Dual Ichors Blows All Other Melee Weapons Away

[TheJiggliestPoo]

This is not a nerf Dual Ichors thread, but a buff other melee weapons for high lvl enemies thread (This thread does not account for stealth multipliers and other damage buffing abilities as not every frame has it and we want melee to be good on every frame) . The damage output of other weapons don't come anywhere close to dual ichors and many don't even have the mobility and versatility that comes from dual ichors. Right now Dual Ichors is the only melee weapon that is close enough to compete with ranged weaponry. No other melee weapons come close.

 

All other melee weapons are ok at fighting mobs 30+ but you will notice a significant difference when fighting lvl 30+ heavy gunners in the void along with other armored enemies when using anything other than dual ichors. One of the few other weapons that is able to be barely viable vs heavily armored enemies is the dragon nikana and even then, Dual Ichors, and by extension ranged weaponry, blows it out of the water in ease of killing.

 

TL;DR: Give innate armor ignore or increase status/crit chance on melee weapons. High lvl armored enemies makes your non-crit melee weapons worthless vs other weapons.

 

*Edit*

 

While we're at it, buff crit mods for melee. 60% crit chance increase is pathetic 

 

*Edit 2*

I made some videos. It's obviously not very scientific but it gives an general idea. Braton Prime was used instead of Soma or Boltor Prime as those weapons are way too strong.

 

Melee Test short version: 

Melee Test Long version with proof and builds used: 

Comparison with a Braton Prime (HS and a non-HS test): 

 

*Edit 3*
Do note that non-Heavy Gunner guys pretty much all get annihilated pretty fast (which is great compared to melee 1.0) and Stealth multipliers are so strong that it lets all melee weapons obtain overkill status (loki too stronk) 

 

*Edit 4*
People seem to be getting confused with the message here. I'm not saying melee sucks, I'm saying the prevalence of super armored enemies at high levels make melee only difficult and highly inefficient for most melee weapons. There is 0 issue facing against corpus or infested. Basically, nerf armor scaling or buff melee weapons to beat armor scaling.

Edited April 14, 2014 by TheJiggliestPoo

[Worira]

This is just a symptom of the broken armour scaling in general. Fix that, and this becomes much less of a problem.

[ZayTM]

+1

 

The Dual Zorens are in a similar boat as the Ichors (albeit they're not as good). Their damage output is substantially higher than any other melee weapons I have tested, and they out-damage their counterparts' channeled attacks even when the Zorens aren't being channeled.

Agreed that they shouldn't be nerfed. They feel about as powerful as I'd like melee to be. I'd rather see other weapons brought up to their level, or at least given some kind of utility. As it currently stands I have no reason to use any other melee weapons :/

[direcyphre]

Not sure how many melee weapons you've tried, but seemingly all melee does ridiculous amounts of damage. I've reveled in mowing down hordes of enemies with the nikana and dragon nikana recently. Yes, the Dual Ichors have the crit going for it, but dragon nikana already does twice the damage. They all get the job done and annihilate generally everything in a hit or two.

 

Though I do agree there are other weapon that could use a boost somewhere. Perhaps variations in Channeling damage bonus for certain weapons to give it a little more variety (such as adding greater efficiency or damage to a weapon with lower starting damage).

[cruceo]

I haven't tested myself but reading this brought the question: have you gotten a fully leveled stance for each weapon tested and included a proficient use of said stance while testing? That might be the balance you are calling for. Duel Ichor has a great "smash E to win" mode and can be used by anyone with high effectiveness but someone with say, the skana (which I didn't like using... the animation was weird to me) would need to use the stance to it's full potential be as strong as the strongest Ichor. 

 

Just a thought. It wouldn't bother me to know that the weapons are balanced assuming the skill is there to make proper use of the stances. (I do not have this skill yet with the scythes lol. I always end up just smashing E... lol)

[TheJiggliestPoo]

Not sure how many melee weapons you've tried, but seemingly all melee does ridiculous amounts of damage. I've reveled in mowing down hordes of enemies with the nikana and dragon nikana recently. Yes, the Dual Ichors have the crit going for it, but dragon nikana already does twice the damage. They all get the job done and annihilate generally everything in a hit or two.

 

Though I do agree there are other weapon that could use a boost somewhere. Perhaps variations in Channeling damage bonus for certain weapons to give it a little more variety (such as adding greater efficiency or damage to a weapon with lower starting damage).

 

You're missing the point. Like I said in my paragraph, weapons are fine vs non-armored enemies but just try fighting heavy gunners with your dragon nikana then try again using duo ichors with a corrosive double status chance/damage mods build and you'll see just how S#&$ty your nikana is in comparison. Don't even get me started on the non-ichor/dragonnikana weapons

 

*Edit*

I have tested nearly every melee weapon with all maxed mods along with spamming E vs combing. 

Edited April 14, 2014 by TheJiggliestPoo

[cruceo]

Also keep in mind the game isn't made to have all weapons be effective against all enemies. That is why damage 2.0 was so exciting. It actually made adjusting your mods between maps a thing. No use to run around with high pen against infested. Use slash and it'll seem OP.

 

Edit: Despite my posts, I do agree that the Duel Ichors have some serious advantages as an over-all good weapon regardless of enemy. I am not disputing that. I also agree that other weapons should have a higher crit to compensate or additional status chance. I do not, however, thing that all weapons should be equal regardless of enemy. I like the idea of using the right tool for the job.

Edited April 14, 2014 by cruceo

[TheJiggliestPoo]

I haven't tested myself but reading this brought the question: have you gotten a fully leveled stance for each weapon tested and included a proficient use of said stance while testing? That might be the balance you are calling for. Duel Ichor has a great "smash E to win" mode and can be used by anyone with high effectiveness but someone with say, the skana (which I didn't like using... the animation was weird to me) would need to use the stance to it's full potential be as strong as the strongest Ichor. 

 

Just a thought. It wouldn't bother me to know that the weapons are balanced assuming the skill is there to make proper use of the stances. (I do not have this skill yet with the scythes lol. I always end up just smashing E... lol)

 

Yes I have tried fully maxed stances with proper use (With the berserker mod you can mash E and still pull off your combo anyways with the insane attackspeed) it really doesn't matter. The key here is crit chance + status chance. Corrosive status kills armor allowing you to shred heavy gunners while crit is just great in general especially when it has a base 3x multiplier to crit

 

*Edit*

Heavy armored enemies are broken lvl 30+ without corrosive. It's the difference between tickling the enemy and killing them as if you're killing infested

Edited April 14, 2014 by TheJiggliestPoo

[Cwierz]

I found my dragon nikana can stand up to them modded right. Weapons that used to rely on charging need to be changed badly to do more damage or something, because they are VERY lackluster.

[TheJiggliestPoo]

Also keep in mind the game isn't made to have all weapons be effective against all enemies. That is why damage 2.0 was so exciting. It actually made adjusting your mods between maps a thing. No use to run around with high pen against infested. Use slash and it'll seem OP.

 

Edit: Despite my posts, I do agree that the Duel Ichors have some serious advantages as an over-all good weapon regardless of enemy. I am not disputing that. I also agree that other weapons should have a higher crit to compensate or additional status chance. I do not, however, thing that all weapons should be equal regardless of enemy. I like the idea of using the right tool for the job.

 

You are also missing the point. This thread is about high lvled/high armored enemies. If your melee weapon doesn't have high crit/status chances built in you will literally be scratching the enemy compared to duo ichors and this isn't even accounting for the fact that it is straight up better than your other weapons AND has more versatility. Vs any other type of mob your weapon really doesn't matter due to overkill. (A weapon that does 1k damage against a 100hp enemy vs a weapon that does 100 damage to an enemy will not seem so apart in strength. It is when you try killing heavy gunners do you realize just how crappy your non-ichors are.

 

*Edit*

 

This doesn't even account for the fact that most ranged weaponry still straight up beats melee. A melee buff is very needed and will no way break the game or even come close to making ranged weaponry obsolete

Edited April 14, 2014 by TheJiggliestPoo

[Naqel]

This is just a symptom of the broken balance in general. Fix that, and this becomes much less of a problem.

 

Fixed that for ya.

 

Also, buffing other weapons won't really fix much, since the reason Dual Ichors are as broken as they are, is that they have two additional layers of multiplicative scaling that other weapons don't.

 

Much like Soma, Dual Ichiors can not only scale multiplicatively by slapping elemental damage on top of base damage, but also by multiplying those even further through critical hit scaling.

 

An issue that wouldn't even occur if DE removed critical hits(as an RNG).

[TheGentlemanRolePlayer]

:) I dunno... I'm kinda happy with my Loki's invisible melee kills for 10-40k with my Dragon Nikana and the 4k a tick Gas AoE proc's with most -any- other weapon.

[CubedOobleck]

The Ichors are a beautiful coincidence: they are the best crit melee since they were introduced; damage 2.0 turned poison in one of the best innate elements to have as it is useful against all factions when correctly combined; they are decently fast, which is good for combos and mobility.

The only problem is that because of the crit mods there isn't much space for the channeling mods, but channeling is inefficient on fast weapons anyway.

Anyway back on topic, I agree, most other melee weapons still need a buff.

[TheJiggliestPoo]

:) I dunno... I'm kinda happy with my Loki's invisible melee kills for 10-40k with my Dragon Nikana and the 4k a tick Gas AoE proc's with most -any- other weapon.

 

Did you not read the part where I mentioned that it does not account for invisi/other ability buffing? Other frames don't get the privilege of having enemy stealth multipliers on top of ability stealth mulipliers on top of crits. You are also missing the point that this is about high lvled and high armoed enemies. All other enemies gets overkilled so it seems like your weapon is perfectly fine. But just try using duo ichors and even your 10-40k are a fraction of the damage that the ichors can pump out.

[direcyphre]

You're missing the point. Like I said in my paragraph, weapons are fine vs non-armored enemies but just try fighting heavy gunners with your dragon nikana then try again using duo ichors with a corrosive double status chance/damage mods build and you'll see just how S#&$ty your nikana is in comparison. Don't even get me started on the non-ichor/dragonnikana weapons

 

*Edit*

I have tested nearly every melee weapon with all maxed mods along with spamming E vs combing. 

I have, and like every other person who has played this game for any significant period of time, you can put the same elements on any weapon. There are no inherently unique elements included in any weapon once Damage 2.0 hit. It's nice and all that your Ichors do toxic damage, but since elemental damage mods do a percentage of the total damage, this dragon nikana will do even more damage. And yes, I have gone against grineer heavies without issue so far.

[TheJiggliestPoo]

I have, and like every other person who has played this game for any significant period of time, you can put the same elements on any weapon. There are no inherently unique elements included in any weapon once Damage 2.0 hit. It's nice and all that your Ichors do toxic damage, but since elemental damage mods do a percentage of the total damage, this dragon nikana will do even more damage. And yes, I have gone against grineer heavies without issue so far.

 

Except corrosive with low status chance = you're not dropping enemy armor at all. Don't believe me? Just try using the duo ichors with duo status chance mods then try again with other weapons. I already stated in my original post that the dragon nikana is one of the few weapons that is viable. Try using ANY other weapon. No really go into a T3 and fight heavies. I actually tested and isn't pulling poop from my butt.

 

*Edit*

Ichors still kill in a fraction of dragon nikanas. Stop putting your emotion ahead of your weapon. I love the dragon nikana the most but it is not up to part with ichors and I don't want to be stealthed the entire time for the massive damage as I like being able to see my character and sword.

Edited April 14, 2014 by TheJiggliestPoo

[TheJiggliestPoo]

All in all it won't hurt to buff melee. I will note that stealth makes melee weapons do overkill damage allowing pretty much all melee weapons to kill fast 

 

*Edit*

Videos added to help give a better picture of the discrepancy of Duo Ichors vs Dragon Nikana vs Ranged Weaponry (Braton Prime). 

Edited April 14, 2014 by TheJiggliestPoo

[Axterix13]

Except corrosive with low status chance = you're not dropping enemy armor at all. Don't believe me? Just try using the duo ichors with duo status chance mods then try again with other weapons. I already stated in my original post that the dragon nikana is one of the few weapons that is viable. Try using ANY other weapon. No really go into a T3 and fight heavies. I actually tested and isn't pulling poop from my butt.

If your case revolves around Heavy Gunners though, then the problem isn't with melee weapons, but rather with Heavy Gunners.  Or to be more specific, with how armor works and scales.

[TheJiggliestPoo]

If your case revolves around Heavy Gunners though, then the problem isn't with melee weapons, but rather with Heavy Gunners.  Or to be more specific, with how armor works and scales.

 

That's exactly what I was getting at which is why my TL;DR buff note calls for either bypassing armor or higher status chance

[dancingknight]

I tried the Dakra Prime on T3 extermination and I was able to kill heavy gunners in one combo. Granted, it's not T3 survival or defense where the enemies can go to even higher levels but I'm quite pleased with the weapon's performance.

I will test out my other weapons to see how well they perform. 

[Darkmoone1]

I tried the Dakra Prime on T3 extermination and I was able to kill heavy gunners in one combo. Granted, it's not T3 survival or defense where the enemies can go to even higher levels but I'm quite pleased with the weapon's performance.

I will test out my other weapons to see how well they perform. 

Using the Dragon Nikana, I also have no problems dispatching Heavy Gunners and do it pretty quickly. I think it's more of a problem for the Survival and Defense when people go to levels the game isn't even balanced around yet.

[Axterix13]

That's exactly what I was getting at which is why my TL;DR buff note calls for either bypassing armor or higher status chance

Higher status chance isn't the right answer, as that means you're essentially forcing people into certain damage types, as well as that it would provide bonuses against things that aren't armored.

 

And as to bypassing armor, why?  It isn't as if other sources of damage aren't equally reduced by armor.  Which means the problem is the amount of armor and/or how it works, and that that is what should be adjusted.

[taiiat]

Armor, i dunno. something is a bit out of hand with it, but i don't know what about it exactly.

 

what i do know, is that Armored Enemies are 100% superior to other types.

 

Flesh only Enemies are a joke, and Shielded Enemies are also a joke.

 

 

once upon a time, Shields didn't take Body part Multipliers. that meant they actually mattered. they'd protect the wearer from a few shots at worst. that meant that you would even want to think about Shields, because they did actually increase Survivability.

 

they take Body part Multipliers now, and therefore, Shields mean nothing. they don't scale as much as Armor. they are inferior in all ways.

i'm not saying allowing them to not take Body part Multipliers would be the only fix, but it would be a good start. increasing the scale trend of Shields on most Enemies would probably still need to happen though.

 

Armor blows everything else an Enemy has to survive out of the water so hard it isn't funny. most Grineer and certain Corrupted Enemies are the only threats there are in the game. the other factions can be easily killed by anything.

[HolidayPi3]

A bit off topic, but do you feel that elements should be prioritized over things like Corrupt Charge in order to maximize damage on heavies?

[gam3addict]

This is just a symptom of the broken armour scaling in general. Fix that, and this becomes much less of a problem.

Minor sidetrack, but WHY do we still have armor scaling? That was half the point of Damage 2.0, that and to curb rainbow builds. We still have both, why did they even bother?