Melee 2.0 Is An Excellent Foundation But It Needs More Depth

[Deidaku]

DE has succeded in making it viable ( huzzah! :D) 

 

But this system is already showing some problems , and I wanted to ask some question to the community about them.

 

stances are not deep enough. 

- Let me be clear , now that the drop rates have been fixes. kind of. I've managed to get my hands on the rare dual swords stance, a scythe stance , Staff and machete ones.

 

They are all awesome but i've got a feeling that some could have been merged or could be more complex.

The machete stance (uncommon one ) feels really too similar to the basic non stance attack pattern, which is really dissapointing .

 

If I can recall in a previous devstream one of the devs said they delved too deep into combos, so they simplified it. I think they over simplified , 2 combos per stance really gets old ...Fast.  3 for uncommons and 4 or 5 for the rare ones would have been better.
 

And Here's an idea to expand on the combo system :) =

 

Why  not have combos that require channeling and normal attacks alternation  so that the stances could branch out much more =

 

let's say N for normal  and C for channel.

you's get lore complex chains like

 

N N C ^C N C and stuff you'd see in a soul calibur game ( not that complex though ) X)

 

what do you guys think?

Edited April 12, 2014 by Deidaku

[Varzy]

DE has succeded in making it viable ( huzzah! :D) 

 

But this system is already showing some problems , and I wanted to ask some question to the community about them.

 

stances are not deep enough. 

- Let me be clear , now that the drop rates have been fixes. kind of. I've managed to get my hands on the rare dual swords stance, a scythe stance , Staff and machete ones.

 

They are all awesome but i've got a feeling that some could have been merged or could be more complex.

The machete stance (uncommon one ) feels really too similar to the basic non stance attack pattern, which is really dissapointing .

 

If I can recall in a previous devstream one of the devs said they delved too deep into combos, so they simplified it. I think they over simplified , 2 combos per stance really gets old ...Fast.  3 for uncommons and 4 or 5 for the rare ones would have been better.

 

And Here's an idea to expand on the combo system :) =

 

Why  not have combos that require channeling and normal attacks alternation  so that the stances could branch out much more =

 

let's say N for normal  and C for channel.

you's get lore complex chains like

 

N N C ^C N C and stuff you'd see in a soul calibur game ( not that complex though ) X)

 

what do you guys think?

Channeling dependent combos, eh? I like that thought!

[VKhaun]

No... sadly I have to say no...

 

I love depth, and I think depth is what you're talking about, but Warframe is already too complex for it's audience. More than one person I've reffered has quit or played less because they felt the game is complicated. Every time they ask a question I have to explain a system, mod type, slot, upgrade path etc. Every time they fight something new they need a crash course in resists and damage types, which leads to more questions about where to find stuff...

 

Maybe after the devs get around to some kind of New Player 2.0, where people have a concise and complete presentation of the game and a collection of basic stuff so they don't feel pulled in ten directions we can explore adding more depth, but right now Melee 2.0 is exactly where it needs to be IMO. For the new player it's just swapping to the weapon. As they go on they discover stance mods and get a neat combo. Late game when damage doesn't pwn everything they might care about specific stats and modifiers on the stance, but it doesn't need to be listed.

 

Come back and ask again when people are rank 25 and talking about what kind of epic stuff should become available around Rank 30 for the true Grandmasters of the Tenno.

Edited April 12, 2014 by VKhaun

[Zhoyzu]

i like it as it is because it isnt overly complex for no reason. Warframe doesnt give me the time to sit there and execute complex combos anyways. the game pace is too fast for that. 

 

 

also I rebound my melee key years ago because i prefer to hit things. Your suggestions dont work well with alt keybinds.

 

E was such a bad assignment for the melee button its ridiculous.

 

 

if the system is overly complicated, it will act as a deterrent. Especially in warframe where its not a melee only game.

"why spend all that effort to look cool hitting a single target when i can just 1080 no scope soma bullet barf them with out looking in less then a second" - warframe masses

Edited April 12, 2014 by Zhoyzu

[Deidaku]

No... sadly I have to say no...

 

I love depth, and I think depth is what you're talking about, but Warframe is already too complex for it's audience. More than one person I've reffered has quit or played less because they felt the game is complicated. Every time they ask a question I have to explain a system, mod type, slot, upgrade path etc. Every time they fight something new they need a crash course in resists and damage types, which leads to more questions about where to find stuff...

 

Maybe after the devs get around to some kind of New Player 2.0, where people have a concise and complete presentation of the game and a collection of basic stuff so they don't feel pulled in ten directions we can explore adding more depth, but right now Melee 2.0 is exactly where it needs to be IMO. For the new player it's just swapping tot he weapon. As they go on they discover stance mods and get a neat combo. Late game when damage doesn't pwn everything they might care about specific stats and modifiers on the stance, but it doesn't need to be listed.

THis is more of a new player experience issue but i agree mate. 

 

my suggestion would be only useful if the new players get the hang of the game fast. Because right now the experience is terrible. Earth is inhumanely hard for newcomers.

 

So you're saying its should eb the priority? then +1 New players first man , the tenno always need fresh blood >:)

 

advanced compelxity later 

[Naqel]

It dose not need more complexity.

It needs a purpose(and a new control scheme).

 

Because currently, all those fancy combos do is a less convenient way of dealing damage.

[Scherhardt]

It's a no for me as well.

Warframe won't be as unique in it's way anymore if we push further down combo complexity.

It will be like a copy of some hack n' slash games.

 

What I want to happen in the future of melee..

~As time goes maybe add 1-2 more stance mods for each weapon type.. because 2 stance mods is too small for variety in a single weapon type.

     -Maybe categorize stance mods into:

           -Single-target.

           -Multi-target.

           -Defensive.

           -Stealth??

~Expand stance mods from 3LVLS -> 5LVLS adding more combo to them.

~Add melee tutorial.

~Further polishing.  

 

~Forgot the mention... making agile/noble animation sets to affect melee.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Scherhardt

[Saenol]

More complexity? No, this is the last thing Melee 2.0 needs.

 

More depth? Absolutely.

 

Arbitrarily more complex button mashing combos are not needed. Warframe does not need to be the next Street Fighter or Tekken. This would not improve the game. If combos need to be expanded upon, they should be intuitive.

[Deidaku]

I think i need to rename the OP. I'm mistaking Depth and complexity Oo

[iG0ku]

a suggestion :

delete all damage melee mod

 

keep only combo mod for melee

 

combine those combo as you want

[Ttariel]

Well yes and no

 

Yes because Melee 2.0 really didnt change much with the combos

No because it would make it even harder for new player.

 

For now i would be happy if the combo counter would rank up with higher numbers too.

Im not gonna attack a 100 Heavy Gunner directly and the 4 seconds just go away with my 60 combo.

 

Just +1 second every 10 hits or something. Or let the combo drop in numbers and not all at once. 

[Deidaku]

a suggestion :

delete all damage melee mod

 

keep only combo mod for melee

 

combine those combo as you want

the original concept was supposed to be something like that but they scrapped it

[Greyryder]

It'd be nice if the stances were actually in the game. I'm beginning to think they're some kind of cruel hoax.

[Otaiken]

Complexity does not equal depth. Just wanted to point that out.

[NikolaiLev]

3 for uncommons and 4 or 5 for the rare ones would have been better.

 

This, I dislike.  Rares should not be better.  Redirection is a common mod but it's just as important as Fleeting Expertise.  Uncommon stances should be equally viable choices, so that there's more variety.

 

Beyond that, I fully agree.  There need to be more combos to each stance.

[Deidaku]

Complexity does not equal depth. Just wanted to point that out.

Agreed : edited my OP

I'm not english so I may have messed up the definition X)

[NikolaiLev]

Complexity does not equal depth. Just wanted to point that out.

 

Complexity can add depth, though, and is often the best way to do so.  It just means that when we add more combos, or more ways to do combos, the end result combos should have different roles than existing combos.

 

One combo to deal with crowds, one to deal with single targets, one to deal guaranteed procs, one that affords mobility... the list goes on.

[Naqel]

Complexity can add depth, though, and is often the best way to do so. 

 

Stop. No.

Adding complexity is always the worst way to add depth.

 

You only ever need as much complexity as is the minimum necessary to support the depth you're aiming for.

 

Currently Melee 2.0 has neither depth not complexity.

It just has an incredibly inconvenient controll scheme that only serves some eyecandy animations.

 

First step would be to fix the rest of the game so that it can support more depth within the existing mechanics(there's a lot of work there), then you can start thinking about Melee 2.5 or 3.0 or whatever other silly ideas people might have.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Naqel

[OblivionNecroninja]

Yes. This, or something like it, is what Melee 2.0 needs: something to make the combos more than just mashing and holding E. So that there can be more combos per stance.