Health And Hp Needs Balancing After The Last Hotfix

[neKroMancer]

Not sure if I understand. What will UD8 offer?

Fusion core still drop in low level planet. Ability can be upgraded that way without much problem.

[Scowlface2]

Where did these parts I bolded come from? You're inventing these things yourself, generating a strawman of epic proportions. I did not say I would go away. I didn't even imply it, or suggest that I wouldn't purchase platinum, or anything. Plain nothing.

Ohhh, so you didn't say this in reference to people who found the game too hard before the update.

You're invoking some ellusive "majority of players" that we're not seeing.

So now you're the majority? Tell me. Have you run a poll to determine how many people actually agree with your stance?

I did not say screw everyone else - I said that I think the highest level missions in the game should be doable but hard, and that it's correct that they are hard.

Except you want the boosted health and shield numbers to go. Let me tell you how it used to be like playing on say... Eris, without any shield or health mods. If you fall down, you die. If you stumble, you die. If you get sneezed at, you die. Phorid? If you're not a Trinity with energy siphon, you die, because his AOE yell will no sell your shields and eat away at your health.

Even with the boosts, if you stumbled even once, really easy since all their hits have a high chance of doing so, they'd easily mob and tear you to shreds.

And if you're playing solo? Like I do because I frequently have to pause to attend to other matters? Well sucks to be me does it? My opinion, and those who disagree with you, don't matter do they? They're not the 'majority' even though the number of people who disagree with your stance on this thread outnumber your supporters.

Mind you, these are for infested, which at least you can run from and jump on boxes to avoid. Try doing that against high level Grineer or Corpus and their walkers.

I saw what you posted in the other thread. As if Hyena is any comparison.

When did I said I was the only one who matters, and that I was a pro, and that non pros had to go away or something like that? I never suggested such a thing.

You don't have to claim to be a pro. Your attitude displays as much. Especially your response to MJ12's complaint about being instantly vaporized by enemy fire. 'Use your powers' you said. Reasonable advice, except for the whole instant death hitscan weapon thing on opening the door. Guess the next thing you'll suggest is that people use crystal balls to tell the future so they'll know to turn on their powers in advance.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Scowlface2

[CaligoIllioneus]

Ohhh, so you didn't say this in reference to people who found the game too hard before the update.

So now you're the majority? Tell me. Have you run a poll to determine how many people actually agree with your stance?

If you had payed attention to the previous-to-last update (7.6) there were way more people complaining about the game being easy than people happy with the amount of HP and shields added. Most people were of a moderate "I like the passive increase, but it's too much" position, like myself.

I posted that back then.

Except you want the boosted health and shield numbers to go. Let me tell you how it used to be like playing on say... Eris, without any shield or health mods. If you fall down, you die. If you stumble, you die. If you get sneezed at, you die. Phorid? If you're not a Trinity with energy siphon, you die, because his AOE yell will no sell your shields and eat away at your health.

Even with the boosts, if you stumbled even once, really easy since all their hits have a high chance of doing so, they'd easily mob and tear you to shreds.

Phorid scream, Hyena missiles, Kela's ghost bombs, etc are all abilities that need to be reworked. I agree on that. Doesn't mean that players have to be overbuffed to the point where they can single handedly take on everything easily.

And if you're playing solo? Like I do because I frequently have to pause to attend to other matters? Well sucks to be me does it? My opinion, and those who disagree with you, don't matter do they? They're not the 'majority' even though the number of people who disagree with your stance on this thread outnumber your supporters

In a way it does suck to be you because you're only one person, one warframe and not four. By definition four people will have less dificulty in dealing with a mission. But it doesn't suck that much: The missions are still doable, even if they take a lot of effort.

Mind you, these are for infested, which at least you can run from and jump on boxes to avoid. Try doing that against high level Grineer or Corpus and their walkers.

I saw what you posted in the other thread. As if Hyena is any comparison

I did Hyena because someone else said it killed you in two hits. I also repeated this numerous times but these "People that Disagree" misunderstand it on purpose. Suddenly they lose a lot of credibility.

You don't have to claim to be a pro. Your attitude displays as much. Especially your response to MJ12's complaint about being instantly vaporized by enemy fire. 'Use your powers' you said. Reasonable advice, except for the whole instant death hitscan weapon thing on opening the door. Guess the next thing you'll suggest is that people use crystal balls to tell the future so they'll know to turn on their powers in advance.

You never get instant death when you open a door. It's a gross exaggeration. The enemies take a second or so to start firing. Some do shoot fast, but others take their time. When you add the time they take to chew through the shields and HP you suddenly have enough time to run for cover and rethink how you will take on the room. Also, there are in fact not one but two crystal balls: Enemy Radar artifact, and Enemy Sense mod. Both of these things help to avoid these kind of ambushes.

Also, one shouldn't open a door to a suspicious room and jump inside. You stay to the side of the door so you can move away if danger arises, and you check the amount of enemies. If there's a swarm of them you can't just stay there in the open shooting them one by one. Or you run with one of the two crystal balls so you know it in advance.

Edited April 4, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus

[Scowlface2]

If you had payed attention to the previous-to-last update (7.6) there were way more people complaining about the game being easy than people happy with the amount of HP and shields added. Most people were of a moderate "I like the passive increase, but it's too much" position, like myself.

I posted that back then.

Funny how you seem to be outnumbered over here by a very large margin where the very issue is being discussed. It's early, so maybe the ratio will be different, but I doubt that.

Phorid scream, Hyena missiles, Kela's ghost bombs, etc are all abilities that need to be reworked. I agree on that. Doesn't mean that players have to be overbuffed to the point where they can single handedly take on everything easily.

I like how you jumped on one small detail and then ignored the rest of the point.

Without using the AI exploit and without shield or health mods (before the passive boost patch), doing the high tier missions against the infested is impossible. Enemies frequently killed you in 2-3 hits and they had a high probability of making stumble on top of that. Don't get hit? Easier said than done when the spawn system dumps upwards of 20 infested at any one time.

In a way it does suck to be you because you're only one person, one warframe and not four. By definition four people will have less dificulty in dealing with a mission. But it doesn't suck that much: The missions are still doable, even if they take a lot of effort.

No, without the passive boosts they were impossible unless you exploited the AI with boxes. And if that's still your answer, then you are in effect saying "screw the casuals and the solos"

I did Hyena because someone else said it killed you in two hits. I also repeated this numerous times but these "People that Disagree" misunderstand it on purpose. Suddenly they lose a lot of credibility.

I'd tell you to solo Eris with the old 100 base shield and health system then, but that's no longer viable.

You never get instant death when you open a door. It's a gross exaggeration. The enemies take a second or so to start firing. Some do shoot fast, but others take their time. When you add the time they take to chew through the shields and HP you suddenly have enough time to run for cover and rethink how you will take on the room. Also, there are in fact not one but two crystal balls: Enemy Radar artifact, and Enemy Sense mod. Both of these things help to avoid these kind of ambushes.

So now you're saying that to play on the high level, people have to be locked into a specific loadout. If DE wants to encourage mix and match play, rather than twinking, this is the worst way to go about it.

Also, one shouldn't open a door to a suspicious room and jump inside. You stay to the side of the door so you can move away if danger arises, and you check the amount of enemies. If there's a swarm of them you can't just stay there in the open shooting them one by one. Or you run with one of the two crystal balls so you know it in advance.

This might be sound advice if the spawn system doesn't have the tendency to spawn groups behind you without warning in the middle of a firefight.

[MJ12]

Hey CaligoIllioneus, I just beat a "high-level" mission with a buffed Vay Hek. I think the new balance changes are actually fantastic now. I really, really enjoyed having to hide behind crates plinking at single Grineer.

I really really enjoyed having to pause for 20 seconds cowering like a gigantic pussy because my shields went down after two bursts of fire.

I really enjoyed having to cheese the boss by kiting him around a bunch of energy pickups while using Contagion for 2 minutes straight.

I really enjoyed dying because four Grineer spawned behind me and I had nowhere to hide.

I really, really enjoyed my melee weapons, with their fantastic animations and visceral takedowns, being utterly useless.

I really, really enjoyed being totally incapable of doing anything but playing this game like another cover shooter.

I really, really enjoyed how the difficulty stopped me from using anything but defensive powers.

I really, really enjoyed how enemies do so much damage that I just stopped having fun fighting them and speedran to the exit.

I really, really enjoyed the fact that there are people who consider this 'fun'.

Oh wait I didn't enjoy a single one of these. So you know, I'll just reiterate this again. This change is terrible. No amount of 'advice' from you will change that playing Warframe as horror game where you hide fearing single trash enemies is an awful change to a game that was fun because it let you run riot against dozens of guys, viably using melee against them despite being massively outnumbered, with ridiculously awesome powers and a great aesthetic.

[Hippaforalkus]

Honestly...players don't deserve more HP just because they grind and their suits automatically level up. If you want extra HP or shields, you SHOULD have to upgrade them yourself. Those upgrades should take slots. It's just as nonsensical as weapons 'leveling up' and suddenly doing more damage, without ever installing mods.

If you invest in your shield and health mods, you should be able to turn any warframe into a bullet-sponge, and go soak up an insane amount of enemy fire. A few of them will be innately better at it (such as the Rhino) because of the special abilities that come attached to them. The game should be balanced so that 100/100 is the norm at lower levels, and still only MILDLY squishy at endgame content. Enemy damage should go up MAYBE 20% from player start to endgame.

The only things that should be changing by any statistically significant margin are perhaps the number of spawned enemies and the rate at which they spawn (because an endgame player can knock them dead much faster with hyper-modded weapons). Or, if we wanted to make things a bit more boring, maybe keep enemy count the same as level goes up, but higher level ones just happen to have more HP, and thus require highly modded weapons to kill them quickly?

The game should also be balanced so that solo causes 'normal' spawns. If there are four players, the number of enemies should be quadrupled. The AI should support things like probability of target engagement and splitting fire (as to not focus fire and absolutely overwhelm even the tankiest of all tanks). If someone is deliberately going in first and drawing attention, they should have a higher probability of getting attacked - meaning that the tank might 'succeed' in drawing aggro from...five, maybe six enemies, under ordinary circumstances? This way the survivability of DPS builds actually matters, while tanking simultaneously still matters.

The patch made the game worse in every single way that possibly mattered. Whoever designed this patch either needs to learn how to use a calculator, or how to game design. Maybe both. They had a GREAT game going, then some idiot decided to parrot every other MMO on the planet. Epic fail.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Hippaforalkus

[CaligoIllioneus]

Just throwing a wild idea out there, I haven't thought about it much yet so don't use it to defeat my other arguments...hehehe.

What if these HP/shield mods used the Foundry system?

I mean, upgrading equipment using the fountry and some materials. The materials needed need to be very thought out so there's some progression early missions -> late missions without making it too linear.

For example, right now you have a level X warframe, supercharged or not.

With this change you would have a level X warframe, supercharged or not, with improved shielding rank Y and improved resistance (HP) rank Z.

Edited April 4, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus

[Ronyn]

Honestly...players don't deserve more HP just because they grind and their suits automatically level up. If you want extra HP or shields, you SHOULD have to upgrade them yourself. Those upgrades should take slots.

This statement is illogical.

By leveling up you ARE earning the upgrades yourself.

The person who is putting in the time and effort is earning the resulting enhancment.

Those upgrades should take slots.

because?

Enemy damage should go up MAYBE 20% from player start to endgame.

The only things that should be changing by any statistically significant margin are perhaps the number of spawned enemies and the rate at which they spawn (because an endgame player can knock them dead much faster with hyper-modded weapons).

So you have decided to severely limit the level of vertical progression that happens and you want all design choices to be made around that.

That could work but its not the only (or best) way to go. It is simply another way to go.

The game should also be balanced so that solo causes 'normal' spawns. If there are four players, the number of enemies should be quadrupled. The AI should support things like probability of target engagement and splitting fire (as to not focus fire and absolutely overwhelm even the tankiest of all tanks). If someone is deliberately going in first and drawing attention, they should have a higher probability of getting attacked - meaning that the tank might 'succeed' in drawing aggro from...five, maybe six enemies, under ordinary circumstances? This way the survivability of DPS builds actually matters, while tanking simultaneously still matters.

Youre on to something here.

The patch made the game worse in every single way that possibly mattered. Whoever designed this patch either needs to learn how to use a calculator, or how to game design. Maybe both. They had a GREAT game going, then some idiot decided to parrot every other MMO on the planet. Epic fail.

Proper difficulty scaling is easier to create based on certainties (like automatically gained passives) as opposed to uncertainties (like possibley finding mods).

Edited April 4, 2013 by Ronyn

[Ascension]

Just throwing a wild idea out there, I haven't thought about it much yet so don't use it to defeat my other arguments...hehehe.

What if these HP/shield mods used the Foundry system?

I mean, upgrading equipment using the fountry and some materials. The materials needed need to be very thought out so there's some progression early missions -> late missions without making it too linear.

For example, right now you have a level X warframe, supercharged or not.

With this change you would have a level X warframe, supercharged or not, with improved shielding rank Y and improved resistance (HP) rank Z.

Defeat your other arguments? Cmon dont get real on us, those aren't even worth of mention if u just look at other replys, and look at update 7.7 and the feedback by the unhappy populance, greatly thanks to selfish players like u.

Btw check this out Caligo is trying to change topic !! haha *catches him red handed*

Yeah better luck next time Caligo.( only if you aren't going around I'm Too good for this game crap anyways )

[Ascension]

Hey CaligoIllioneus, I just beat a "high-level" mission with a buffed Vay Hek. I think the new balance changes are actually fantastic now. I really, really enjoyed having to hide behind crates plinking at single Grineer.

I really really enjoyed having to pause for 20 seconds cowering like a gigantic pussy because my shields went down after two bursts of fire.

I really enjoyed having to cheese the boss by kiting him around a bunch of energy pickups while using Contagion for 2 minutes straight.

I really enjoyed dying because four Grineer spawned behind me and I had nowhere to hide.

I really, really enjoyed my melee weapons, with their fantastic animations and visceral takedowns, being utterly useless.

I really, really enjoyed being totally incapable of doing anything but playing this game like another cover shooter.

I really, really enjoyed how the difficulty stopped me from using anything but defensive powers.

I really, really enjoyed how enemies do so much damage that I just stopped having fun fighting them and speedran to the exit.

I really, really enjoyed the fact that there are people who consider this 'fun'.

Oh wait I didn't enjoy a single one of these. So you know, I'll just reiterate this again. This change is terrible. No amount of 'advice' from you will change that playing Warframe as horror game where you hide fearing single trash enemies is an awful change to a game that was fun because it let you run riot against dozens of guys, viably using melee against them despite being massively outnumbered, with ridiculously awesome powers and a great aesthetic.

MJ12, Dam i have nothing but praises for that post (I share the same feelings), u summarised what people like Caligo enjoy so well, and they are literally forcing it onto us with topics like this BS Caligo had posted here, and yeah he doesnt reply to our such replies, but continue to crap talk like always.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Ascension

[CaligoIllioneus]

Defeat your other arguments? Cmon dont get real on us, those aren't even worth of mention if u just look at other replys, and look at update 7.7 and the feedback by the unhappy populance, greatly thanks to selfish players like u.

Btw check this out Caligo is trying to change topic !! haha *catches him red handed*

Yeah better luck next time Caligo.( only if you aren't going around I'm Too good for this game crap anyways )

1) Your spelling is atrocious, which causes the post to be unsightly.

2) Your ad hominems and strawmans are pathetic.

3) Changing topic? What? Hahaha. I can't sit here and talk about how flawed your posts are all day (even if they are): Have to do something productive. Also, the topic is about passive upgrades and difficulty, so I didn't change it.

You're a low troll. I don't answer to you because you do not raise any argument. As you can tell by the rest of the thread, I answer nearly everyone else. But you're just not worth the effort, as nothing constructive can come out of such posts.

You have also been reported for deliberatedly double posting, with both posts full of personal attacks. You have done so previously, and I did nothing because I thought it was a mistake, or you were just in a bad mood, or whatever.

Edited April 4, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus

[Ascension]

1) Your spelling is atrocious, which causes the post to be unsightly.

2) Your ad hominems and strawmans are pathetic.

3) Changing topic? What? Hahaha. I can't sit here and talk about how flawed your posts are all day (even if they are): Have to do something productive. Also, the topic is about passive upgrades and difficulty, so I didn't change it.

You're a low troll. I don't answer to you because you do not raise any argument. As you can tell by the rest of the thread, I answer nearly everyone else. But you're just not worth the effort, as nothing constructive can come out of such posts.

You have also been reported for deliberatedly double posting, with both posts full of personal attacks. You have done so previously, and I did nothing because I thought it was a mistake, or you were just in a bad mood, or whatever.

I read so many other post, which u dont Reply like MJ12 previously, and i stated that ur selfish idea was gona get us all nerfed which u didnt reply too. Oh btw, so now truths are a form of personal attack to u? Ic..... so u know truth hurts.

Bad mood? not until i read ur post at least :)

Double post = 2 post with exact same things, I don't recall doing that, my first post is a my personal opinion and statments on u, and 2nd post is a quote on another person's, which seems like u clearly didn't like either 1 unfortunately. seems like there isnt many around ur topic for u to like tho.

Btw, i didn't used the word troll once in all my post except for situation like this now, and they say it takes 1 to know 1, since u started using it first. seems like u know plenty like urself :) or wait.... any1 that disagree is a troll maybe? or how u define it? not too sure myself :(

And I play so much more to be able to really give constructive comments, than you who just played for awhile and started "this game is too easy topic" which could cause undesirable consequences to many other players other than myself which is why i HAVE to come and state my opinion. And for a person and play so little, u sure post a whole lot.

When i was around your rank i had like 0 or 1 post count. "Too busy playing the game and understanding it better before coming to the forums"

To Reply to

1) ahh just an insult next point

2) another insult? my god wasting my time

3) lol again another insult. dam my precious time....

PS : Sorry if my post seems long and squeezy, had to do this to prevent some people calling me a double poster ~

Edited April 4, 2013 by DERebecca
Removed some insults

[Hippaforalkus]

Vertical progression, as you describe it, is actually one of the grand pitfalls of MMO's. There is a phenomenon known as power creep in most MMO's and level-centric games, where the numbers (HP, DPS, etc) simply grow larger and larger as the game progresses. This is usually an artificial gating mechanic, to keep players from participating in content that is many, many levels above them. It's basically a sign that reads "You must grind X amount to be competent here".

Vast vertical progression is fundamentally awful game design, because it makes player skill matter less and less, and makes the amount of grinding matter more and more. Think about it, if the damage that enemies do goes up by so little, from start to endgame, then this means that low-level players can still participate in endgame content. Wouldn't it be spectacularly awesome if that annoying "You must grind X amount to enter" sign just didn't exist? With a shooter, and with headshots, there are TWO ways to increase your DPS - you can either grind your way to competency, or you can get better at aiming, and land more headshots.

Suppose we actually did make it so that 100 shields and 100 health at max level was a completely competent endgame build. BAM! Endgame content is now available to everybody, because they will not get gutted if they try it. A low-level headshot master can easily hang around with the endgame players, and match (or beat) their damage.

Case and point: At level 1, I was soloing level 10+ missions a few days ago, at 100 shields and 100 health - because I shoot for the head and use powers wisely. During online matches, I regularly score 45-50% of the damage in a 4-man group, using a Viper pistol in place of an assault rifle. I can usually kill three enemies in rapid succession before the clip runs dry, because I aim for the head.

The idea of extra HP and shields requiring slots is parallel to this: A player should ALWAYS give up something (in this case, upgrade slots) if they want extra damage, or extra survivability. This prevents the game from developing cookie-cutter builds, and encourages mix & match configuration and gameplay. It requires the option of extra survivability to be balanced alongside other important things, instead of merely being handed over on a silver platter because the player can figure out how to move a mouse and mash buttons.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Hippaforalkus

[CaligoIllioneus]

Oh nooo here comes theee insults and dictionary arguments runnnnn, to the Library.

We are on the Internet, not english class, why would i care so much 4 spelling, U seem to be able to read it fine, unless u are replying to something u didn't or can't even read ? is that what u are saying?

Or what u are saying is people who cant spell properly GET OFF the internet and MY post? haha

I read so many other post, which u dont Reply like MJ12 previously, and i stated that ur selfish idea was gona get us all nerfed which u didnt reply too. Oh btw, so now truths are a form of personal attack to u? Ic..... so u know truth hurts.

Bad mood? not until i read ur post at least :)

Double post = 2 post with exact same things, I don't recall doing that, my first post is a my personal opinion and statments on u, and 2nd post is a quote on another person's, which seems like u clearly didn't like either 1 unfortunately. seems like there isnt many around ur topic for u to like tho.

Btw, i didn't used the word troll once in all my post except for situation like this now, and they say it takes 1 to know 1, since u started using it first. seems like u know plenty like urself :) or wait.... any1 that disagree is a troll maybe? or how u define it? not too sure myself :(

I will just say two things:

1) Not everyone that disagrees is a troll, as evidenced by the other nice discussions that happened in this topic. I don't count the discussions with MJ12 there because I don't think he actually discusses...he preaches, about Good vs Evil, Pros vs The People. He also doesn't really raise many arguments and all his posts tend to be full of exaggerated information like "the game is broken and unplayable" and "the game is going to die" doomsaying. The rest of the people who disagreed, not counting you, were much more civil, and their arguments tended to make sense, even if I didn't agree with them. Thus I answered them each time.

2) You made two consecutive posts where they should have been one. You also did not do this to split the post so it wasn't a gigantic mess, as you didn't really write much. I don't know why you did it but it is wrong.

I won't answer any other things because they're really not worth the time. If you actually want discussion take some time to think things through and generate an argument, then come again. I will answer then. Or you can stay here and preach to the choir, I won't (and can't) stop you. Maybe someone is willing to wade through your posts? Perhaps. But troll and I will report you.

Vertical progression, as you describe it, is actually one of the grand pitfalls of MMO's. There is a phenomenon known as power creep in most MMO's and level-centric games, where the numbers (HP, DPS, etc) simply grow larger and larger as the game progresses. This is usually an artificial gating mechanic, to keep players from participating in content that is many, many levels above them. It's basically a sign that reads "You must grind X amount to be competent here".

Vast vertical progression is fundamentally awful game design, because it makes player skill matter less and less, and makes the amount of grinding matter more and more. Think about it, if the damage that enemies do goes up by so little, from start to endgame, then this means that low-level players can still participate in endgame content. Wouldn't it be spectacularly awesome if that annoying "You must grind X amount to enter" sign just didn't exist? With a shooter, and with headshots, there are TWO ways to increase your DPS - you can either grind your way to competency, or you can get better at aiming, and land more headshots.

Suppose we actually did make it so that 100 shields and 100 health at max level was a completely competent endgame build. BAM! Endgame content is now available to everybody, because they will not get gutted if they try it. A low-level headshot master can easily hang around with the endgame players, and match (or beat) their damage.

Case and point: At level 1, I was soloing level 10+ missions a few days ago, at 100 shields and 100 health - because I shoot for the head and use powers wisely. During online matches, I regularly score 45-50% of the damage in a 4-man group, using a Viper pistol in place of an assault rifle. I can usually kill three enemies in rapid succession before the clip runs dry, because I aim for the head.

The idea of extra HP and shields requiring slots is parallel to this: A player should ALWAYS give up something (in this case, upgrade slots) if they want extra damage, or extra survivability. This prevents the game from developing cookie-cutter builds, and encourages mix & match configuration and gameplay. It requires the option of extra survivability to be balanced alongside other important things, instead of merely being handed over on a silver platter because the player can figure out how to move a mouse and mash buttons.

I kind of agree...I wouldn't like grind to be eliminated completely and have beginners able to go to the hardest level places instantly, though (that would be too drastic in my opinion)...but I would definitely like more freedom than there is in a game with typical vertical progression.

Your idea, however, is based around effort and skill: The way for the low level players to be able to complete higher level stuff is through effort, and I don't think there was any effort present in the (short) status quo of update 7.6

The game was just plain easy, and this extreme, with everyone being able to do everything, returns us to the same issue: grind. When there's no other gratification due to no other obstacles to overcome, the only obstacle (and thus gratification) that remains are the whims of the RNG, that is, the grind.

Edited April 4, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus

[Ascension]

I will just say two things:

1) Not everyone that disagrees is a troll, as evidenced by the other nice discussions that happened in this topic. I don't count the discussions with MJ12 there because I don't think he actually discusses...he preaches, about Good vs Evil, Pros vs The People. He also doesn't really raise many arguments and all his posts tend to be full of exaggerated information and "the game is going to die" doomsaying. The rest of the people who disagreed, not counting you, were much more civil, and their arguments tended to make sense, even if I didn't agree with them. Thus I answered them each time.

2) You made two consecutive posts where they should have been one. You also did not do this to split the most so it wasn't a gigantic mess, as you didn't really write much. I don't know why you did it but it is wrong.

I won't answer any other things because they're really not worth the time. If you actually want discussion take some time to think things through and generate an argument, then come again. I will answer then. Or you can stay here and preach to the choir, I won't (and can't) stop you. Maybe someone is willing to wade through your posts? Perhaps. But troll and I will report you.

Ending the post with a threat. Way to go. Btw look at my edit-ed post, (DIDN'T Mention here just incase it might be a "double post")

Rofl hey good idea going on there, post that u don't like are actually not discussion but exaggerated doomsday post.

Btw why should they have been 1? it's my post but seems like u understand the composer more than i understand myself? lol

Gigantic mess? depends on what u call it, maybe the 1 up there is 1, who knows what ur standards are.

Oh btw a troll is someone that doesnt care about anything on go on and disagree about crazy stuff is what i would think... doesnt seem right, cuz i find myself agree-ing to many other OP and post including MJ12 and many others out there. Only urs I disagree, so how did i, according to u become a troll for disagree-ing to ur OP.

Btw, ur forum rank dont match ur in-game rank, maybe u spending too much time "grinding/training" in the forums? haha

Edited April 4, 2013 by Ascension

[MJ12]

1) Not everyone that disagrees is a troll, as evidenced by the other nice discussions that happened in this topic. I don't count the discussions with MJ12 there because I don't think he actually discusses...he preaches, about Good vs Evil, Pros vs The People. He also doesn't really raise many arguments and all his posts tend to be full of exaggerated information like "the game is broken and unplayable" and "the game is going to die" doomsaying. The rest of the people who disagreed, not counting you, were much more civil, and their arguments tended to make sense, even if I didn't agree with them. Thus I answered them each time.

I didn't make any 'the game is going to die' doomsaying. I said it was a possibility because, shockingly, not everyone enjoys hard games, and people hate difficulty locks. There's a reason the 'play on easy and get mocked and don't ever get to see an ending' system that was so popular in the 1990s died. Because difficulty locks on content are unfun as hell. Hell, Mass Effect 3 added a 'Super Easy' mode (Narrative) to appeal to players who liked stories but weren't very good at third person shooters. You can see all of ME3's content despite being incredibly awful at shooters. This is a feature, not a bug, and a good thing. It means people get to play at a skill level they feel comfortable with.

I have plenty of hours in ME3 multiplayer, and let me tell you something. Every time there's a challenge that requires a certain difficulty? That difficulty suddenly becomes a lot harder. Why? Because people feel forced to do something they find unfun to get rewards. Not only does this change ruin the game for "The People", it ruins the game for elitists like you, because you get partnered with awful pubbies who need to be carried.

Because they feel forced to play at your difficulty level and they not only won't get any better (you don't get better from being instantly facestomped, there's a reason military training isn't "throw you into a war and see what happens") but they frustrate you. Your hilarious, constant failure to understand that this change is literally good for nobody except elitists who don't want a 'challenge' as much as they want 'to laugh at peons' is depressing. Maybe if you understood that you'd actually understand why I'm calling you an elitist. You're defending a system that isn't good for players who want challenge, that isn't good for players who find it too hard, that isn't good for players that want to casually faceroll things, and that isn't good for the game.

The only reason you'd be defending it is if you were an elitist... or if you were a useful idiot who's deluded himself into supporting something that is actively detrimental to his own game enjoyment. Which is it?

And yes, I consider the game broken and unplayable. That's not an exaggeration. If I have to play a game without a cover system (intentionally without a cover system because that slows down the pace of the game) as a cover shooter, the game is broken. But hey, if you can't counter any argument, you just claim it's "preaching". Because you don't have anything. You just have your delusion that you are the sole person who is playing and the sole person who deserves anything resembling fun.

If I can instantly die from opening a door, I'm either playing nethack... or the game is broken and unplayable. If I can't use the shiny new Sentinel feature because the Sentinel instantly explodes if it gets aggroed for even a fraction of a second... the feature is broken. I'm sorry that you don't like it, but it's true. The game, right now, is broken. Because the devs listened to toxic customers like you.

[Mithie]

I didn't make any 'the game is going to die' doomsaying. I said it was a possibility because, shockingly, not everyone enjoys hard games, and people hate difficulty locks. There's a reason the 'play on easy and get mocked and don't ever get to see an ending' system that was so popular in the 1990s died. Because difficulty locks on content are unfun as hell.

Yeah. You shouldn't have unreasonable difficulty spikes which lock players out from content. This is true.

Hell, Mass Effect 3 added a 'Super Easy' mode (Narrative) to appeal to players who liked stories but weren't very good at third person shooters. You can see all of ME3's content despite being incredibly awful at shooters. This is a feature, not a bug, and a good thing. It means people get to play at a skill level they feel comfortable with.

... No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. The way to make gameplay less difficulty gated is NOT to remove gameplay altogether. Mass Effect 3's analogy doesn't work here because Mass Effect 3 had S#&$ gameplay. Warframe has GREAT gameplay.

I have plenty of hours in ME3 multiplayer, and let me tell you something. Every time there's a challenge that requires a certain difficulty? That difficulty suddenly becomes a lot harder. Why? Because people feel forced to do something they find unfun to get rewards. Not only does this change ruin the game for "The People", it ruins the game for elitists like you, because you get partnered with awful pubbies who need to be carried.

Mass Effect 3's multiplayer was bad because the core gameplay was bad. It has nothing to do with difficulty gating, The gameplay was so shallow that the only way to demonstrate player progression was by stacking numbers (something which Warframe is also guilty of, but at least the base gameplay in Warframe is far more complex and mature).

And yes, I consider the game broken and unplayable. That's not an exaggeration. If I have to play a game without a cover system (intentionally without a cover system because that slows down the pace of the game) as a cover shooter, the game is broken.

Yes, this is correct, again. The game mechanics are fine, You can see how fine these mechanics are by running the mercury, venus, and mars levels. But the level and enemy design do not scale well with the mechanics so the only way to progress on them is to stack numbers, which, as you pointed out, breaks the gameplay.

If I can instantly die from opening a door, I'm either playing nethack... or the game is broken and unplayable. If I can't use the shiny new Sentinel feature because the Sentinel instantly explodes if it gets aggroed for even a fraction of a second... the feature is broken. I'm sorry that you don't like it, but it's true. The game, right now, is broken. Because the devs listened to toxic customers like you.

...but these are bad examples. The laser doors are fine, if they could be made less glitchy. The sentinels would be okay, if they were properly balanced. They're small problems, but they are not what's breaking the game. What's breaking the game, currently, is the fact that enemy difficulty doesn't rise based on tactics, AI, or speed, but how big their HP pool can grow, and completely breaking gameplay for any level past Saturn.

[Cakes]

If I can instantly die from opening a door, I'm either playing nethack... or the game is broken and unplayable. If I can't use the shiny new Sentinel feature because the Sentinel instantly explodes if it gets aggroed for even a fraction of a second... the feature is broken. I'm sorry that you don't like it, but it's true. The game, right now, is broken. Because the devs listened to toxic customers like you.

You died from rushing through doors and eventually getting a surprise to the face, not from opening it. I've yet to die from running into the side of a door to trigger the opening mechanism due to my proximity without actually going through the door. Yeah, not everyone you see running into the side of the door on a Corpus mission is doing so because they're not paying attention or really bad at running.

My Sentinel is tougher than me by quite a bit with Rank 4 Redirection and Vitality sentinel mods equipped. It's Shade, and generally things like shooting at it while I've been cloaked. Every time it died I was either downed by the same explosion or already long gone and it was still fighting the good fight. I'm not sure why your sentinel is made of tissue paper.

[calgon]

I love how people with shotys saying how easy it is. Nerf them shoty mods and they start complain too.

So much this. Can't wait for the rebalancing, either shotguns get a nerf, or rifles and other stuff will get a buff. But well, maybe that's not the way with which the problem needs to be addressed.

[MJ12]

... No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. The way to make gameplay less difficulty gated is NOT to remove gameplay altogether. Mass Effect 3's analogy doesn't work here because Mass Effect 3 had S#&$ gameplay. Warframe has GREAT gameplay.

Mass Effect 3's multiplayer was bad because the core gameplay was bad. It has nothing to do with difficulty gating, The gameplay was so shallow that the only way to demonstrate player progression was by stacking numbers (something which Warframe is also guilty of, but at least the base gameplay in Warframe is far more complex and mature).

Actually after playing 50ish hours of ME3MP I actually noticed a significant skill increase due to, well, player progression. Anyways, ME3's gameplay is actually really well done for a Gears of War-type 3rd person cover shooter. Which is the really funny/annoying part about all of this. The current changes make the game's gameplay far more like ME3... except inferior, because there is no cover system and easy pop-out-of-cover-and-shoot button, powers run on randomly regenerated energy instead of cooldowns, and there are no real power combos or team synergies.

So you know, the current changes are "let's make Warframe into ME3 but s**t." And like ME3 gameplay or not, that's awful.

Anyways, that's tangential to the actual point, which was "good games don't gate you from content via difficulty and let you experience themselves more or less in full and have fun no matter what your skill level is." Narrative difficulty was useful because some people who played ME3 were just there for the plot and didn't care about the shooting. Obviously Warframe isn't a plot-based epic ending of a trilogy so it doesn't and shouldn't have Narrative difficulty (except to punish guys who insist that repeated $&*^-punchings are the best fun by sticking them in the Narrative Zone where bosses die in one hit and a thousand Hyenas firing their missiles at you take away 10% of your shields). But the point stands.

The other point stands as well, which is "if you difficulty gate content it will ruin the experience of every gamer affected. The guys who are capable of dealing with the content end up forced to carry others who run it (because they can't get what they want at their ideal difficulty) while the guys who aren't end up getting frustrated and annoyed." It's a lose-lose situation.

Yes, this is correct, again. The game mechanics are fine, You can see how fine these mechanics are by running the mercury, venus, and mars levels. But the level and enemy design do not scale well with the mechanics so the only way to progress on them is to stack numbers, which, as you pointed out, breaks the gameplay.

Stacking numbers is actually useful because it gives you an instant, obvious sense of progression. Everyone who plays pen and paper RPGs has discovered the joy of minmaxing a character to have huge numbers on their sheet at least once. The problem is when the game is not balanced on those bigger numbers.

...but these are bad examples. The laser doors are fine, if they could be made less glitchy. The sentinels would be okay, if they were properly balanced. They're small problems, but they are not what's breaking the game. What's breaking the game, currently, is the fact that enemy difficulty doesn't rise based on tactics, AI, or speed, but how big their HP pool can grow, and completely breaking gameplay for any level past Saturn.

Actually I wasn't talking about laser doors. See below.

You died from rushing through doors and eventually getting a surprise to the face, not from opening it. I've yet to die from running into the side of a door to trigger the opening mechanism due to my proximity without actually going through the door. Yeah, not everyone you see running into the side of the door on a Corpus mission is doing so because they're not paying attention or really bad at running.

My Sentinel is tougher than me by quite a bit with Rank 4 Redirection and Vitality sentinel mods equipped. It's Shade, and generally things like shooting at it while I've been cloaked. Every time it died I was either downed by the same explosion or already long gone and it was still fighting the good fight. I'm not sure why your sentinel is made of tissue paper.

I wasn't talking about laser doors. I was talking about Open Door -> Grineer Firing Squad -> Death. Or worse yet, "Peek out pipe entrance, see Grineer firing squad, die." I can deal with laser doors.

[Kato-san]

Only thing that needs to change is Vitality / Redirection need to be lowered, Vit needs to be set down to 25% per lvl and Redirection needs to be set to 25% per lvl.

[Tsukinoki]

Only thing that needs to change is Vitality / Redirection need to be lowered, Vit needs to be set down to 25% per lvl and Redirection needs to be set to 25% per lvl.

With how massively they buffed enemy damage recently?