Rng Is Always Terrible Game Design.

[Yezzik]

It starts out innocently enough. "Oh dear, better luck next time!" It makes you want to try again. Then before you know it you've stopped wanting to play the game because there's no point wasting your time trying to get what you want if the game is just going to keep giving you the middle finger in return.

 

So the developers implement an "upper limit" mechanic, that restricts how many times you have to run a particular piece of content before you get what you're after. You know that even if the game's coding dictates to you that your luck is of inferior quality, that your perseverance inevitably will be rewarded.

 

Warframe doesn't have that mechanic.

 

So Void runs become pointless, because what drops is always the same item you stopped needing months ago. Layer after layer of RNG cause you to doubt the Brakk's existence, as the Grustrag Three vomit Neurode after Neurode into your lap with disdain.

 

You get bored of having your luck dictated to you. You find yourself not wanting to play the game--not wanting to log on, even--because there's no point because you'll never get what you're after.

 

You start playing other games. You start giving other companies your money.

 

You don't go back. Why would you? You know full well what will happen if you do. Sure there may be new stuff to do, but you'll end up stuck in the same spot down the line--stuck running one or two specific bits of content to get something that actively refuses to drop for you.

 

Eventually you change your mind and try going back, inspired by advice to just play the game normally. Apparently you'll get whatever it is you're after organically. You're told to "just stop caring about it."

 

So you do. And you never see that thing you wanted ever again, because you stop actively maximising your chances, because RNG is horrible game design when it doesn't come with safeguard mechanics.

 

And because you never see that thing again, never see the content it comes from, the development time, effort, money and resources spent making it become wasted on you.

[vasRayya]

Because getting the brakk is literally the whole game

ok bye

[Magnar21]

Because getting the brakk is literally the whole game

ok bye

Is that all you saw? That he mentioned the Brakk? You missed the forest for the trees.

[vasRayya]

Is that all you saw? That he mentioned the Brakk? You missed the forest for the trees.

tl;dr hes buttblasted about how hard the brakk is to obtain

[Ogractor]

Oh look, another complaint without constructive feedback.

[Kymaru]

I admit you do have a point, but saying you don't like a mechanic is one thing. But presenting a permanent solutions is a different story all together.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Kymaru

[Lorane_Airwing]

Because getting the brakk is literally the whole game

ok bye

That's adorable.

 

 

Seriously, rng is a problem. it's the same reason all i have been doing i alerts when i actually feel like warframe would be worth my time to play :/ I want to play it. It can be such a good game, but this reliance on rng just sucks the life out of missions. What is the point of playing your 600th or so round of defense when you still haven't got what you set out to look for that WEEK. That is no reward through play, that is reward through chance. Where people who are not looking for that mod or part can have stacks of them, but people who want them dearly can only hope that the next run will be nice enough to give it to them. Yes, the Brakk is not the whole game, nor is that last paris prime part, but what is a game without being able to set a goal and achieve. Someone WANTS to get the Brakk, someone WANTS to get the boltor prime. Your post misses the fundamental goals people set for themselves to have fun in the game. While they may not be your goals they are still someones reason to pickup and play this game, the very same reason they have the will to put money in and support it. RNG kills that, it doesn't let you set goals because it is inherently random, there is nothing to work towards beyond a random chance that you may get it on your 601st run, or your 1000th run, or 10000th run! All While you sit on your mountain of fang prime blades and wonder: Why am I playing this?.

[Monolake]

no RNG s not terrible per se, ton of great games use it, implementation matters

Edited March 22, 2014 by Monolake

[Yezzik]

The thing is, RNG is terrible game design even when it works in your favour. Grind is much better.

 

Because if you get whatever it is you're after too quickly, you move onto something else and all the development time, resources, money and effort spent creating whatever content was in that particular level or area goes bye-bye.

 

Grind, however, is sort of a contract between developer and player. The developer gets to dictate how long a player has to stay in a particular part of their game if they want what comes out of it, in order to make the development process for that area worth it. Meanwhile, the player knows they don't have to stay any longer than X length of time before they get what it is they're there for.

 

RNG systems with upper limit mechanics are sort of like that, but there's always the risk the player can move on right away if the numbers roll in their favour.

 

Prime trading, as much as I like it for breathing new life into the game economy, was only a workaround for horrible Void RNG and droprates--for an RNG system with no upper limit mechanic.

 

What this game needs is grind--the ability for a player to go into a particular piece of content and know that at worst, even if all the RNG systems go against them, there will inevitably be a moment in time when they will have everything that particular level has to offer. We can't do that in Warframe.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Yezzik

[Magnar21]

no RNG s not terrible, ton of great games use it

It can serve it's purpose. But this is too extreme. Stop defending a broken mechanic by pointing at less extreme cases that work. As for why so few people propose solutions? I've tried advocating solutions in the past, but none got listened to. This method of RNG creates addicts, or it burns people at turns them away from the game. Hence why I play Hawken and GW2 now, and barely play Warframe at all.

[Xriborg]

The moment you're playing for the drops rather than the enjoyment of the game, you've already lost. Doing something you don't want to do for a reward isn't playing, it's work.

 

There are many systems that incentivize playing the same thing over and over again. RNG, token systems, etc. They all are there to get you to spend more time doing the same thing, to squeeze more game time out of the same content.

 

If you're playing ONLY for drops, you should stop playing and do something more valuable with your time.

[vasRayya]

It can serve it's purpose. But this is too extreme. Stop defending a broken mechanic by pointing at less extreme cases that work. As for why so few people propose solutions? I've tried advocating solutions in the past, but none got listened to. This method of RNG creates addicts, or it burns people at turns them away from the game. Hence why I play Hawken and GW2 now, and barely play Warframe at all.

Hawken is just as grindy, getting all the credits to buy and upgrade mechs. Not to mention it's super pay2win as well. But it's still pretty fun, only if you put some money into it though.

[Yezzik]

The moment you're playing for the drops rather than the enjoyment of the game, you've already lost. Doing something you don't want to do for a reward isn't playing, it's work.

 

There are many systems that incentivize playing the same thing over and over again. RNG, token systems, etc. They all are there to get you to spend more time doing the same thing, to squeeze more game time out of the same content.

 

If you're playing ONLY for drops, you should stop playing and do something more valuable with your time.

 

I'm not playing only for drops. I enjoy playing the game.

Doesn't mean I can't call out bad game design when I see it.

The Void especially seems designed to make players want to play other games instead.

[Kymaru]

The chances of someone playing a game without any incentive in said game is extremely low. If what Xriah said was the case, then why does DE make release weapons at all if all we need is the game without any reward. Take out all the drops,mods, keys or any sort of reward. Just give the player a gun and a few targets to hunt, see if you still "enjoy" the game when incentives that are apart of the game are taken out. 

Edited March 22, 2014 by Kymaru

[GottaGoFast]

[GottaGoFast]

The chances of someone playing a game without any incentive in said game is extremely low. If what Xriah said was the case, then why does DE make release weapons at all if all we need is the game without any reward. Take out all the drops,mods, keys or any sort of reward. Just give the player a gun and a few targets to hunt, see if you still "enjoy" the game when incentives that are apart of the game are taken out. 

Sounds like every FPS back in the day. Too bad those days are over.

[HideorEscape]

RNG is one of the main reasons why Warframe is a bad game, it makes it bad, not bad -> Terrible.

It doesn't matter how much TIME you have wasted, skill in this game doesn't matter, kills also don't matter.

Everything is focused on reward and mastery rank.

Everybody who is an "end game" veteran player is grinding to level weapons just for the mastery.

Rng is like a wall, an obstacle that you can't pass, blocking your way to get what you need

It always gives you what you already have but not what you need.

Rng is the reason that ruins all the fun and causes rage and disappointment.

Some people don't care or don't mind about this because they are so attached or addicted to this game that they simply don't feel the pain, don't care about other players, about how everybody wasted they're time.

I have played Warframe for more than +1200 hours and do you think that I got every prime and every special weapon?

NO I didn't, I gave up and simply I won't waste my time anymore on this game because it simply doesn't worth it.

You really have to be insane enough to continue playing this game with this RNG non-sense.

What sense does it make play the same mission for over 100 times and you still didn't earn what you need?

What sense does it make to waste 50 hours to grind/farm for a useless weapon that you will never use?

What do you accomplish with the time wasted because of time-eating rng?

 

I am trying to open these zombie player's mind who are so addicted that simply can't think, lost the ability to see sense, to see what's good or what's not good. Who cares to read all this? Who cares to answer?

[Kymaru]

Yea if stuff was like that, then the video game world would be perfect. But it's not perfect and never will be.

[Taranis49]

Old news, and yeah it's a massive problem.

 

Part of that problem being that some people (including DE, as past community hot topics have shown) seemingly don't comprehend what the idea of "hard" or "difficult" actually entails. Hint, "Hard" or "Difficult" implies something requiring skill or effort, not simply luck... and that's all that's actually rewarded by the current RNG system. It takes just as much effort or skill to pull the lever on a slot machine regardless of whether it pays out or not.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Taranis49

[Yezzik]

Old news

 

Old news just makes it all the more important for people to create topics about it, because that means the issue isn't getting resolved.

[HuzzelMuzzel]

RNG is making me to stop playing but read more in the forum, waiting for the news that something will change. I think we need skillbased rewards. Maybe a system where your skill determined the droprates would be good.

[Magnar21]

Hawken is just as grindy, getting all the credits to buy and upgrade mechs. Not to mention it's super pay2win as well. But it's still pretty fun, only if you put some money into it though.

Grindy, but no RNG. At least you know that you will eventually get everything. And this is coming from someone who has all but 2 mechs purchased.

[Lorane_Airwing]

Grind is not always equal to rng. Warframes rng is perfectly capable of never giving you a certain drop for as long as you play because it is pure RNG, there is no modification to the chances when you get items. The chances stay the same and thus you always have the same chance to never get an item be it bad luck, or the rng gods laughing at your effort.

 

Good rng is is something like Pseudorandom number generation where the percentile of items you recently collected goes down and ites you have not collected go up. meaning you will EVENTUALLY get it. As the chances grow with each reward you do not want instead of staying the same. As if using piling all your collected junk mods and parts up to climb over the rng wall. That would be grind, not rng like warframe.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Lorane_Airwing

[GuardWarg]

I'd say just move to a new game, if DE wanted to implement a better loot system they'd done it ages ago. It's just not hapening.

[PoorCensored]

no RNG s not terrible per se, ton of great games use it, implementation matters

 

I agree. XCOM:EU/EW uses it brilliantly and games like FTL are built on it. But Implementation matters...

 

The chances of someone playing a game without any incentive in said game is extremely low. If what Xriah said was the case, then why does DE make release weapons at all if all we need is the game without any reward. Take out all the drops,mods, keys or any sort of reward. Just give the player a gun and a few targets to hunt, see if you still "enjoy" the game when incentives that are apart of the game are taken out. 

 

I disagree. What you describe is the real test of a game. If you can give a player access to everything that exists in the game, and they can enjoy themselves for hours on end, you have made a good game. If you give the player everything in the game, and they are bored after a few minutes, then you have made a bad game.