I Think I Understand A Few Of De's Moves.

[-Pearl-]

 

I'm not going to list the moves DE made to make the game a bit more annoying. You can go find _Nugget's super post to find that. But it kinda does explain why RNG (among a few other things but I'm concentrating on RNG) has become just a big pile of bandaids instead of replaced with the brilliant token system. Lots of games use RNG (Mass Effect 3 MP anyone? How about Defiance? Borderlands 1 and 2?). I can't name any games off the top of my head that are both using a token system and has a crazy high sell rate that equals or surpasses ME3. Somebody below will name a dozen no doubt. Probably another MMO too since there aren't any other MMOs I play.

 

Either way. DE. It's understandable. BUT STOP. Keep being innovative with things like Melee 2.0 and it's subsequent twenty patches to get it to work. Stop putting bandaids on things. Take a tip from matpat up there and stop driving the gaming industry into the dirt.

Edited March 31, 2014 by -Vash-

[VoidPunch]

I highly doubt RNG is there for sells and intentionally being non innovative.

 

I'm pretty sure it is their deal with "instant gratification" that they mention a lot. Frankly, RNG keeps the game alive. If there was the desired token system, everyone would play enough missions to get enough tokens to get the weapons and frames they want as fast as they could. They would burn themselves out and have every thing they want and have no reason to play. The RNG/ random aspect of it is what keeps you playing. The hope of getting the last piece on your next run, the mystery. That is was keeps players going for it and ultimately keeps you from getting bored. Obviously people try to hard and burn themselves out, but without the RNG aspect of the void, everyone will indefinitely obtain all the primes as quick as they can, get bored, and complain about it. There is an actual reason why they haven't changed RNG, it's because it is good for the game and the players.

Edited March 31, 2014 by HandsOfnArtist

[Guest]

I highly doubt RNG is there for sells and intentionally being non innovative.

 

I'm pretty sure it is their deal with "instant gratification" that they mention a lot. Frankly, RNG keeps the game alive. If there was the desired token system, everyone would play enough missions to get enough tokens to get the weapons and frames they want as fast as they could. They would burn themselves out and have every thing they want and have no reason to play. The RNG/ random aspect of it is what keeps you playing. The hope of getting the last piece on your next run, the mystery. That is was keeps players going for it and ultimately keeps you from getting bored. Obviously people try to hard and burn themselves out, but without the RNG aspect of the void, everyone will indefinitely obtain all the primes as quick as they can, get bored, and complain about it. There is an actual reason why they haven't changed RNG, it's because it is good for the game and the players.

 

In other words, the game is boring and kept alive through gambling addiction.

 

It doesn't need to be that way, though. Luckily, it's not the case for me: I like actually playing the game, and don't grind for Primes/Corrupted mods/Brakktron/whatever.

[Vargras]

In other words, the game is boring and kept alive through gambling addiction.

 

It doesn't need to be that way, though. Luckily, it's not the case for me: I like actually playing the game, and don't grind for Primes/Corrupted mods/Brakktron/whatever.

Except it's like that for damned near every other game with a drop system of sorts. Those sure are boring, right?

[Ritchel]

rng and grind what keeps the players here,

 

moreso warframe to be top 10 most played.

[Drakontis]

Personally, I enjoy using the equipment more than grinding for it. I actually enjoy HAVING my equipment and being able to play with it. That's why I collect things. It's why I poured money into the game, because I LIKE having it all and being able to swap back and forth between my Penta, Braton Prime, Hind, etc. I don't like sitting here GETTING. THE. EXACT. SAME. BLOODY. THING. EVERY. SINGLE. KEY. 

[CapnFusterCluck]

It's so sad, but yeah... It's true. 

 

We are... creatures(?) that desire everything. We pretty much look at the outside shell but we don't look at the inside. Warframe is a great example. We see all these awesome weapons (Paris Prime, Orthos Prime, Boltor Prime, Rhino Prime, Brakk/Detron) and we want to acquire them. Nothing more. Once we do, it's just not fun anymore. Because we already have them. Games are fun when you win or you feel accomplished, because we've grown into a competitive society (or something like that). 

 

You could say "Oh, I play Trinity all the time for support". Sure, yeah. I'll give you that. But then that doesn't stop you from spamming 4 all the freaking time, then casting Link, then using your "OP-AF" Penta on yourself. Or you could play Nova for numbers and "support". Or even better, you can use Rhino and rush through everything while your teammates are aware of threats (yes, I'm looking at you Grineer sensor bar ._.; ). 

 

I'm not worried about rushing Primes and trying to feel "uber awesomez cuz i'm Rhino with the golden sheet skin". The only thing I'm really worried about is getting Polymers for my Kama ._.;

 

rng and grind what keeps the players here,

 

moreso warframe to be top 10 most played.

And that's the sad thing. Implement a token system, everyone gets what they want, no players. "GG DE, it's been a gud run with ya. I have everything and now your game is super boring". 

[(PSN)DavidBallZ]

I think the reason the RNG is so stingy in this game is because unlike other games that have a RNG system for loot, the stuff you find in Warframe is always static. Once you find that Split Chamber you're done forever looking for one(unless you want another one for Death Cube.) There's no leeway to "throw you a bone" by giving you "the okay version" of Split Chamber that gives you a 80% chance to fire an additional shot at max instead of "the best version"  that gives you 90%. 

 

 

The game doesn't need a token system. What it needs is more than (at max) two ways to obtain something you want by-yourself. 

Edited March 31, 2014 by (PS4)DavidBallZ

[WildJuice]

"GG DE, it's been a gud run with ya. I have everything and now your game is super boring". 

I'm already at that stage, and it's not because of RNG. It's the lack of purpose.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

-snip-

On the same token though (no pun intended), there's a massive problem when the only thing keeping players is that RNG/Grind. At least DE is attempting to add more than that with systems such as Melee 2.0 and the Focus system. I also agree that a certain amount of grind should be there, but the levels of RNG I think lean more on the overkill side of things.

Edited March 31, 2014 by BizarreFetalChimpanzee

[Anatolius]

I'm already at that stage, and it's not because of RNG. It's the lack of purpose.

I'm at that stage now as well

I hope and pray for melee 2.0. Something game changing. I don't care about weapons as much as these changes

[Guest]

Except it's like that for damned near every other game with a drop system of sorts. Those sure are boring, right?

 

I don't quite get what you're trying to say... but I'll just say that, even after I stopped grinding, WF is the only game around that has kept me this long... five times as long as the 200+ hours I put on Skyrim. No other loot-based game could keep me around for even one tenth as long; so yes, that sh*t gets old, fast.

But not Warframe. Somehow, this game is great, just running around and killing stuff with guns and swords and abilities, and I see it's going to become even better with melee 2.0, Focus, and the Badlands. In my eyes, relying heavily on the grind should not be necessary... and it would be a shame if it turned out I'm wrong and the majority of people dislike the game so much they only stay around because they're addicted to gambling.

[CapnFusterCluck]

I'm already at that stage, and it's not because of RNG. It's the lack of purpose.

Lack of purpose? 

Games are created to have fun. And fun these days means winning. 

 

I would hope people would at least see that. 

 

Games like LoL or DoTA are fun because they are games that challenge you in a shorter period of time. If you win, it's fun. If you lose, it's not fun. RL example: Kids at my school play League and form pub-stomp teams because it's "fun" to win.

 

In today's society, fun comes from having a sense of accomplishment. Once you pretty much accomplished everything, there's no more fun to be had. 

 

On the same token though (no pun intended), there's a massive problem when the only thing keeping players is that RNG/Grind. At least DE is attempting to add more than that with systems such as Melee 2.0 and the Focus system. I also agree that a certain amount of grind should be there, but the levels of RNG I think lean more on the overkill side of things. 

I wholeheartedly agree. While RNG is great in a few aspects, putting too many resources into it will be a bit overkill. 

 

But then again, I play this game cause it's just fun. Actually trying to be a Ninja with Ash, Dread, Despair and Hate is super fun. 

Edited March 31, 2014 by ikillyou8196

[Vargras]

I don't quite get what you're trying to say... but I'll just say that, even after I stopped grinding, WF is the only game around that has kept me this long... five times as long as the 200+ hours I put on Skyrim. No other loot-based game could keep me around for even one tenth as long; so yes, that sh*t gets old, fast.

But not Warframe. Somehow, this game is great, just running around and killing stuff with guns and swords and abilities, and I see it's going to become even better with melee 2.0, Focus, and the Badlands. In my eyes, relying heavily on the grind should not be necessary... and it would be a shame if it turned out I'm wrong and the majority of people dislike the game so much they only stay around because they're addicted to gambling.

For almost every multiplayer game with loot involved (Warframe, Diablo, any MMORPG, ME3 MP, etc.), there is RNG tied to the loot itself. It's just how you keep people playing.

[SolidSp33d]

Again with treating RNG like it's a plague and romanticizing token systems?

[SolidSp33d]

For almost every multiplayer game with loot involved (Warframe, Diablo, any MMORPG, ME3 MP, etc.), there is RNG tied to the loot itself. It's just how you keep people playing.

 

This. Well it's now how you keep people playing, rather than it's what makes it loot in the first place. It's what drives an economy in the first place.

 

Token systems in a good loot game are only there to get you some guaranteed stuff to help you tackle higher level content. NOT for everything and to get you the best gear. It defeats the purpose otherwise.

 

The game's loot distribution systems and drop tables need work, we all know that. Saying it's because of RNG is incredibly ignorant. Just like anything there is good and bad RNG. They need to work on it.

Edited March 31, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[Guest]

For almost every multiplayer game with loot involved (Warframe, Diablo, any MMORPG, ME3 MP, etc.), there is RNG tied to the loot itself. It's just how you keep people playing.

 

Really? I thought people played games because they were fun. Guess I woke up in the wrong universe today, one filled with gambling addicts. Oh well... luckily that doesn't seem to prevent the devs from also working on other interesting features... like novel weapons that need a bit of skill and brain to use, bosses that require you to learn their moves and change your tactics. I'm quite eager to see what melee 2.0 brings.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

This. And it's more than how you keep people playing. It's what makes it loot in the first place. It's what drives an economy in the first place.

 

Token systems in a good loot game are only there to get you some guaranteed stuff to help you tackle higher level content. NOT for everything and to get you the best gear. It defeats the purpose otherwise.

Before I state what I'm about to throw out here, I'm gonna say this: I'm not claiming to either side on this, but rather, I am stating merely what I have observed in the community.

 

The clashes of how RNG/loot/etc should be handled seem to stem from the fact that the community here is split into two major "factions," for lack of a better word; those "factions" being players that come from MMORPGs and then players that come from TPS/FPS. More specifically, the MMORPG players see the RNG and have a general consensus of "this is fine, there's no issue here," while the players from the shooter side of the gaming industry are often more adept to rigid unlock systems, ie: get to level X, unlock Y weapon/gadget/vehicle/etc. This of course results in almost nothing but bickering and a growing schism in the community, rather than a legitimate, well debated discussion on how reward systems can be improved in this game.

Edited March 31, 2014 by BizarreFetalChimpanzee

[SolidSp33d]

Before I state what I'm about to throw out here, I'm gonna say this: I'm not claiming to either side on this, but rather, I am stating merely what I have observed in the community.

 

The clashes of how RNG/loot/etc should be handled seem to stem from the fact that the community here is split into two major "factions," for lack of a better word; those "factions" being players that come from MMORPGs and then players that come from TPS/FPS. More specifically, the MMORPG players see the RNG and have a general consensus of "this is fine, there's no issue here," while the players from the shooter side of the gaming industry are often more adept to rigid unlock systems, ie: get to level X, unlock Y weapon/gadget/vehicle/etc. This of course results in almost nothing but bickering and a growing schism in the community, rather than a legitimate, well debated discussion on how reward systems can be improved in this game.

 

I agree with you completely.

It's the same reason the arguments over trading, particularly prime trading, happen as well.

Edited March 31, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[Agrissa88]

I am come from sims and something not fps or mmo games but i see some problem here. The randomity needs to this game on aspect if you can reach everything then no more reason to play but the randomity mean also you have chances to find or not find your desired stuff. The deeper problem with this game is the gamble and this is mostly comes because this game not mean anything just grind to reach more and more stuff after the end you can't do anything.

 

The token system also good choice but with playing you can earn enough to get weapons other hand the devs won't earn any money to improve their game and paid the bills. The innovation factor here the community mainly who can inspire the devs to make what they want but often they cannot fullify our wants and someone every new updates burn out and leave the game.

 

My point of view this game more need a monthly subscription system with 5-10 dollar / month to enjoy the online part and be innovative the game. The only problem with this the free to play is free to try, the motto also free (ninjas play free) and the devs can earn more money with it more like have now 5-6 million people who monthly pay that small amount to enjoy the game. 

 

To keep this game innovative need a strong community who if want something then they can work together or maybe pay for it just reach that stuffs which can improve the fun factor in this game. The problem also the community because some say yes some will say no and there is no clue it's the (grineer) diversity. 

[Drakontis]

     Quite honestly, the WHOLE reason that I got so into Warframe was the LACK of RNG based weapons. I HATE HATE HATE RNG systems for weapons. Games like Borderlands(2), Dungeon Fighter Online, most MMORPGs that I've played, anything that relies on RNG drops for weapons is highly aggravating for me when it comes to stats. The reason I was so into Warframe was that I can actually build the weapons just by gathering some easy to find components. Fantastic.

    The void started out relatively fine. Yes, the Reaper Blade was atrociously rare at first, but that was fixed. This was before the huge dilution problem. It got a little more difficult with Mag Prime and those weapons. I completely skipped Ember Prime and Co. in favor of getting the Misa Prime Syandana. Burston was a little harder, but not completely atrocious. But this latest group of weapons have been unnecessarily difficult to obtain. I've ran at least 15 or so T2 Survival missions and gotten ONE Gauntlet. Most of these have been up to 40 minutes. I now have 14 Mag Prime Chassis blueprints. FOURTEEN. That is seven missions, often consecutive, in which I have gotten TWO Mag Prime Chassis within the same mission at 20 and 40 minutes. Not to mention any times that were failed. Not to mention any that I have traded away for some reason. This is ridiculous. It IS a problem. 

Maybe this problem plagues older players more than newer players, but a game needs to cater to ALL players, not just new AND not just old. But to everyone. Unfortunately, this triple to quadruple layer of RNG is questionably good and bad. RNG systems can be completely horrible. When you get the same thing over and over again, it becomes really depressing. It increases burnout rate and it decreases desire to play. The only reason I personally came back to this game is due to my financial and emotional investment in the game. And because I enjoy the gameplay more than I dislike the grind. In fact, if you were to completely eliminate the grind, the odds of me playing something else are slim to none in regular circumstances. I actually ENJOY playing this game and playing WITH the weapons, not FOR the weapons. I may be an outlier on that graph, but still...

A token system truly benefits everyone. Even the developers. It will increase the desire to play just for the sake of playing instead of burning people out on grinding a completely horrible system. They could even sell token packs for straight money or for platinum, either way is a benefit to them. Different tiers of keys can be run for different amounts of tokens and new weapon parts can be sold for higher amounts of tokens and then be reduced over time. (Think like League of Legends champions starting out at 6300 IP and then slowly reducing but at a more reasonable rate). 

[Vargras]

My point of view this game more need a monthly subscription system with 5-10 dollar / month to enjoy the online part and be innovative the game. The only problem with this the free to play is free to try, the motto also free (ninjas play free) and the devs can earn more money with it more like have now 5-6 million people who monthly pay that small amount to enjoy the game. 

This is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard on these forums, and that's saying a lot.

[ToeSama]

The game's loot distribution systems and drop tables need work, we all know that. Saying it's because of RNG is incredibly ignorant. Just like anything there is good and bad RNG. They need to work on it.

 

The problem is less that there IS RNG, and more that everything of absolutely true importance is tied TO said RNG. With the mechanical mess of the game's combat system, without certain mods, you drag behind in a seemingly never ending hell of suck and failure until you praise RNGesus hard enough and he permits you to enter the glorious bounty that is "key-damage-mod-name-here". The weapon acquisition issues are a pain in the &#! for ultimately little reward, but they are at least forgivable and at most forgettable. Mod RNG is a work of goddamned evil if ever anyone saw any of it, and major aspects of it should be condemned to a hell the likes of which can't even be described for fear of releasing it upon the innocents of the world. Especially if they want to keep the damage system wallowing in the pool of crap they tossed it into shortly after its release (makes me fear what Melee 2.0 will actually portend for the future of the game)...

 

This is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard on these forums, and that's saying a lot.

 

Only in part. The problem with the F2P model is that you are banking on keeping consumers complacent enough to keep ratings high and revenue coming in. Sadly, Warframe has staggered backwards hard with the past four major updates, and a lot of its luster has worn off with the realization that it's not living up to its potential after having all but squandered a good year of time pumping out more content instead of making content actually MEAN anything.

 

Revenue is needed for the game to improve ultimately, because folks got to eat. But the means by which they have been making a large portion of that revenue hinges upon either laziness or absolute frustration, rather than any sort of product satisfaction. A buy-in sort of low cost subscription option that gives players a few perks here and there to keep supporting the game would be a better idea than the Prime Bundles and the like, where only those with truly disposable income or no real life obligations can even afford it.

Edited March 31, 2014 by ToeSama

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

-snip-

I've nothin' against supporting a game and its developers, but I'm just gonna have to say Hell No with regards to a paid subscription. 

[Agrissa88]

Much better than pay 5-10 dollar to all like you pay same only for a gun :)