Health And Hp Needs Balancing After The Last Hotfix

[f3llyn]

Devolving the roles into tank/dps/support is a dangerous road and a very bad thing for the game.

Especially considering there isn't a real "tank" warframe. Rhino has a really nice defensive skill but that by no means makes him a tank. If anything he's a support with all the cc he has since 3 of his skills offer some form of that.

[KurokoOkami]

Ahh I see where this is going. Once again, under the banner we all Tenno's must live under for the moment (please excuse me for sounding like a broken record):

We are in B-E-T-A

But obvious things aside (or at least should be obvious). Please allow me to attempt to quell all sides, be they resonable or not, of our arguement.

1. Its fair to say that 80%, give or take, of the community feels that the HP/Shield buff was nice but a little too much.

2. We have a number of players arguing their methodology of approaching the game which, by all fairness, is their right to do so as with any human opinion. BUT here is where we digress into arguing and forgetting key points

2a. Some of us favour stealth. Nothing wrong with that. I feel that most players walk into this game thinking "I'm gonna be a slick space ninja." While this a noble pursuit it is a rather difficult one seeing as the "alert system" in which enemies sound the alarm is too fast for even the best of us.

2b. Some of us favour a tank (like me) which is a personality in itself. We are straightforward types, no shadows, no games, thus we NEED heavy armour, hp and shields. Not too "ninja like" but in a team, there always has to be the tough nut to take flak for the "killers" to make a clean kill.

2c. In no way am i devolving warframes to be a "certain class". Warframes, the suits I mean, are tools of war. They are designed to fill a role on the battlefield. This by no means that there is a "tank/dps/healer." There is simply you the tenno and your suit, and the abilities accompanied with the suit.

3. With these detailed points our various arguments boil down to 2 things:

"Godmode" should be achieved via player skill. Bringing a knife to a shootout is a bad idea but that doesnt mean you cannot turn the situation to favour your TOOLS. Guns have ammo, knives dont. In martial arts, a block is a block due the way it is taught to you. You are never told "do not use this block to smack an opponent in the head" are you? It is a tool, like a warframe, nothing more nothing less. An average user will use their warframe in the most convienent manner. A GREAT warframe user knows how to apply their skills and the tools of the warframe to change their environment to their advantage.

(I hate to do this...again...for the 3rd time) We are in beta. There are still many things we need to test and iron out. Please do your part and help dev's identify problems....like say...oh, i dont know. Make a larger timer on enemies razing the alarm so the stealthy characters have a reasonable chance to stay under the radar?

Ok, everyone huddle, fist bump, good talking with you. And yes, feel free to private message me. I may be a "rhino" but also enjoy tossing ideas back and forth

Edited April 2, 2013 by KurokoOkami

[CaligoIllioneus]

Devolving the roles into tank/dps/support is a dangerous road and a very bad thing for the game.

For example right now Nyx is awesome for defense missions for example, making her desirable by defense groups. Trinity is great for doing bosses, etc. I believe these things should be increased and all warframes should find their niches. I don't like the tank/dps/healer setup too much, or rather, I like it for games of a different genre.

Edited April 2, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus

[GrayFox]

Ahh I see where this is going. Once again, under the banner we all Tenno's must live under for the moment (please excuse me for sounding like a broken record):

We are in B-E-T-A

But obvious things aside (or at least should be obvious). Please allow me to attempt to quell all sides, be they resonable or not, of our arguement.

1. Its fair to say that 80%, give or take, of the community feels that the HP/Shield buff was nice but a little too much.

2. We have a number of players arguing their methodology of approaching the game which, by all fairness, is their right to do so as with any human opinion. BUT here is where we digress into arguing and forgetting key points

2a. Some of us favour stealth. Nothing wrong with that. I feel that most players walk into this game thinking "I'm gonna be a slick space ninja." While this a noble pursuit it is a rather difficult one seeing as the "alert system" in which enemies sound the alarm is too fast for even the best of us.

2b. Some of us favour a tank (like me) which is a personality in itself. We are straightforward types, no shadows, no games, thus we NEED heavy armour, hp and shields. Not too "ninja like" but in a team, there always has to be the tough nut to take flak for the "killers" to make a clean kill.

2c. In no way am i devolving warframes to be a "certain class". Warframes, the suits I mean, are tools of war. They are designed to fill a role on the battlefield. This by no means that there is a "tank/dps/healer." There is simply you the tenno and your suit, and the abilities accompanied with the suit.

3. With these detailed points our various arguments boil down to 2 things:

"Godmode" should be achieved via player skill. Bringing a knife to a shootout is a bad idea but that doesnt mean you cannot turn the situation to favour your TOOLS. Guns have ammo, knives dont. In martial arts, a block is a block due the way it is taught to you. You are never told "do not use this block to smack an opponent in the head" are you? It is a tool, like a warframe, nothing more nothing less. An average user will use their warframe in the most convienent manner. A GREAT warframe user knows how to apply their skills and the tools of the warframe to change their environment to their advantage.

(I hate to do this...again...for the 3rd time) We are in beta. There are still many things we need to test and iron out. Please do your part and help dev's identify problems....like say...oh, i dont know. Make a larger timer on enemies razing the alarm so the stealthy characters have a reasonable chance to stay under the radar?

Ok, everyone huddle, fist bump, good talking with you. And yes, feel free to private message me. I may be a "rhino" but also enjoy tossing ideas back and forth

I agree. For the gist of it, Warframes really are tools for players to use. A warframe maybe designed as such (tank-like, supportive etc etc) but it all goes down to who's playing behind the warframe. A player may use rhino and move like most of the more agile warframes there are available and vice-versa. Preferences aside, even if the nerfs, buffs, balances get applied (when that time where warframe achieves "ultimate" status... which is unlikely to happen as it is subjected to as mentioned from one of the posts.. toxic customers) if a player plays bad.. the warframe and weapons turn out bad.. hence asking for a "balance" of sorts just to suit their needs. If a player plays good and enjoys with it.. he/she just continues to enjoy. If a player plays all too well and finds it boring, he/she asks for nerfs again, for the most part, to suit his/her needs.

[Corvalia]

why make it optional? its like a legit god mode i would say, there is no challenge in this game anymore for my view, all you do is charge towards enemies without sweating, players now don't use advantage of the places to kill they all just depends on shield to tank all the way through its not a ninja anymore if you are just like a war machine. stealth does't fit into war machine capabilities

You go ahead and stand in front of 1 or 2 heavy grineer machine gunners and pretend you can tank it easily. Also, quit playing levels that are way lower level than you, you'll find it's not so easy to just 1 shot everything you see. Outer Terminus? Endless Defense past wave 20? Definitely a cake-walk.

[chuuburg]

The goal of the passive upgrades is to make Vitality and Redirection optional. I understand your concern but in a system with 10 slots, if 2 of those are consumed by "you'd be insane not to use these" then its really just an 8 slot system with some hidden assumptions.

Hang in there and see how it pans out.

And yes, it paves the way to tougher enemies without crushing squishing new players who haven't been lucky enough to get a Vitality drop.

Its a good move but some tweaks need to be made.

Reduction of passive boost by about 5-10% of the might be suitable.

And/Or

Reduction of shield and vit mods by maybe 10-20% per level.

Right now my nyx is 300hp 300 shields naked, as it was 100 100 pre-patch.

300 may be a tad bit too much, I think perhaps 250-275 seems like a better range

[MJ12]

I don't think the game should be balanced around soloing in any way. I think the core of the game is coop play, and doing missions "of your level" should be balanced towards them being done by a group of at least 3 people. Soloing should be reserved for doing easier content/farming, while soloing current missions or higher level content should take serious skill.

Why exactly? Why should people with shaky internet connections be punished?

Why would DE not want money from people with shaky internet connections? Because I plonked down my $50 for a Hunter pack specifically because it was possible to solo any level without excessive grinding after I got past the difficulty hump.

If the game is balanced so it's as easy as it is now to solo (not very but it's still possible for someone who isn't "seriously skilled") and you get a balanced 4p co-op scaling do you lose anything? When there's a problem that exists but there's a fix that doesn't screw other people, which is about as hard as the fix that does screw other people, why do you choose the fix with problems? Why screw other people when you don't have to?

[Mithie]

If the game is balanced so it's as easy as it is now to solo (not very but it's still possible for someone who isn't "seriously skilled") and you get a balanced 4p co-op scaling do you lose anything? When there's a problem that exists but there's a fix that doesn't screw other people, which is about as hard as the fix that does screw other people, why do you choose the fix with problems? Why screw other people when you don't have to?

Yes, I think the game absolutely does need to scale to the number of players. But how? Do we add numbers? Scale up their damage? Up the enemy hp?

[Grand-Dozer]

I think the Percentage values need to be altered. Just change them based on the Warframe type, Rhino and Frost are tank type warframes so they should be sturdy, while getting less of a power max bonus.

Loki and similar light-stealth types should get far less gains on health/shields, but retain a reasonable power max bonus.

Support/Damage types should have a balance of health/shields, but slightly more focus on their power max bonus.

I think changes like these would retain the differences between the frames and their "Roles" while allowing flexibility between types. Right now it seems as if everyone has a roughly similar bonus to all their stats, so everyone has really high shields, health, and power max being compounded with mods.

EDIT: I'm sure they're already working along these lines, I just think the passives should be a little less potent.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Grand-Dozer

[f3llyn]

That's how I had envisioned they'd do passives.

[Spinner187]

This new hotfix does help out newbie players and solo artist.

But for us veteran players, its cake walk.

For someone who never receive a redirection or viltality drop, it was hard as first to adjustt U7, But I use evey tool at my disposible to survive. I had to learn to run, dodge, and use abilities more so before U7 and I was able to make it. Hell I built a mag frame and leveled it to 30 without dieing once! It was a hell of a challenge, but fun as hell!

Now I can I can watch TV not worry about dieing with the amount of shield and health I got.

I know it hard to balance out solo and co-op, but something need to be done. Way too easy.

[GrayFox]

This new hotfix does help out newbie players and solo artist.

But for us veteran players, its cake walk.

For someone who never receive a redirection or viltality drop, it was hard as first to adjustt U7, But I use evey tool at my disposible to survive. I had to learn to run, dodge, and use abilities more so before U7 and I was able to make it. Hell I built a mag frame and leveled it to 30 without dieing once! It was a hell of a challenge, but fun as hell!

Now I can I can watch TV not worry about dieing with the amount of shield and health I got.

I know it hard to balance out solo and co-op, but something need to be done. Way too easy.

This is subjective don't you think? I give you a bro-five for the leveling experience as unlike others who cried, you thought of a work-around, instead of *@##$ing out, you ditched your nukes out and that's the manly way of playing a game. But for the "way too easy" part, that's where I see the subjective part. It may be too easy for you, based on how I percieve you as a player (knows how to play well, if not "pro" if there is such a caliber here) as I've mentioned in other posts, we're in a cap here, it may seem to be very easy at the moment and with the current bonuses for hp, shield and energy, the missions or the mission progress for new players and the ones that didn't have hp/shield mods will get it to progress the maps easier compared to the many who ditched it out, thought of ways to play and still enjoy the game in the absence of such mods. I'm personalyl with you on the thought that yes, it made warframe more challenging and hell of a lot more fun with the sense of danger because of the loss of those mods, but this hotfix was meant for those who can't progress as well. I'm 70% sure that future galaxy maps (as described by the dev's) will surely come and I'm expecting maps and different mod configurations (as of now, players who have decent to maxed out mods can ditch the shield and hp mod entirely) to require to have the high hp/shields we're experiencing today.

It's too soon to say that this current fix is "god-like", it is at the current stage for those who're reaching optimal load outs, but it's a great help for those who're just trying and in the path of doing so.

Pre update 7, clamors for "reaching ownage level mods are way too easy!" "this game is way too easy!" "change the mods etc etc!"... update 7 comes "wtf happend to my mods!?" "shield and hp mods are hard to get wtf!?" "hp and shield should be passive!" .. now people get what they want "THIS IS UNFAIR! it's so XXX LAKSDAHKLDHAKLHL!!#!$!!"... *new higher level content arrives* *le passive shield and hp gets nerfed" "FCK! are shields and hp's are so low!" "mobs are op!" "my weapons are S#&$ in those maps!" "increase squad to 8!" you do get what i mean right?

[Dr_Wubby]

we are much too tanky now.

[Ced23Ric]

You guys weren't even around when Tenno had 6000 to 27000 shields. And when that was dropped to a peak of ~1200, people cried how the game was way too hard. Then, we ran around with insane amounts of armour, taking 1 to 3 damage per hit on our ~400 health. People complained how hard the game was, when that changed, too.

Now you are complaining that it is too easy. Believe me, such balancing is tough cookies. The current additions make frames less dependant on RNG luck with finding Vit/Red mods, which is a good thing. Breathe in and out. It'll be sorted. :)

[f3llyn]

we are much too tanky now.

So don't use a hp/shield mod then?

[Strac_CRO]

Vitality/Redirection mods need a serious nerf (maybe slight nerf to "passive increase" too)

Edited April 2, 2013 by Strac_CRO

[V0LK]

Stop it! Warframe is taking steps to be fun again, not another tactical sim. If some selfish players feel too easy they can unequip shield/health cards now.

First we could have deeper, more tactical gameplay: lethal headshots, bonus damage when flanking, more rewarding teamplay, then DE could ramp up the difficulty.

[tcww]

I don't think health and shield mods need a nerf because one major benefit of these buffs is the freeing up of 2 crucial mod slots. I think that opens up the game and gives players more flexibility in choosing how they want to play the game. You can swap out the defensive mods for more offensive power or speed if you feel its "too easy". And no, 800 shields and health wasnt enough for me to solo Outer Terminus...

[Vanguard4]

warframe is too easy to be a ninja tactical game, what we see now is a warmachine charging towards enemies without fear of dying,

I come over from Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer where damage output of enemies is MUCH higher. It essentially renders all melee builds useless, so for once, I am quite glad warframes are overall a bit tanky. Even my excalibur warframe is only level 22 or something - prepatch with a 200% redirection mod he was quite able to charge a few gun wielding grineers. I agree though that with about 460 Shields postpatch it becomes a bit too easy. To strike a balance here is quite difficult.

What I am trying to say is: Buffing enemies damage/decreasing the amount of shields/health of Warframes is all nice and dandy, just don´t forget to compensate melee builds for it. Maybe introduce a mod that increases health/shields at the expense of ranged damage?

[Jokyma]

You go ahead and stand in front of 1 or 2 heavy grineer machine gunners and pretend you can tank it easily. Also, quit playing levels that are way lower level than you, you'll find it's not so easy to just 1 shot everything you see. Outer Terminus? Endless Defense past wave 20? Definitely a cake-walk.

nobody asked you to stand infront of 2 heavy and tank, thats how you play, i played every single map and i cleared everyone of them, my strongest weapon is hek and i maxed the damage out already, if you love tanking go ahead nobody is stopping you. I already said so many time using adavantages of the enviroment to help you, thats technic and skill. i don't enjoy tanking its too easy for me

[Jokyma]

I come over from Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer where damage output of enemies is MUCH higher. It essentially renders all melee builds useless, so for once, I am quite glad warframes are overall a bit tanky. Even my excalibur warframe is only level 22 or something - prepatch with a 200% redirection mod he was quite able to charge a few gun wielding grineers. I agree though that with about 460 Shields postpatch it becomes a bit too easy. To strike a balance here is quite difficult.

What I am trying to say is: Buffing enemies damage/decreasing the amount of shields/health of Warframes is all nice and dandy, just don´t forget to compensate melee builds for it. Maybe introduce a mod that increases health/shields at the expense of ranged damage?

what i find is that, the current warframe shields and health adds to much and needs to be retweaked or increasing the damage of the mobs. all i want is a balanced gameplay, i understand how easy you die in the "paid" mp games because those require skills and tactic, we are now way above the mobs damage limit so i think that need a change.

and for those saying the warframe should be "tankish" i would disagree. every single warframe has it pros and cons and the devs already said they want a co op game. playing solo is alright but tanking just doe'snt really suit it for me because you have a role to play, trinity is the support health thats her role, rhino is just to tank the enemy and crowd control, you see they all have thier role to play its just that i find the redirection and vitality is way up too high for all of them to even play their role anymore

[StarKnight]

Give you sour, you say not sweet... Give you sweet you say too sweet. What the hell you want.

Noobs player like me can't complete a Mercury, Caloris Mission even I equiped with level 10 Vitality and Redirection Mods.

Die 40 times also cannot complete this very hard mission so please give me a chance to complete this mission.

If not I can't play with anyone.

Now with the new passive Vitality and Redirection Mods, I start to see a light shinning upon me, I finally get to leave Mercury, Caloris Mission.

Thank to the game developer for helping me little noob.

By the way,

If you think everyone is as pro as you, than don't equip those Vitality or Redirection Mods.

If you still think the game is still easy if you did not equip those Vitality or Redirection Mods, than play with no Mods.

If you still think playing with no Mods is still easy, go Play Eris or Pluto Planet.

If you still think playing with no Mods in Eris & Pluto and you still did not die, And still find it Easy, please wait for level 50 map.

[Jokyma]

Give you sour, you say not sweet... Give you sweet you say too sweet. What the hell you want.

Noobs player like me can't complete a Mercury, Caloris Mission even I equiped with level 10 Vitality and Redirection Mods.

Die 40 times also cannot complete this very hard mission so please give me a chance to complete this mission.

If not I can't play with anyone.

Now with the new passive Vitality and Redirection Mods, I start to see a light shinning upon me, I finally get to leave Mercury, Caloris Mission.

Thank to the game developer for helping me little noob.

By the way,

If you think everyone is as pro as you, than don't equip those Vitality or Redirection Mods.

If you still think the game is still easy if you did not equip those Vitality or Redirection Mods, than play with no Mods.

If you still think playing with no Mods is still easy, go Play Eris or Pluto Planet.

If you still think playing with no Mods in Eris & Pluto and you still did not die, And still find it Easy, please wait for level 50 map.

are you playing on solo that why you died so many time? you know its a co op game right?

[Oktalz]

mj12 you see the whole picture? tanking isn't the role of tennos you have to make use of the enviroment to overcome every obstacle you might find in the future, try playing stealth with a bow with a friend and talking on the phone you will know how exicting it feel to play stealth with a friend over the phone to have to urge not being spotted, thats the role tennos are suitable for, "using advantages of enviroment"

Dont force your idea of a game on others. This hame is not Thief. If you want to play like that then go private with friends or solo. Remove mods and there you go. WF is not a bloody ninja simulator, its a game with a race of ninja like humanoids. End of story

[Gashin]

I think passive upgrade need nerf a little. right now, Health and Shield mod became just no needed thing not one of options.

We have both power and enough defense by taking other mod instead of health or shield mod.

If it's nerfed, we'll think which we should take health / shield mods for more defense or other mods for other purposes.