Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Elydir]

Tbh I don't really want Contagion to be a 1:1 replica of Warcry since I keep forgetting to use WC on my Valk anyway, and I prefer Archwizard's idea that it pop venom bulbs. It works a lot better with her skill set that way.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

What do you think about making the Warframes take more skill to play? Like moving abilities away from nukes, spammable damage, free self-buffs, fire and forget abilities, and over powered CC?

[Archwizard]

What do you think about making the Warframes take more skill to play? Like moving abilities away from nukes, spammable damage, free self-buffs, fire and forget abilities, and over powered CC?

 

Sort of the point of this thread, really.

 

I think there's room for a balance between "skillful" and "spammy". For example, the only iteration of Ember I can't imagine spamming Fireballs as a main attack is the one we have right now. There are already skills verging between the two, like Oberon's Hallowed Ground: once they allow the armor bonus to stack, it will create a risk-reward scenario, whether you want to drop your mobility and sink your energy to increase your armor and output.

 

It's appropriate to have a spammy nature with the first two buttons in the arsenal, but I've always believed the latter two should be more situational; damaging ultimates, for example, should either be panic buttons or finishing blows. The problem is that the current system still makes it both exponentially more cost-efficient to use the ultimate over any skills preceding it, and that there's simply zero risk to using the majority of ultimates.

 

In my opinion, "overpowered CC" and scenarios like it should come as a result of either using the frame to its fullest potential or combining the utilities of multiple frames. For example, I've always been a fan of Loki's ability to Disarm firearms and then draw attention to Decoys they can't reach, but it still isn't completely foolproof as enemies can still run around like chickens with their heads cut off or treat everything in sight like a nail. Thus far, the majority of CC has fallen into these categories, having at least one major downside (although in Terrify's case, the downsides are far too many)... except for ultimates like Vortex.

 

(To be continued when I get back from class.)

Edited September 10, 2014 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

except for ultimates like Vortex.

5 second idea - what if Vortex would pull Enemies in, ragdoll them, and spit them out once they've completed one revolution? they'd get spit out in basically a random direction.

 

instead of easymode you'd have powerful CC that keeps Enemies at bay, but also makes cleaning up a more complicated task.

 

 

it'd also be pretty amusing to watch Enemies go flying around, i think.

 

 

Edit:

and Vortex could still be used like it is now, it would just not be as effective as it. using Piercing Weapons to hit entire armies at once would work, just that Enemies would constantly be coming in AND out, instead of a one way door.

Edited September 10, 2014 by taiiat

[Noble_Cactus]

5 second idea - what if Vortex would pull Enemies in, ragdoll them, and spit them out once they've completed one revolution? they'd get spit out in basically a random direction.

 

instead of easymode you'd have powerful CC that keeps Enemies at bay, but also makes cleaning up a more complicated task.

 

 

it'd also be pretty amusing to watch Enemies go flying around, i think.

 

 

Edit:

and Vortex could still be used like it is now, it would just not be as effective as it. using Piercing Weapons to hit entire armies at once would work, just that Enemies would constantly be coming in AND out, instead of a one way door.

 

Hmm. Or maybe it could have a target limit, like Bastille. But maybe only 5 enemies at a time or something before the first one to get pulled in gets spat out? It's kind of ridiculous seeing this wall of Infested get pulled onto the pod, even if it is satisfying to fry the entire dogpile with an Amprex/blast it with an Angstrum/etc.

 

The other problem with Vortex is that you can have as many out at a time as you want. I think, anyway. Maybe there's a max of four or five.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[taiiat]

Hmm. Or maybe it could have a target limit, like Bastille. But maybe only 5 enemies at a time or something before the first one to get pulled in gets spat out?

i don't think you really need a Target Limit on it with that, Enemies would only be in Vortex for all of one or two seconds, and then they'd get thrown to some far end of the room. 

 

so the number of Enemies inside it shouldn't get that high then. infact, i think having a Target Limit plus that would make Vortex Underpowered. most Enemies would ignore it after they start coming in larger numbers, and Enemies would only spend short amounts of time in it.

and if i had to choose, i'd avoid the Target Limit since that's not as fun. any time a game can be better and more fun simultaneously, i'd take the opportunity.

 

for a Hard CC Power, that doesn't sound that great.

 

 

that does remind me though. Power Strength should modify the number of Revolutions Enemies stay inside Vortex. so i guess, 1, maybe 2 standard.

1 might be a bit short if you use OverExtended.

but 2 might also be too long most of the time if you use Power Strength to get more Revolutions, as you'd get that close to 5, which would result in Vortex being the same as it is now for most Level Enemies.

Edited September 10, 2014 by taiiat

[Archwizard]

Like I was saying, I believe ultimates should have more situational usage, rather than free spam. This is in part why I was so upset with Nekros and Valkyr's designs; while prior frames had basic skills that summarized the skillset (specifically the elementals) or acted as the cornerstone of their arsenal (Decoy), Nekros and Valkyr's thematic abilities were their ultimates - so best case they're not living up to their names (Nekros), and worst they're ultimate spamming like everyone else (Valkyr).

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand that in terms of theoretical output - purely on paper, Shadows - they should be ultimates, and I think Hysteria is an interesting case study: using the ultimate has a trade-off (even if not big enough), just like Soundquake and Absorb. I think this could be expanded upon for several more ultimates; those with immediate output should have a personal risk to the user (one you can't build out of - otherwise that setup would be quickly become a cookie cutter), so your entire mission isn't spent lagging behind the coptering Ember with 98% WoF uptime.

 

Think of it less as "punishment for doing what you normally do", and more "with great power comes great responsibility". Slotting the ultimate becomes more like signing a contract in which you agree to not play like a douchecanoe be mindful of your team.

 

In the case of Vortex, since we're already discussing it, see how much would change if it could also pull Vauban himself inside. Now you have A) a risky ability that doesn't troll the party (unless you're an idiot who decides to die a lot), B) a skill that actually takes some semblance of skill to master, C) a reason to use Bastille and Bounce again instead, and most importantly, D) encouragement to be mindful of ultimate spamming. Your Warframe is the greatest hazard on the battlefield - even to yourself. 

 

Now, I don't think all ultimates should push the player towards being a glass cannon. Like I have in the OP, Reckoning and Radial Javelin are finishing moves instead, increasing their output based on how you played before you started using it. It gives some hesitation to the skill; even if energy doesn't matter, you might not get as much out of it now as you could hitting Slash Dash a couple times right before.

With Trinity, Blessing is exactly the same as it's always been, but a separate element was added to her arsenal that attached some reward to her current risk: the ability to revive players with low health. Paired together, this high risk combo can give an absurd amount of mitigation, but only if you execute it perfectly and only for a brief while (in a manner you can't do alone and might not want to repeat often).

 

And of course, for abilities that deal flat damage values, there's already a note in the OP that says they should deal %-health damage too as a baseline, so there's definitely a reward for whatever risk you take.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Archwizard

[Noble_Cactus]

so your entire mission isn't spent lagging behind the coptering Ember with 98% WoF uptime.

 

Oh, god, this is the worst thing as Nekros. I'm supposed to clean up her mess while she's busy causing havoc three rooms away, and by the time I catch up to her, she's already turning around to go sweep the other rooms. Please don't do this, Embers of the world.

 

Anyway, hmm. I'm guessing the Vortex in your suggestion would do damage to Vauban himself, considering how you worded it? I'm not sure if I'm a fan of that. It'd prevent him from using certain weapons on the Vortex like the Amprex that require close quarters to work. If it doesn't cause damage, then Vauban would just whack the dogpile with his melee.

[LukeAura]

Now, I don't think all ultimates should push the player towards being a glass cannon. Like I have in the OP, Reckoning and Radial Javelin are finishing moves instead, increasing their output based on how you played before you started using it. It gives some hesitation to the skill; even if energy doesn't matter, you might not get as much out of it now as you could hitting Slash Dash a couple times right before.

Speaking of, now that Radial Blind requires LoS. I've realized that Excalibur, even if weaker than before, has suddenly gained a lot of value in the synergy between his skills.  

Half his kit requires LoS to be effective, the other half is high mobility to get around that limitation. The only problem is that as mobility tools, Slash Dash and Super Jump are fairly inflexible, they work in theory but less so in practical use. How would making them more flexible as to letting them 'chain' to his other abilities sound?  

 

 

that does remind me though. Power Strength should modify the number of Revolutions Enemies stay inside Vortex. so i guess, 1, maybe 2 standard.

1 might be a bit short if you use OverExtended.

but 2 might also be too long most of the time if you use Power Strength to get more Revolutions, as you'd get that close to 5, which would result in Vortex being the same as it is now for most Level Enemies.

I'm not quite sure on the dynamics of a revolution, how close do they get to the center, base speed of a revolution, could enough enemies jam themselves in to the orbit to stop them from completing a revolution.

But with power strength on 2 revolutions as a balance you could have successive revolutions increase slightly in speed as the enemy approaches escape velocity. Decreasing returns on the duration gained, but still making power strength valuable. 

[Noble_Cactus]

Speaking of, now that Radial Blind requires LoS. I've realized that Excalibur, even if weaker than before, has suddenly gained a lot of value in the synergy between his skills.  

Half his kit requires LoS to be effective, the other half is high mobility to get around that limitation. The only problem is that as mobility tools, Slash Dash and Super Jump are fairly inflexible, they work in theory but less so in practical use. How would making them more flexible as to letting them 'chain' to his other abilities sound?  

 

 

While the LoS targeting on Blind seems to be buggy (and is making a lot of players distraught), I'm actually interested in seeing where changes like this will go in the future. There have been a lot of threads recently stating that the lack of a LoS requirement on the game's most powerful skills is what makes it too easy/boring, and this RB change could be the start of a gradual turning back of these abilities. Personally, I'm all for promoting more movement and thoughtful use when it comes to radial skills. But I don't have Excal, so I can't test it out and see how well the change works in practice.

 

As for Slash Dash. Maybe it could chain between successive dashes if one strikes the enemy? As in, you SD at one enemy, and regardless of whether he dies or not, you can press the SD again to chain to an additional nearby enemy. Of course, this change is rife with targeting issues and would need a minimum range requirement so you're not flying around in a horde of enemies. But maybe something like this would help Excal get better positioning.

 

Not sure what to do about Super Jump, tbh.

[Archwizard]

Just spotted another change to Oberon from the OP in today's patch notes. Will edit.

 

Anyway, hmm. I'm guessing the Vortex in your suggestion would do damage to Vauban himself, considering how you worded it? I'm not sure if I'm a fan of that. It'd prevent him from using certain weapons on the Vortex like the Amprex that require close quarters to work. 

 

I don't think that's a real concern. The point is that you'd use the ability in emergencies, or you work it into a more complex strategy, rather than for the casual use of "I'd like to hit 10 guys with my Amprex right now, lemme just pop this".

 

Speaking of, now that Radial Blind requires LoS. I've realized that Excalibur, even if weaker than before, has suddenly gained a lot of value in the synergy between his skills.  
Half his kit requires LoS to be effective, the other half is high mobility to get around that limitation. The only problem is that as mobility tools, Slash Dash and Super Jump are fairly inflexible, they work in theory but less so in practical use. How would making them more flexible as to letting them 'chain' to his other abilities sound? 

 

That's sort of what I was going for with the changes listed in the OP:
- Slash Dash preserves and builds the combo count, which can transfer damage to Radial Javelin

- Super Jump causes Radial Javelin to pin opponents, and already allows Radial Blind to hit enemies behind cover

 

If you meant something more in-depth, feel free to expand on this.

[LukeAura]

While the LoS targeting on Blind seems to be buggy (and is making a lot of players distraught), I'm actually interested in seeing where changes like this will go in the future. There have been a lot of threads recently stating that the lack of a LoS requirement on the game's most powerful skills is what makes it too easy/boring, and this RB change could be the start of a gradual turning back of these abilities. Personally, I'm all for promoting more movement and thoughtful use when it comes to radial skills. But I don't have Excal, so I can't test it out and see how well the change works in practice.

I've tried it myself. The LoS is definitely not from the sword tip, the light source, but from much lower. Feels almost that waist high is the Los point. 

 

 

That's sort of what I was going for with the changes listed in the OP:

- Slash Dash preserves and builds the combo count, which can transfer damage to Radial Javelin

- Super Jump causes Radial Javelin to pin opponents, and already allows Radial Blind to hit enemies behind cover

 

If you meant something more in-depth, feel free to expand on this.

Not so much more in depth but more about the flexibility. It takes a long time to actually reach the apex of Super Jump in order to Radial Blind or Javelin. And in low cielings you'll hit your head and drop down before you can pull them off. While Slash Dash might send you sliding farther than you need, or not far enough. And the awkward lag at the end would make it worse if say you needed to follow it up with Super Jump after it.  

I'm talking more about letting them freely animation cancel in to other abilities or other ways to get more precision out of their use as positional tools.  

[Archwizard]

I'm talking more about letting them freely animation cancel in to other abilities or other ways to get more precision out of their use as positional tools.  

 

So like, if you melee or use an ability while you're mid-Slash Dash, you'll stop moving forward? Seems fair enough, although I wasn't aware that Super Jump had a limiter preventing you from acting while you're ascending...

[LukeAura]

So like, if you melee or use an ability while you're mid-Slash Dash, you'll stop moving forward? Seems fair enough, although I wasn't aware that Super Jump had a limiter preventing you from acting while you're ascending...

Essentially yes. Maybe carrying a bit of the leftover momentum but within a level you can account for in activating a melee strike or ability. 

Once you reach the apex of the jump you're free, but if you want to say melee slam half a second before then you can't. It's rather awkward that way.  

 

[Archwizard]

Essentially yes. Maybe carrying a bit of the leftover momentum but within a level you can account for in activating a melee strike or ability. 

Once you reach the apex of the jump you're free, but if you want to say melee slam half a second before then you can't. It's rather awkward that way.  

 

 

Well, I edited the OP and included the list in today's CHT, so here's hoping that change comes to pass.

[Elydir]

Anyway, hmm. I'm guessing the Vortex in your suggestion would do damage to Vauban himself, considering how you worded it? I'm not sure if I'm a fan of that. It'd prevent him from using certain weapons on the Vortex like the Amprex that require close quarters to work. 

 

You already cant use copter weps with Zephyr, Valkyr's Hystria limits the melee weapons you want to use, suggsetions for Slash Dadh to use melee damage will do the same, and people already use specific weapons with Anti Matter Drop, Banshee and Saryn prefer weps with accuracy, stealth frames want silent weps... This isn't new.

[taiiat]

You already cant use copter weps with Zephyr,

only while a Client. while you're the Host, her Aerodynamics change with Space Magic apparently.

 

your Inertia continues normally as a Host while as a Client you'll come to a halt and float in the air for a while.

 

 

it's a shame i can't do both on purpose, because each has it's useful merits.

[Noble_Cactus]

You already cant use copter weps with Zephyr, Valkyr's Hystria limits the melee weapons you want to use, suggsetions for Slash Dadh to use melee damage will do the same, and people already use specific weapons with Anti Matter Drop, Banshee and Saryn prefer weps with accuracy, stealth frames want silent weps... This isn't new.

 

I agree with you, but you misread my post.

 

The examples you listed demonstrate abilities that make certain classes of weapons better in the right hands. I thought that taiiat's version of Vortex might make AoE weapons worse when used with it, though we'd obviously have to see it in practice to really say for certain.

[taiiat]

thought that taiiat's version of Vortex might make AoE weapons worse when used with it, though we'd obviously have to see it in practice to really say for certain.

i don't think they'd be worse, but it wouldn't be as Easymode as it is now.

 

Enemies would only spend a short amount of time in the Vortex. you could still blow them all away, but you won't hit as many Enemies at once.

 

 

it still serves it's function of grouping Enemies up and removing their capability to attack us though, i think. it still fills that purpose and tactical purpose because they still spend time in the Vortex, just not infinite time.

 

 

i mean hell, Vortex actually Deletes Enemies that are in Vortex too long. that's just how one sided powerful it is.

 

 

it sounds like we don't see the facets quite the same, but i don't see AoE Weapons not being able to 'combo' with Vortex if Enemies only spend a short time in it, they just 'combo' not quite as well.

and throws Enemies around the map, that's always fun :D

[Noble_Cactus]

i don't think they'd be worse, but it wouldn't be as Easymode as it is now.

 

Enemies would only spend a short amount of time in the Vortex. you could still blow them all away, but you won't hit as many Enemies at once.

 

 

it still serves it's function of grouping Enemies up and removing their capability to attack us though, i think. it still fills that purpose and tactical purpose because they still spend time in the Vortex, just not infinite time.

 

 

i mean hell, Vortex actually Deletes Enemies that are in Vortex too long. that's just how one sided powerful it is.

 

 

it sounds like we don't see the facets quite the same, but i don't see AoE Weapons not being able to 'combo' with Vortex if Enemies only spend a short time in it, they just 'combo' not quite as well.

and throws Enemies around the map, that's always fun :D

 

Yeah, I think "worse" is too dramatic of a word for me to use. After thinking about it a bit I can see how they'd still be viable. You'd just have to be more on-point with how you manage your Vortex.

[Elydir]

I thought that taiiat's version of Vortex might make AoE weapons worse when used with it, though we'd obviously have to see it in practice to really say for certain.

 

I'm confused. Youre talking about taiiats version? thought you meant Archwizard's, since you replied to his.

[Noble_Cactus]

I'm confused. Youre talking about taiiats version? thought you meant Archwizard's, since you replied to his.

 

Oh, I see. That was poor quoting on my part, since I was referring to taiiat's Vortex but was also responding to something Archwizard said. My bad.

[Archwizard]

Going to admit I'm in the same boat as Annon, since I never got the impression that taiiat's version would damage the Vauban.

 

I'm guessing the Vortex in your suggestion would do damage to Vauban himself, considering how you worded it? 

[Noble_Cactus]

Going to admit I'm in the same boat as Annon, since I never got the impression that taiiat's version would damage the Vauban.

 

Oh, okay. That was your post that brought up Vortex possibly sucking Vauban inside. I must have thought that you meant the Vortex would damage him as well. I'm not sure why I thought that.

[Archwizard]

Oh, okay. That was your post that brought up Vortex possibly sucking Vauban inside. I must have thought that you meant the Vortex would damage him as well. I'm not sure why I thought that.

 

Probably because it was implied.

 

No idea whether or not it would actually damage him, but it would at least stun him until it ended. The point is that it's already an ability with a not terribly huge radius of actual effect that you can pitch long distances, but people still see fit to spray them every 3 feet so long as they have the energy (which has long since ceased to be an issue). It's supposed to push you to limit usage so that you actually have room to move.

 

Also wanted to point out that giving Vortex a target limit would likely mean you'll have two abilities in the arsenal intended for exactly the same purpose, the only difference in execution being that one balls up enemies for AoE and the other sets them up for headshots. It's not a terribly compelling difference.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Archwizard