Make Ash A Starter Frame!

[HAYABU5A]

u know what..

 

THIS IS A GREAT IDEA

 

pure genius really 

 

and so many new players are seeking that ninja experience, plus hes got that survivbility, it makes so much sense

[SquirmyBurrito]

Already beat this to a pulp the last time it was suggested.

 

Loki is indirect/support (one distract, one stealth, two support).

Ash is direct/assault (two damage, one stealth, one mobility).

 

You can't replace one with the other when talking about the choice of starter frames.

 

The only viable replacer is for Excalibur, and that isn't a good idea either.

Excalibur is direct/assault (two damage, one support, one mobility).

 

This person get's it.

Replacing Loki with another Excalibur-class frame isn't doing anything good for the starting choices. That limits the diversity.

 

IMO- If Loki was going to be replaced by anyone it should be Banshee or Oberon. Those two cater to playstyles that differ (less in Oberon's case) from the other two.

[Tatersail]

Ash needs more skill and better mods to become powerful, so is better as a late game frame, where more experienced players can use his teleport for mobility.

I agree ash lacks team skills

his smoke screen doesn't last as long but cost less, and works out the same "Invis per energy consumed", and it has the AOE stun element.

His 1 is actually pretty powerful compared to other lackluster 1's 1000 slash damage, and these can be used with shade and not break the cloak allowing for you to stealth solo a mission with just shade's cloak.

Tho I agree alot of "1's" in this game have no endgame use.

His teleport is amazing for a mobile player, and the ability to jump instantly into melee is great or melee weapons, and I think will be better in Melee 2.0 when melee becomes viable.

his AOE ultimate is... meh because of the duration but its 15x 2000 damage... over 4000 with mods and "Damage is unaffected by armor or enemy resistances." this actually up there as one of the strongest AOE ultimate's out there.

Loki makes sense a a starter frame because the longer invis helps less skilled players, Decoy lets them stand off and learn the game rather than rush in like ASH teleport , and radial disarm is more of an OH **** button.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Tatersail

[Seasonsofclarity]

This person get's it.

Replacing Loki with another Excalibur-class frame isn't doing anything good for the starting choices. That limits the diversity.

 

IMO- If Loki was going to be replaced by anyone it should be Banshee or Oberon. Those two cater to playstyles that differ (less in Oberon's case) from the other two.

 

Lemme see if I can break them down too.

 

Oberon-> Direct/Support (two damage, one F&F damage, one support/heal)

Banshee-> Indirect/Support (one knockdown/damage, two support, one channeled damage/stagger)

 

Mag replaced Volt at some point in the beta, which is:

Volt-> Direct/Assault (two damage, one support, one defense)

Mag-> Indirect/Assault (one knockdown/damage, two support, one damage)

 

Course the Mag/Volt change makes sense, cause Volt was combating with Excalibur's purpose.

 

Nyx-> Indirect/Support (one damage, one control, one distract, one defense/damage)

Nova-> Indirect/Support (one self-support, one damage, one mobility, one control)

 

Could probably go on, but I have a report I'm procrastinating on.

[Riasiru]

I do have to agree, not because Ash would be a good starter frame... Which he might be, but because Loki is a HORRIBLE starter frame. He requires far too much knowledge of the game mechanics and the proper mods to run smoothly for a new player to pick up and use without issue. He's one big trap... 

 

Having said that, Ash is more than capable of doing perma invisibility, too, and the radial stun effect on his is nice if you're taken off guard... Which new players will typically need to make use of.

 

 

Course the Mag/Volt change makes sense, cause Volt was combating with Excalibur's purpose.

 

They exchanged Volt for Mag because they wanted a female starter and she was a good proxy for Volt. Both are strong Corpus trumps.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Riasiru

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

As someone who started as Loki, I can truly say it was a bad choice.

 

Don't get me wrong, take a look at my avatar pic and you'll know what my favorite warframe is, by far. A prime can't come any sooner.

 

BUT

 

Boy, did i suffer, i survived apollodur by hiding, seriously lol, i would go invisible for 12 seconds, with some lucky the first out of two before i would die, in order to stay alive and try to be helpful to my team. The stories go on, but they all prove one thing, Loki is a bad starting warframe, its very descrpition says so, so why in the name of the Lord leave him as a starting warframe is beyond me.

 

+1 TC

[RealPandemonium]

1) Ash has no real late game use

Ash is great for Solo play, but when you are in a group he brings little to no utility to the group. His damage can't compare to frames like Volt and Rhino, hell even Oberon and Trinity have better damage output if played right.

This is the same situation with Excalibur. He's not terrible , by any means, but he's not really viable in late game if you have other options.

 

Blade Storm does 3140 damage that ignores armor to 15 enemies for only 25 energy.  How is that damage weak? At the same time Volt does weak damage to Grineer (which Ash specializes in killing.)

 

Rhino's damage buff (among other things) is what makes gives him damage, not his stomp (which is primarily a CC move.) 

 

Trinity's damage output is either a niche single-target nuke (WoL + Energy Vampire) or a way to double the damage of a launcher to three targets (Link+Blessing and shoot a bomb at melee range.) 

 

Oberon's radiation damage is useful vs heavy Grineer but the impact damage on Smite holds it back considerably (The health orbs are the draw here.) 

 

Excalibur's abilities all scale well except Radial Javelin, which needs some punch-through/damaging ragdoll to make it more effective as enemies get to high health levels.

[-TSA-OptimusGrind]

Yea great idea but wont work .. Ash too OP as starter frame.

Volt was a starter tenno but removed them :)

[Edgedemon]

Boy, did i suffer, i survived apollodur by hiding, seriously lol, i would go invisible for 12 seconds, with some lucky the first out of two before i would die, in order to stay alive and try to be helpful to my team. The stories go on, but t.hey all prove one thing, Loki is a bad starting warframe, its very descrpition says so, so why in the name of the Lord leave him as a starting warframe is beyond me

 

+1 TC

 

i was sure that being non-mandatory apollodorus wasn't meant to be tackled time after time before you learned the ropes, and modded yourself a bit. that said my brother started with loki and i started with excalibur and belive me he had a way easier time than i did

[Edgedemon]

rhino starter? hes way too powerful to be a starter, with a rhino in mercury or venus new players wouldn't need to learn to avoid damage which even rhino needs later on and all other frames always need

[SquirmyBurrito]

As someone who started as Loki, I can truly say it was a bad choice.

 

Don't get me wrong, take a look at my avatar pic and you'll know what my favorite warframe is, by far. A prime can't come any sooner.

 

BUT

 

Boy, did i suffer, i survived apollodur by hiding, seriously lol, i would go invisible for 12 seconds, with some lucky the first out of two before i would die, in order to stay alive and try to be helpful to my team. The stories go on, but they all prove one thing, Loki is a bad starting warframe, its very descrpition says so, so why in the name of the Lord leave him as a starting warframe is beyond me.

 

+1 TC

 

I guess everyone has a different starting experience. I've leveled a Loki to thirty three times (not counting forma re-levels) and I have never had this much trouble. I sold my first Loki because I needed room and at the time I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted to spend money on the game.

 

The description does not say Loki is a bad starting frame. It says he is 'desired by advanced players'. Asking 'why is Loki a starter frame' is like asking 'why is Excalibur a starter frame' or 'why isn't nekros a starter frame'. I wasn't aware that there was a list of features that a frame had to have to be included in the starting line-up. My understanding was that his purpose in the line-up was just to add another level of choice. Loki plays fairly differently than a mag or an excalibur.

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

I guess everyone has a different starting experience. I've leveled a Loki to thirty three times (not counting forma re-levels) and I have never had this much trouble. I sold my first Loki because I needed room and at the time I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted to spend money on the game.

 

The description does not say Loki is a bad starting frame. It says he is 'desired by advanced players'. Asking 'why is Loki a starter frame' is like asking 'why is Excalibur a starter frame' or 'why isn't nekros a starter frame'. I wasn't aware that there was a list of features that a frame had to have to be included in the starting line-up. My understanding was that his purpose in the line-up was just to add another level of choice. Loki plays fairly differently than a mag or an excalibur.

Well, the point is, without the right mods Loki is very hard to play with in the beggining, and I didnt prepare myself in advance to any mission, i just progressed normally, without grinding.

As for his description: advanced =/= begginer, says he is for advanced players and offers him to begginers, i was kinda lured to his design and the fancy description, i was a very good me3 player so i thought what the hell, why not.

Loki is indeed different from mag, and I am glad mag substituted volt on this regard, volt takes more strtegy than mag, so does Loki compared to ash, they both serve the stealth route, while ash is much easier to play with and offers a good skill selection for begginer players who doeasn't have good weapons at their disposal.

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

i was sure that being non-mandatory apollodorus wasn't meant to be tackled time after time before you learned the ropes, and modded yourself a bit. that said my brother started with loki and i started with excalibur and belive me he had a way easier time than i did

The main problem is the lack of a damage skill, i stocked up on lots and lots of rare mods by playing apollodorus and just staying invisible when i started getting the hang of the game, but i found myself being pretty useless after what, the 10 minute mark i wasn't able to kill the enemies, just avoid them and pray for my team to kill them, and to get energy orbs to keep me invisible.I didn't know about forma, had no serration on my mk1 braton, lato was useless and skana, lol.Wasn't until i purchased orthos with plat, because, like i said, i was a noob and knew nothing, that i started dishing some damage.

Edited March 25, 2014 by (PS4)DanteVincent

[SquirmyBurrito]

Well, the point is, without the right mods Loki is very hard to play with in the beggining, and I didnt prepare myself in advance to any mission, i just progressed normally, without grinding.

As for his description: advanced =/= begginer, says he is for advanced players and offers him to begginers, i was kinda lured to his design and the fancy description, i was a very good me3 player so i thought what the hell, why not.

Loki is indeed different from mag, and I am glad mag substituted volt on this regard, volt takes more strtegy than mag, so does Loki compared to ash, they both serve the stealth route, while ash is much easier to play with and offers a good skill selection for begginer players who doeasn't have good weapons at their disposal.

 

I started just like everyone else, without 'the right mods'. It wasn't really that hard. I progressed normally up to the point where I started seeing infested. Once I hit them I had to stop since my intel integrated graphics card couldn't handle the particle effects despite being on the lowest settings. It was only after that that I started grinding. And then only because there wasn't anything else I could do (I had no friends).

 

Being new to a game does not mean you can't be advanced. Many games (vindictus being the first example to pop into my head) offer starting choices that are geared towards more advanced players. Generally, when a game says 'for advanced players' it really just means 'hey guys, this one is a little more challenging'. That was the case with Loki.

And all this aside, the description does not say Loki is only for advanced players. It says they desire him, and all that really means is that he scales well. He isn't impossible for a newbie to pick up and play (I did it, and enjoyed it). Loki shouldn't be removed from the starters just because he has a nice description and you had trouble with him. Obviously you weren't (at the time) cut out for 'hard mode'. Ash is too much like excalibur to be a good fit for a starter.