Grineer Rollers

[Elhazzared]

Yes, Rollers are not deployed from any unit, they are a unit on their own right. Exception for the boss that does spawn them.

Also, I don't see why you fail to realise... Or just really don't want this to be but the roller's atack is AoE, it has a small AoE area which is why it can hit you mid jump if you're not high enough. Sure, the animation doesn't looks like it's anything of the kind but DE tried to make them look like Grineer stuff. Imagine them as shooting off a small pulse around them and you have a more realistic aprouch of what they really do (only that would make them look more like corpus stuff if they actually had a pulse animation).

Also, rollers have at least a 2 to 3 second cooldown between attacks in case you never noticed. I've had a rolloer go by me, attack, then turn around do another pass by and doing nothing cause the attack was on cooldown only to hit me again on the third passage. This hapenned many times.

You don't need to change anything to the roller's patterns, they are incredibly annoying yes, but again it's the only thing that makes Grineer have a minimal fighting chance. Notice how I say minimal because even then a player rarelly loses again them.

PS: A roller moving faster than characters can sprint? You can only be joking. normal run speed is the same for everyone, only sprint speed varies and a roller is only so very slightly faster than normal run speed. Any sprint, even a Rhino can easly outrun it.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Elhazzared

[Urika]

I think they should have a limited number of attacks and maybe half health...

[Elhazzared]

A vampire shouldn't be afraid of Rollers... Just sayin'! :D

[fauxhb]

rollers should have they health bumped down. keep the dmg, keep the speed and fire rate, but for God's sake, if you manage to hit em, let em die.

[HvcTerr]

A lot of you guys are confusing "easy vs hard" with "fun vs frustrating".

Hard rollers would be OK, but we've got frustrating rollers instead.

[Insanityman]

I think Rollers are perfect the way they are. Currently, when you fight Grineer, 95% of their damage can be avoided by just running around some cover. Rifleman Grineer don't advance, and melee Grineer are incredibly easy to deal with. Rollers force players to break out of their safe-zone by making it unsafe to stand around; Warframes have to react to rollers or risk being overwhelmed by slowly advancing enemies. Shoot them if you're skilled enough, blow an AoE ability if you just desperately want them gone; how rollers are dealth with is dependant on the players level of skill.

It's a great addition to the current combat blend, and while I agree they are incredibly annoying, I agree moreso with the reasons why they exist and why they should remaing in the game as they are.

im with you on that. i like them the way they are. they force a change in play style for the grineer, which adds some variety.

Rollers were the reason i learned to shoot while wall running (where they cant get you :D ).

the grineer need something to force players out of cover, rollers do it. they are annoying, especially when they spawn on the far side of the defence arena and you dont see it coming, but this game is about movement with your combat. short of a lot more commanders with switch teleport (holy #$@% no no no no, im loki, thats my schtick!) there isnt a lot to encourage movement right now. i dont like the loss of control they afford, but thats what makes them threatening. more damage would feel even more cheezy, and giving them a ranged attack and removing the stun would just result in more cheap deaths when a pack of 5 shows up out of nowhere. ive managed to escape 5 in melee with me, without using abilities, it is doable. just hammer whatever button combo you have bound to dive roll forward, and find a wall to run on. i wont say its easy, but its far from impossible.

the problem with reducing hp is that theyd be fragged by incidental shotgun pellets rather than a dedicated shot. electricity vulnerability would be a good addition, assuming they dont allready have it. and frost damage on a melee weapon also helps, ground pound to do a mass slow.

IDEA TIME!

if the rollers had a way to move the player around without a potential stunlock, then theyd still be a threat, just a less frustrating one. im going to borrow a mechanic from left 4 dead here - the smoker. anchors itself somewhere and pulls a player to them. some loss of control, but the player can still shoot back (for a time in L4D. reduce the tenno to pistols only while being dragged, but never incapacitate them). have the rollers (or another unit) harpoon the player and pull em to the ground and drag em outta cover for the other grineer to shoot at. the rollers have an AI that positions em well for that kind of thing, just dont let them drag the players full speed. it accomplishes the same effect, and someone quick on the draw (or a good shot with a lex) will get out fast, and even the less experienced players have a chance to save themselves before they get lit up by grineer machinegun fire.

*the point of this change is to allow them to fill their role of bunker buster/shock troops without as much frustration. there will be some frustration as the enemy forces you to change play styles on their terms, not yours, but you cant expect em to play nice all the time. anyone have any thoughts, comments on ideas on this?

Edited April 8, 2013 by Insanityman

[HvcTerr]

if the rollers had a way to move the player around without a potential stunlock, then theyd still be a threat, just a less frustrating one.

Sounds a little like Grineer Commanders and their slightly schitzophrenic "teleport you into the middle of a bunch of Grineer" strategy. :P

The biggest problem with "moving players" is that the AI for that is trickier. How do you determine where the player ought to be moved to, particularly when (unlike L4D2) the enemies shoot from cover rather than mob with melee?

Edited April 8, 2013 by HvcTerr

[Insanityman]

im thinking the rollers lasso the player, take them to the downed state with pistols only and slowly move them out from behind the cover/obstacles. once the roller is dead, the player stands back up. in the hallways of corpus vessels, thats easy, bring em to the middle of the hall and slowly pull towards the guys with rifles. or pull them through osprey mines XD . the AI is programmed to use cover, they should also know how to try to deny a player that advantage in some way. howd i do?

and man oh man do the commanders mess me up. not used to being teleported unless i initiated it XD i think part of the frustration comes from having an "all or nothing" approach to the enemies that are denying you cover. full on stunlock, or "BZORT TELEPORTED HAHAHAHAHAHA" leaves nothing in between, no feeling like the player even had a chance to prevent being cheezed to death. the commanders arent bad that way, and are thanfully few and far between. rollers are easier to deal with in some regards, but once theyve got you, theyve got you. even a slim chance to fight back would do wonders i think.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Insanityman

[holdenagincourt]

[size=4]You don't need to change anything to the roller's patterns, they are incredibly annoying yes, but again it's the only thing that makes Grineer have a minimal fighting chance. Notice how I say minimal because even then a player rarelly loses again them.[/size]

The better (and obvious) solution is to make the other Grineer less spectacularly ineffective, not have cheap behaviors masquerade as a challenge.

I don't fail to realize the roller has an area of effect, that's quite obvious considering that it's hitting me when I'm ten feet above it in midair and it's on the ground, lol. I think it shouldn't, because it's even further application of a cheap, frustrating game mechanic.

I didn't "never notice" that rollers have no cooldown on their attacks, and nothing in my post suggests as much. The point is that the interval between your character recovering from an initial stagger animation and being able to retaliate or escape from the effective range of rollers, which as you pointed out have an AOE, is too small, especially since they're rarely encountered on their own and multiples can chain stagger for quite a while until you can escape.

And they have pursued and staggered characters I've been sprinting with. Either that or I started a sprint, only to be staggered by a roller and prevented from continuing it. Funny how that works.

Again, the Grineer being incompetent is not a good rationale for frustrating enemy behaviors. As someone above has said, this is not a real difficulty or a challenge, it's just an obstacle to enjoyment of the game.

P.S. Your use of phrases like "fail to realise" and "in case you never noticed" is unnecessary. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you have to regard them with a patronizing tone.

[Elhazzared]

The better (and obvious) solution is to make the other Grineer less spectacularly ineffective, not have cheap behaviors masquerade as a challenge.

I don't fail to realize the roller has an area of effect, that's quite obvious considering that it's hitting me when I'm ten feet above it in midair and it's on the ground, lol. I think it shouldn't, because it's even further application of a cheap, frustrating game mechanic.

I didn't "never notice" that rollers have no cooldown on their attacks, and nothing in my post suggests as much. The point is that the interval between your character recovering from an initial stagger animation and being able to retaliate or escape from the effective range of rollers, which as you pointed out have an AOE, is too small, especially since they're rarely encountered on their own and multiples can chain stagger for quite a while until you can escape.

And they have pursued and staggered characters I've been sprinting with. Either that or I started a sprint, only to be staggered by a roller and prevented from continuing it. Funny how that works.

Again, the Grineer being incompetent is not a good rationale for frustrating enemy behaviors. As someone above has said, this is not a real difficulty or a challenge, it's just an obstacle to enjoyment of the game.

P.S. Your use of phrases like "fail to realise" and "in case you never noticed" is unnecessary. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you have to regard them with a patronizing tone.

Forgive me for that but when this topic is overly debated and it's clearly obvious that there is no need for a change and people only focus on something so minor taking no notion or at least seamingly not to just because something is a pain in the &#! to deal with. One tends to get that tone. I didn't meant any offense with that however.

Now getting back into the debate. You are right that they could make the grineer better but how do you make it better? Well, at this point you can do it by increasing their health and their damage however what this does is forcing players to go into a slow type of fighting. Being able to take less hits and taking longer to finish enemies means you have too use cover more often and waste more bullets This severely slows down gamepace except of course for a few frames like say Loki. Decoy, Invisibillity. Forget slowing a Loki down and that will bring a warframe balance issue cause then some warframes become quite distintctly OP over most others. Adding the stagger like all other faction have is the perfect solution to it and they are not really that OP. They can be more bothersome than other staggering units, but that is it. they are not OP, they just force you to re-evaluate your approuch to the situation.

Also I don't know how do you have such problems with their cooldown on attacks. To be honest and like I said. first roll they stagger you. Even before they turn around you already recovered from the stagger and can shoot at them. That second pass by they make (Assuming it didn't barged into something to make it lose time but if it did more time to kill it anyway) it will no hit you, they will go through without attacking cause they are on cooldown while you shoot at them. Then ou turn arround and they make their way in a straight line until they turn again and come again straight at you and this time you will be hit by the roller again, but in the meantime there was a lot of time to kill it.

Well they persue you as you sprint, I do not put that into question but will they catch you? No, they will fall behind. Of course, if you just started sprinting as it came close enough, well obviously you don't manage to run but hey, you let it that close to begin with. Now that it staggered you and if you feel that you really need to put a lot of distance, run while it is on cooldown.

Some people say that having 3 or 4 will perman stagger you to death. It can be true, I've managed to flee from 3 but I can see it just happening, however how often do you find that many? Usually they come alone, sometimes there is 2 of them. Rare is the case of 3 or even 4 and they happen more oftenly when it's a mobile defense where you basicly are defending omaha beach against the allied forces pouring from the ships (Just a little analogy I like to think of). Still I've always been able to deal with this.

Even Kela, the lovely person (Or not) that spawns those rollers (and don't ask me where she takes them from cause you know what my likelly answer will be since I have a dirty mind) isn't hard at all. I thought solo she'd be a challenge. Oh boy, was I wrong! I've done it for the first time today with a friend who plays a loki. My strategy was simple. You stay in stealth and hit her with the gram (since he mostly mellees and it has more upgrades than god has powers). I got my AFuris and we dove in after her. I was going to hit her and take care of the rollers as much as possible. Needless to say I got all the agro as there was no decoys placed to get her attention. I killed the rollers even though I was stagggered once or twice, I did over half the DPS on her since AFuris are the doom of any boss or indeed anything in the game. If felt no challenge at all and I'm sure I could have solo-ed it easly. At best there was 2 rollers out and only at the very begining, then I destroyed one as soon as she threw one or after it did the passage by me, only to focus fire on her again.

Rollers are nor any better than any other staggers of other factions, they do behave more annoyingly but they do are balanced.

[wafflepiezz]

I agree that rollers and especially shockwave MOAs are good mobs with decent mechanics for this game, but I strongly request that they be nerfed.

The rollers are immensely hard to destroy when they are in groups; actually even just one of them is hard to destroy. By the time you get knocked away by a roller and try to shoot at it as quickly as possible when you regain your balance, the roller runs through you again, rendering you unable to do much but waste some powerups to kill just ONE roller.

Shockwave MOAs are the same with this above^, only their shockwave lasts too long in my opinion and how do you "fall" from simply stepping onto its orange wave line? That's a bit overpowered and needs nerfing.

Nerf: Reduce the cooldown of regaining balance when getting toppled by a roller OR reduce the amount of activity coming from a roller AND/OR make it not possible for a roller to hit you every split second; add some time between each hits.

Shockwave MOA's shockwave radius should be reduced, because especially on Defense missions they're immensely hard to kill accompanied by shields (also a bit overpowered), railgun MOAs, walkers and a huge grineer force. The time that your character gets up or regains balance from a shockwave should be decreased, so players are able to regain balance quicker.

Edited April 8, 2013 by wafflepiezz

[Webly]

Best suggestion.

Don't stand there like a newbie. Seriously.

Just run around and use "Karate kick" W+Shift -> Space -> CTRL. [Hold]

They can't touch you airborn. And you can easily reload while being in flying kick position no matter how high you are jumping and falling it won't trigger roll.

Also that's the reason why +Reload Speed beats Magazine size.

This isn't intuitive or sensical at all.

The rollers should just be reworked so they are challenging but still fun.

[Webly]

Also sorry to double post, but people who keep saying that every problem reported with this game is fine and nothing needs to be changed need to stop taking it personally.

This is a BETA, player feedback like this is what a beta is for!

We aren't insulting the game or its devs or you for finding a fault in a beta.

[Roboplus]

or how about this. they can only hit you 3 or 4 times then they die.

Completely on board with this. They aren't perpetual motion devices and they're method of attack is hitting you with themselves. Every strike they take against you should wear them down a little. Damage themselves, slow down slightly; something. If you can survive that long, you should be able to gradually recover from a few. But if you ignore them and enough turn up, they should overwhelm you.

I say let them hit players sliding in the air and let them climb up walls too. Make them fair and gradually weakened, but difficult and inescapable through cheap tricks.

[Darzk]

I like the increased delay before another pass or severly reduced health suggestions. I also think they should be able to climb up surfaces to get to players, but slowly. The AI should be tweaked so they never stand still.

I choose to face Grineer with Paris, Akbolto, and DHS... all of which is extremely illsuited for killing rollers.

Im utterly infuriated that the most challenging mob in the game for me is a little rolling ball generated by another mob.

[Elhazzared]

I agree that rollers and especially shockwave MOAs are good mobs with decent mechanics for this game, but I strongly request that they be nerfed.

The rollers are immensely hard to destroy when they are in groups; actually even just one of them is hard to destroy. By the time you get knocked away by a roller and try to shoot at it as quickly as possible when you regain your balance, the roller runs through you again, rendering you unable to do much but waste some powerups to kill just ONE roller.

Shockwave MOAs are the same with this above^, only their shockwave lasts too long in my opinion and how do you "fall" from simply stepping onto its orange wave line? That's a bit overpowered and needs nerfing.

Nerf: Reduce the cooldown of regaining balance when getting toppled by a roller OR reduce the amount of activity coming from a roller AND/OR make it not possible for a roller to hit you every split second; add some time between each hits.

Shockwave MOA's shockwave radius should be reduced, because especially on Defense missions they're immensely hard to kill accompanied by shields (also a bit overpowered), railgun MOAs, walkers and a huge grineer force. The time that your character gets up or regains balance from a shockwave should be decreased, so players are able to regain balance quicker.

Shockwave moas... Really? They are slow as hell to make the AoE attack, they are easy to kill and by easy I mean a light tap on the trigger and they are dead. That's how easy they die. You jump over the shockwave. You can hide behind something because the shockwave only knocks you down if there is direct line of sight from the starting point to where you are. If you have problems with these then you are a really bad player. Not that there is anything wrong with being a bad player, don't get me wrong but don't make the rest of the community suffer because of you.

Let me tell you hard is a roller to destroy. 3 shots from a bad weapon, say a unupgraded braton or 1 shot from a lex. And yes, they are dificult to hit, given that I hit them more often than not with a lex... I might also add that while I can snipe a non moving target efficiently, the same isn't true for a moving target. Also you say they stagger you and by the time you recover from the stagger they are already staggering you again? What BS is this? They hit you then as they start to turn around you already recoverd. More so they have a cooldown on their attack so even if they come straight at you again they will not attack because of the cooldown, they will only pass you by if you don't kill them and then they'll have to run around and try to hit you again. You have ample of time. You're just either a very bad player or want an autowin button like so many others.

I like the increased delay before another pass or severly reduced health suggestions. I also think they should be able to climb up surfaces to get to players, but slowly. The AI should be tweaked so they never stand still.

I choose to face Grineer with Paris, Akbolto, and DHS... all of which is extremely illsuited for killing rollers.

Im utterly infuriated that the most challenging mob in the game for me is a little rolling ball generated by another mob.

Sorry, but if you happen to chose wrong your weapons, don't blame it on the game. Learn to complement your weapons. One sniper with a high rate firing gun, that's the way to do it.

[Kanary]

Being mobile is the way to go, move around eliminate the source (enemy that deployed the roller) and then the problem(roller). I found that jumping on object caused the rollers to get stuck. But I like dual pistols and can normally just shot them and then kill the source.

[Tsukinoki]

Sorry, but if you happen to chose wrong your weapons, don't blame it on the game. Learn to complement your weapons. One sniper with a high rate firing gun, that's the way to do it.

The game shouldn't force you to run with a few specific loadouts just on the chance that you'll come across enemies that will make your favorite loadout completely useless, or make it a handicap that reduces fun/increases frustration. That is not good balance.

In a game like this all loadouts should be viable, weather it be all slow firing/hitting weapons or all relatively fast weapons. I personally go around with Akboltos, gram, and paris and occasionally boltor. Why? I like that load out and it is fun. If the game was balanced (which it does need some overall balancing in buffing some enemies and changing/nerfing others) than any loadout of the proper level should be perfectly viable.

In a game like this saying "Oh well, you chose the wrong weapons" shouldn't be expected, nor should it happen. Otherwise why even give the option if they are the "wrong" choice? What they need to do is make it so that it is more doable to take out the rollers with any type of weapon without cheesing the AI by jumping on a box somewhere.

Also you say they stagger you and by the time you recover from the stagger they are already staggering you again? What BS is this? They hit you then as they start to turn around you already recoverd. More so they have a cooldown on their attack so even if they come straight at you again they will not attack because of the cooldown, they will only pass you by if you don't kill them and then they'll have to run around and try to hit you again. You have ample of time. You're just either a very bad player or want an autowin button like so many others.

I have seen the multi-stagger, and been on the recieving end, from a single roller before. And I want more difficulty but I want "fair"/"fun" difficulty, not annoying difficulty. And there is a huge difference. Things should be harder but they shouldnt be frustrating to a huge section of your playerbase.

Its like when you're unlucky and a huge number of railgun moas spawn at once (which used to be a problem in cbt where a single type of enemy would over spawn though its mostly fixed now) and just stun lock you. Is it difficult? Yes. Is it fun? No. The same thing can happen with a large enough group of rollers and some warframes, such as Ash, dont have an immeadiate answer to get rid of a large enough group of them meaning its quite possible to get stunlocked in a few areas if you're unlucky enough to have a large spawn of them.

[Zeunchainn]

Just jump on a box or somewhere unreachable for roller they will try to chase you there but will get stuck and be easy to shoot.

[Elhazzared]

The game gives a lot of useful weapons, in fact I don't even think I can say for a fact that there are just plain bad weapons in the game. Hoewever you don't go into a mission bringing a sniper rifle with a sniper pistol and expect enemies to conviniently line up at long range for you to kill them off. No, all loadout shouldn't be usable in every mission because if they were it would mean the game was so easy it wasn't even worth playing. You have to be prepared to deal with enemies at close and long ranges and you have plenty of weapons that do either. You can chose which you like most to deal with the situation but again, you gotta be prepared to deal with both cases or be prepared to fight at a major disadvantage.

Also I'm sorry but your fair/fun is I don't want a challenge. Enemies that stagger or kncok you down annoying because they are the reason you die. They are annoying because they prevent you from just walk into a room and murder everything at your own pace without opposition. In any game that you play you have several types of enemies with several abillities and this kind of abillities which are equative to stuns are hardly far from being rare. It is up to you to learn how to deal with them because they aren't OP in anyway, if anything they give the AI a fighting a chance. And I say chance, because really, the chances the AI still has to kill is not that high!

Do you know how I deal with rollers? Get in high places, run so that they move in a straight line and shoot them or in some cases, take the stagger and kill it after it staggered me, I know at best it will manage to do so twice. I'f I'm feeling lazy or in a real bad spot I'll pop an abillity that kills it or just deals with it in some way, any warframe has an abillity to deal with it and Ash has Blade storm, it just hits it an kills it. You have smoke screen to go invisible and just get away from it, it will also stun it for a good measure so stun kill is viable. You even have a teleport which can take you away from it to give you time to shoot it as it comes for your from a long distance.

Railgun moas... yeah they are also a bother. They stagger you but you can move, quickly (or as quickly as you can) hide behind the fist thing you find and then kill them one by one. It's rare when you can't find a piece of cover that will let you slowly crawl out of it slowly by giving line of sight for just one of them.

Is the stun lock fun? Well I find that being in situations that are difficult to deal with to be fun and it feels especially rewarding when you overcome. I don't have more or less fun for it being in the form of high damage dealling enemies or by stuns.

[Fujimura]

if solo just jump on top of a box or run along the wall and shoot them, in both cases they cant hit you.

[Tsukinoki]

The game gives a lot of useful weapons, in fact I don't even think I can say for a fact that there are just plain bad weapons in the game. Hoewever you don't go into a mission bringing a sniper rifle with a sniper pistol and expect enemies to conviniently line up at long range for you to kill them off. No, all loadout shouldn't be usable in every mission because if they were it would mean the game was so easy it wasn't even worth playing. You have to be prepared to deal with enemies at close and long ranges and you have plenty of weapons that do either. You can chose which you like most to deal with the situation but again, you gotta be prepared to deal with both cases or be prepared to fight at a major disadvantage.

No I dont expect them to line up so I can kill them off, and I have used akboltos (which actually have a fairly high rate of fire and are accurate if you know how to to aim them) in close range combat, but I also use the paris at mid range because its easy getting headshots with it. And basically you are saying "Well, you may like this loadout but its only usable in one mission, tough luck" That shouldn't happen in a game. For the most part the sniper pistol and sniper rifle work in all of the situations if you know how to use them, its only against a single enemy type that suddenly its becomes mostly useless, ignorring some bosses because they are hard to solo even with the right weaponry because of how fast their shields recharge.

Also I'm sorry but your fair/fun is I don't want a challenge. Enemies that stagger or kncok you down annoying because they are the reason you die. They are annoying because they prevent you from just walk into a room and murder everything at your own pace without opposition. In any game that you play you have several types of enemies with several abillities and this kind of abillities which are equative to stuns are hardly far from being rare. It is up to you to learn how to deal with them because they aren't OP in anyway, if anything they give the AI a fighting a chance. And I say chance, because really, the chances the AI still has to kill is not that high!

I want a challenge. I love challenges. I play Darksouls and Demons Souls all the time and they are very challenging games. But they are FAIR in their challenge. They dont just throw hordes of enemies at you that can stun lock you to death without chance for recovery if you are unlucky enough to get a big group of them.

Do I want to just walk into a room and kill anything without opposition? No.

Do I want to walk in and have a fun yet challenging time? Yes.

You can more easily achieve that by working on the current grineer AI and unit types then throwing an enemy out there that just annoys you and is frustrating to fight instead of fun.

Do you know how I deal with rollers? Get in high places, run so that they move in a straight line and shoot them or in some cases, take the stagger and kill it after it staggered me, I know at best it will manage to do so twice. I'f I'm feeling lazy or in a real bad spot I'll pop an abillity that kills it or just deals with it in some way, any warframe has an abillity to deal with it and Ash has Blade storm, it just hits it an kills it. You have smoke screen to go invisible and just get away from it, it will also stun it for a good measure so stun kill is viable. You even have a teleport which can take you away from it to give you time to shoot it as it comes for your from a long distance.

One issue with teleport: i teleport to an enemy and then ash takes his sweet time finishing the animation while I am shot at and the rollers come right back over to me so im not in much better of a position than I was originally.

Second: Smoke bomb works...unless the rollers are already mid air and coming at you.

Bladestorms targeting can be wonky at times, as it is the only level 4 ability that requires a target, and I have had it pass over rollers for grineer (though tbh it has happened the other way around as well).

Also some of the bad spots are grineer commanders or heavy gunners. Reason for the heavy gunners: they knock you over and as you are getting up you are stun locked by a few rollers while the gunner rips you apart. True that gives the grineer a fighting chance at killing you but is it fun or fair?

Also, when is it good design that the best/only way(in large enough groups), to beat an enemy is to exploit a hole in its AI?

Railgun moas... yeah they are also a bother. They stagger you but you can move, quickly (or as quickly as you can) hide behind the fist thing you find and then kill them one by one. It's rare when you can't find a piece of cover that will let you slowly crawl out of it slowly by giving line of sight for just one of them.

Is the stun lock fun? Well I find that being in situations that are difficult to deal with to be fun and it feels especially rewarding when you overcome. I don't have more or less fun for it being in the form of high damage dealling enemies or by stuns.

Railgun moas can shoot through a lot of cover actually, they have a really high pierce, so you just have to run at them as fast as you can being staggered the whole way and shot at. Again challenging but not really fun. Though at least they are more fun than a like sized pack of rollers.

I do enjoy situations that are difficult to deal with but I prefer that the enemies are fun and fair, not just frustrating. I grew up on a bunch of old games that all they had was frustrating difficulty. Was it rewarding to finally fight you way through and overcome them? Yes it was increadibly rewarding. Should all games have frustrating difficulties because of that? No. A lot of gamers now a days dont want something that is pure frustration to fight that occasionally comes up and ruins an otherwise fun run through of a level.

[Grilleds]

I've been playing shooters for quite a while, so hitting them with a Lex isn't a problem for me, and using a Strun to take them on is even easier. However when soloing, these things can get pretty annoying due to knockback throwing off my aim, so what I do when playing with teams is usually jump on a box or something, wait for them to go after teammates, then shoot them before they can actually hit them. If there are several, I'll focus on dealing with the rollers first to the exclusion of everything else around me unless I have energy for an AoE ability. This usually helps my team more than if I was to just sit around shooting the rest of the often easily killed Grineer.

However I haven't used the Lex in a while, and taking them out with something like a Viper can be pretty annoying. Roller's are probably the best excuse in the game for at least one person on the time to take a high single shot damage weapon like a Strun, Snipetron or a Lex.

[Fujimura]

Not sure I understand the complaints about shockwave MOA's i typically just run right into them and hit them with frost from melee weapons / or headshot them with frost from burston/braton/hek/strun any of these go through the moa pretty quickly, I could see how they can potentially be annoying for single shot users like the paris, but even when I was using the Lex i just slide backwards or run away from them once they stop.

When I am with a team, I can see the complaint especially when you have a speed loki out ahead who causes them to stomp before you get there so you get bumped by the first one, the 2nd one next to you starts his stomp right before you get bumped by the 1st one and then you get bumped again, and a similar situation can occur with a 3rd one, but outside of that ;x they don't seem that strong and go down pretty quickly.

I've been playing shooters for quite a while, so hitting them with a Lex isn't a problem for me, and using a Strun to take them on is even easier. However when soloing, these things can get pretty annoying due to knockback throwing off my aim, so what I do when playing with teams is usually jump on a box or something, wait for them to go after teammates, then shoot them before they can actually hit them. If there are several, I'll focus on dealing with the rollers first to the exclusion of everything else around me unless I have energy for an AoE ability. This usually helps my team more than if I was to just sit around shooting the rest of the often easily killed Grineer.

However I haven't used the Lex in a while, and taking them out with something like a Viper can be pretty annoying. Roller's are probably the best excuse in the game for at least one person on the time to take a high single shot damage weapon like a Strun, Snipetron or a Lex.

And yes when with a team, be nice and shoot the rollers off your teammates ^^ its like when on corpus maps and shooting cameras as you see them.

[MercuriaI_Temper]

I say keep them exactly as is. I find being swarmed by them to be incredibly exciting and endlessly hilarious when observing a player getting stunlocked to death. I personally have never had issue with them, as level 16 lightly modified Aklatos can take them out in 2 hits, and can outmaneuver them quite easily. The biggest problem they've ever caused was me getting taken out by that female boss that produces them, and my friend being unable to heal me because he was trapped in a corner with multiple Rollers taking turns with him. While I can easily find this situation to be very frustrating, I was very amused by it all, took our losses, and went back at it.

I can also see why people have issues with Shockwave MOAs, as I remember when our team first encountered them and the game ramped up in difficulty. But we kept at it, got mods, bought new weapons, and now they are easily overcome. The time it takes to initiate their shockwave spells their doom, and the actual attack is hilariously slow to achieve its apex. Even when we had trouble with them, we acknowledged it was our own faults, as we'd often crack jokes at the slowly expanding orb, asking ourselves how we could possibly get hit by that thing.

I say leave everything the way it is, in fact to add more Rollers to the Grineer. I've only seen a handful of them in the wild, and almost all of my experience with them comes from grinding out that one boss for Saryn parts. More challenge to the Grineer sounds like a good idea to me.