in your very next post: to quote your response to the question of mastery locking:

 

 

Because that still rewards grind, not challenge.

 

And because I'm assuming DE wants anyone to be "able" to use Primes, which keeps the Plat moving around.

 

No matter how you slice it, it's a contradictory stance to then endorse a gear-check for being able to kill high-level mobs on your own when beyond the starting kit, pretty much everything in the game is essentially a reward for grinding.

 

If you're going to argue for it being genuinely challenge-based and not a reward for grind, it needs to be gear-independent.

[LukeAura]

No matter how you slice it, it's a contradictory stance to then endorse a gear-check for being able to kill high-level mobs on your own when beyond the starting kit, pretty much everything in the game is essentially a reward for grinding.

 

If you're going to argue for it being genuinely challenge-based and not a reward for grind, it needs to be gear-independent.

The idea of a mastery lock rewards only grind. 

And levelling enough Warframes and Weapons to reach upper ranks is not a 'grind' everyone wants to do. 

Most people will probably stop once they find their favourite four pieces of gear and work on maxing them out. This is progression. Something they enjoy and find challenge and accomplishment in. Once it becomes unfun it becomes a grind. 

A rank 0 can complete these challenges, if, they have the skill necessary. 

The only real grind needed would be for mods, but that is unavoidable in the current system. 

Edited March 18, 2014 by LukeAura