Ember - The Revamp

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Im not going to rant about the overheat ability. Because I know it is game breaking.

 

But as it stands, we all know Ember does fire damage only. And thats the problem.

 

Heat Damage is only good versus cloned flesh, infested and flesh. So...

 

Chargers and Leapers

Volatile Runners and Crawlers.

And most grineer units BUT keep in mind,

They have armor! So to penetrate the armor you need either radiation (bombards & napalms) or corrosive (ferrite)

 

Basically ember super effectiveness only pertains to a small group of enemies. Across the board, her fire damage has no bonuses on all the other enemies except for robots (moas) which decrease the fire damage by 50%. Ember has no bonus effect on corpus units but, the things is they have shield which requires cold to break.

 

Another problem, she only has 10 armor:

 

If you dont know how low 10 armor is think of it this way: You have 700 health, u breeze by a toxic ancient (mid-high level) and you make small contact with the toxic cloud, that's it ur either going down or losing 90% of your health. You can get 1 hit by a level 25 ancient (non shielded).

 

Im not saying to put back overheat, but at least add some armor to her, make her abilities apart from the damage system. So she can be more viable in higher level content. Essentially (imo) Ember's armor is way to low for the damage she does.

Edited April 20, 2014 by TraparDensity

[RegularGamer]

And volt only deals electricity damage, and frost only deals freeze damage.

I don't really see the problem here.

Ember is supposed to be good against enemies with low armor.

 

Armor is indeed a bit low though.

Edited April 20, 2014 by RegularGamer

[(PSN)CrazyDeadPerson]

Im not going to rant about the overheat ability. Because I know it is game breaking.

 

But as it stands, we all know Ember does fire damage only. And thats the problem.

 

Heat Damage is only good versus cloned flesh, infested and flesh. So...

 

Chargers and Leapers

Volatile Runners and Crawlers.

And most grineer units BUT keep in mind,

They have armor! So to penetrate the armor you need either radiation (bombards & napalms) or corrosive (ferrite)

 

Basically ember super effectiveness only pertains to a small group of enemies. Across the board, her fire damage has no bonuses on all the other enemies except for robots (moas) which decrease the fire damage by 50%. Ember has no bonus effect on corpus units but, the things is they have shield which requires cold to break.

 

Another problem, she only has 10 armor:

 

If you dont know how low 10 armor is think of it this way: You have 700 health, u breeze by a toxic ancient (mid-high level) and you make small contact with the toxic cloud, that's it ur either going down or losing 90% of your health. You can get 1 hit by a level 25 ancient (non shielded).

 

Im not saying to put back overheat, but at least add some armor to her, make her abilities apart from the damage system. So she can be more viable in higher level content. Essentially (imo) Ember's armor is way to low for the damage she does.

this is a problem with just about all casters u cant fix it

[VKhaun]

But as it stands, we all know Ember does fire damage only. And thats the problem.

 

 

this is a problem with just about all casters u cant fix it

 

Except it's not a problem with Ember and they already 'fixed' it?

 

Accelerant debuffs fire resist by insane amounts. Her powers are still strong at higher levels than any of the other 'mage' like elemental warframes, and her guns with fire mods continue to make her a damage powerhouse throughout the game.

 

The only buff she needs, IF she needs one, is more team synergy because no one runs around with fire on their guns right now so Accelerant is pretty selfish except for the stun.

Edited April 20, 2014 by VKhaun

[LoopStricken]

this is a problem with just about all casters u cant fix it

 

It's almost like she could use an ability that keeps her alive whilst she activates her close-range attacks... maybe if it boosted her armour, and also did a small bit of AoE damage?

We could call it something like... I don't know, baked.

[Nyxcha]

And volt only deals electricity damage, and frost only deals freeze damage.

I don't really see the problem here.

Ember is supposed to be good against enemies with low armor.

 

Armor is indeed a bit low though.

they have utility. they can adapt

 

volt has speed and a shield

frost has snow globe and a ton of armor

 

ember, has no way to survive damage

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

And volt only deals electricity damage

Yes but volt has chain lightning, speed (good utility) and electric sheild when paired with a synapse does massive damage.

 

and frost only deals freeze damage.

Yes but he has Snow Globe which is a very useful defense cast.

 

this is a problem with just about all casters u cant fix it

No its not a problem, most casters have an ability that is really useful for the team. Whereas ember only does damage, she has no team buffs only self buffs.

 

 

they have utility. they can adapt

 

volt has speed and a shield

frost has snow globe and a ton of armor

 

ember, has no way to survive damage

I agree 100%

Edited April 20, 2014 by TraparDensity

[VKhaun]

Frost and Volt were not described as pure mages. They're meant to eventually go into utility defense. Ember is not meant to go to utility. Ember is a pure mage and her damage scales far beyond those other frames. Her defense is in the form of a quick CC from Accelerant. it is the keystone of the whole frame, and they explained very carefully why they swapped it with overheat when they made the change. She. Is. Not. A. Tank. She's a squishy high risk high damage dealer and she's working perfectly.

 

You may as well make a thread saying Trinity needs a ranged AoE nuke because she's so bad at ranged attacks. It's not what she's made for.

 

 

 

 

I don't know why I bother.

 

I'm not even on this side of the argument, I think every frame needs some kind of utility to phase into for the sake of the game's Co-op, and I don't like having just a high risk and high damage frame with such low utility in PUG's. Plus when we get neutral ability mods it's -IMHO- extremely likely that an ability like Overheat will be among those neutral abilities and Ember can just slap that on and be whatever she wants, just like I'm sure Trinity could with an attack of some kind.

 

But you people are WRONG on the INTERNET!

Something must be said! >.<

Edited April 20, 2014 by VKhaun

[RealPandemonium]

I recently Built Ember for mastery (already have Ember Prime and love her) so I didn't get a potato since I already have Ember Prime.  I was worried it might be a little bit of a drag due to the lack of a potato but to my surprise I had a blast leveling to 30 using just Fire Ball and Accelerant.  I took my level 17 Ember into a T3 survival with just 1 and 2 and max efficiency, rank 2 Blind Rage, and Intensify (75/57 build) and was surviving and killing just fine until around 45 minutes where the Heavy Gunners started to require specialized weaponry to take down but all other units were still succumbing to my ability spam.  I died four times, two of those were because I was typing.  Accelerant and Fire Ball's proc kept me safe and I was only level 17 with no potato or forma.  If I would change anything about Ember it would be making Fire Blast a fun and reliable skill (it is not now and is made obsolete by Fire Ball spam) and increasing the base duration on WoF since it's a pain to mod for in its current state (requires range, efficiency, strength, and duration to optimize) and should not be the focus of a build since it is a passive effect (a damn strong and cool one though,) not the focus of gameplay.  

Edited May 1, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

No, she's fine as she is with the possible exceptions.

 

1) Needs a speed increase to 1.5 

2) Fireblast could do with a knock back/ AoE Stun and the blast affected by range mods (not the ring) as the damage is minimal.

3) Ember Prime's missing Polarity slot please can this be addressed.

 

If you want her fire damage increased, then Accelerant's damage buff % needs to be toned down by the same % as you would increase Ember's raw power damage on Fire ball Fire Blast and WoF

 

Armour is also crap, unless one has huge lvls of armour, like Valkyr lvls, extra armour doesn't make a difference. Although Frankly if you are getting one shotted by Toxic Ancients OP, what the hell are you doing that close? WoF has a range of 15m, Accelerant gives a 3 second stun, casting accelerant and then using WoF wipes out everything in range. You can generate over 27,000 damage over 16 seconds with a fairly basic setup, no other DoT frame in the game comes even close to that.

[Nyxcha]

No, she's fine as she is with the possible exceptions.

 

1) Needs a speed increase to 1.5 

2) Fireblast could do with a knock back/ AoE Stun and the blast affected by range mods (not the ring) as the damage is minimal.

3) Ember Prime's missing Polarity slot please can this be addressed.

 

If you want her fire damage increased, then Accelerant's damage buff % needs to be toned down by the same % as you would increase Ember's raw power damage on Fire ball Fire Blast and WoF

 

Armour is also crap, unless one has huge lvls of armour, like Valkyr lvls, extra armour doesn't make a difference. Although Frankly if you are getting one shotted by Toxic Ancients OP, what the hell are you doing that close? WoF has a range of 15m, Accelerant gives a 3 second stun, casting accelerant and then using WoF wipes out everything in range. You can generate over 27,000 damage over 16 seconds with a fairly basic setup, no other DoT frame in the game comes even close to that.

 

intresting.

 

but speed increase to 1.5 is ovekill as thats faster than any

1.2 would be enough to let her keep up with Rhino, Rhino prime, nova, and most other frames

 

Fireblast should be replaced with the thing fire leaders use (that gradually expanding ring of fire that knocksdown.

 

Firebolt is my favorite skill for the sound and explosion, but giving it a bit of stagger on impact would make it perfect

 

as for World on fire....

1. make those explosions 100% fire proc chance! 

2. make those explosions stagger thier target(its the fkin world blowing up!)

3. give the explosions a bit of AoE on the explosion (no it isnt overkill, cause nova's slows enemys down, increases dmg done to them, and causes all deaths to cause dmg to surrounding enemys)

so giving the explosions a bit of AoE would not be overkill.

 

but, keep in mind for her to do her max dpm, she needs to survive in the midst of the enemy(otherwise she does very very little dmg)

so the speed or armor or dmg res  or CC resist (one of those)  is essential to make her work!

[TunaMayo]

For me, fireblast is an extremely situational skill other than against infest. That would be where I would start in making ember more viable.

Perhaps a power that boosts embers speed, leaving a trail of flames? You could achieve the same end as fireblast, but also use it to survive?

Or maybe a more defensive, flame version of turbulence? Ember sets herself alight, giving her a chance to melt incoming projectiles or set melee attackers on fire?

Also, if accelerant was an aura (that still only stunned enemies once mind you) it would be more useful imho. At the moment it's a very expensive stun that only debuffs the enemies in your radius upon casting. I feel that if it had a duration in a radius around ember, stunning enemies upon entering the radius and debuffing them all for the duration, it might have a more effective use.

[RealPandemonium]

intresting.

 

but speed increase to 1.5 is ovekill as thats faster than any

1.2 would be enough to let her keep up with Rhino, Rhino prime, nova, and most other frames

 

Fireblast should be replaced with the thing fire leaders use (that gradually expanding ring of fire that knocksdown.

 

Firebolt is my favorite skill for the sound and explosion, but giving it a bit of stagger on impact would make it perfect

 

as for World on fire....

1. make those explosions 100% fire proc chance! 

2. make those explosions stagger thier target(its the fkin world blowing up!)

3. give the explosions a bit of AoE on the explosion (no it isnt overkill, cause nova's slows enemys down, increases dmg done to them, and causes all deaths to cause dmg to surrounding enemys)

so giving the explosions a bit of AoE would not be overkill.

 

but, keep in mind for her to do her max dpm, she needs to survive in the midst of the enemy(otherwise she does very very little dmg)

so the speed or armor or dmg res  or CC resist (one of those)  is essential to make her work!

This is mostly inaccurate aside from the part about the speed.  Fire Ball is Ember's most powerful move, doing decent initial damage and huge damage over time which you can stack and causes flame stagger/panic if enough damage is incurred.  Fireball's initial damage can headshot and the aoe also hits the main target and headshots as well.  Fire Ball deals 2212 damage on average to targets directly struck by the projectile.  This is doubled with a headshot and a headshot incurred with a max strength/efficiency build (max Intensify, rank 2 Blind Rage, max Streamline, Max Fleeting Expertise; 75% efficiency and 57% bonus power strength) will deal 6945 damage on average (over 6 seconds,) and that's not counting the aoe damage caused to neighboring units or Accelerant's damage boost!  With Accelerant on the aforementioned build its total damage to the impact target increases to 27224!  It is probably the strongest 1 skill in the entire game.

 

Your suggested changes to WoF would make it super powerful and require a base damage nerf which would make balancing the skill silly and reduce Ember's burst damage capability.  We don't need another Nova (we don't need any Novas.)

 

For me, fireblast is an extremely situational skill other than against infest. That would be where I would start in making ember more viable.

Perhaps a power that boosts embers speed, leaving a trail of flames? You could achieve the same end as fireblast, but also use it to survive?

Or maybe a more defensive, flame version of turbulence? Ember sets herself alight, giving her a chance to melt incoming projectiles or set melee attackers on fire?

Also, if accelerant was an aura (that still only stunned enemies once mind you) it would be more useful imho. At the moment it's a very expensive stun that only debuffs the enemies in your radius upon casting. I feel that if it had a duration in a radius around ember, stunning enemies upon entering the radius and debuffing them all for the duration, it might have a more effective use.

Accelerant is quite cheap at 12 energy.  One energy orb is enough for Accelerant and two Fire Balls which makes Ember able to cast her abilities in a sustained manner on any map with enough enemies (there's no need for sustainability if there aren't so many enemies anyway and you also have weapons) and Ember has a high energy pool (more with Phoenix helmet) to help mitigate the effect of any energy droughts that may occur.

 

EDIT: Fixed erroneous math in the Fire Ball damage section.

Edited May 1, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Nyxcha]

well actually no

 

accelerant is 50 energy.

if you max its efficiency to 12 energy, you fk the duration of all skills(and thus fk fire blast and world on fire. limiting yourself to JUST fireball)

 

not to mention the fire dmg boost from accelerant will last 6 secounds. which isnt very good for multiple shots.

 

getting a headshot with fireball is pretty hard consider 1. the skill has flight time, and 2. the skill has bullet drop.

 

you are also relying on fire stagger/panic.  but keep in mind it isnt a 100% chance.  in ADDITION to that it isn't a 100% chance that if the proc DOES activate, that it will actually cause them to panic.

 

at high levels most enemys will completely ignore that.

 

if you use a maxed dmg fireball and accelerant, then your energy cost is going to still cost alot.  and you have just given up all your mod slots you could have used to get a bit of hp/shield/speed/ whatever.

in order to be a glass cannon.

 

the moment your touched u down.

 

 

 

also ember is losing that phoenix helmet buff soon....

Edited April 20, 2014 by Arenta

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Although Frankly if you are getting one shotted by Toxic Ancients OP, what the hell are you doing that close? 

I was testing ember's resilience. On a DarkSector survival (not sure if console players have it yet)

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Overall it seems that not only the way ember presently is troubling, but she is extremely difficult to mod. Which can be troublesome for most players. You cant max the damage of her without sacrificing duration. Wheras with other casters you can sacrifice duration (nekros).

[TunaMayo]

This is mostly inaccurate aside from the part about the speed.  Fire Ball is Ember's most powerful move, doing decent initial damage and huge damage over time which you can stack and causes flame stagger/panic if enough damage is incurred.  Fireball's initial damage can headshot and the aoe also hits the main target and headshots as well.  (Fire Ball can deal 1100 initial damage and 3850 damage over the the next 6 seconds for a total of 4950 damage to a single target if it headshots, and that's not counting the damage dealt to other enemies caught in the aoe!)  Your suggested changes to WoF would make it super powerful and require a base damage nerf which would make balancing the skill silly and reduce Ember's burst damage capability.  We don't need another Nova (we don't need any Novas.)

 

Accelerant is quite cheap at 12 energy.  One energy orb is enough for Accelerant and two Fire Balls which makes Ember able to cast her abilities in a sustained manner on any map with enough enemies (there's no need for sustainability if there aren't so many enemies anyway and you also have weapons) and Ember has a high energy pool (more with Phoenix helmet) to help mitigate the effect of any energy droughts that may occur.

It's 12 energy at max efficency which screws your duration on a frame whose powers rely on duration.

By expensive I meant that for 50 energy for a 1 second stun is a bit of a joke.

Even with max efficiency, 12 energy for a 1 second stun is a laughable attempt at giving Ember some utility.

[Hyunsai]

Again, stop spreading false information on Accelerant.

 

It's around 2.5 seconds stun, as we can cast World on Fire (2.2s) just after and enemies are still affected by it at the end of the casting time.

 

Accelerant cost is fine for what it does (2.5 second stun, huge Fire damage buff).

Edited April 20, 2014 by Hyunsai

[RealPandemonium]

I was testing ember's resilience. On a DarkSector survival (not sure if console players have it yet)

No frame can survive a high level Toxic Ancient's cloud for extended periods because it bypasses shields and armor and does 50% more damage to Flesh (which Tenno have under their Alloy armor and regular Shield.)  If the Toxin procs it will almost always kill you since it does so much damage that can't be mitigated aside from healing.  

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

No frame can survive a high level Toxic Ancient's cloud for extended periods because it bypasses shields and armor and does 50% more damage to Flesh (which Tenno have under their Alloy armor and regular Shield.)  If the Toxin procs it will almost always kill you since it does so much damage that can't be mitigated aside from healing.  

I said instanteously, not extended. "You have 700 health, u breeze by a toxic ancient (mid-high level) and you make small contact with the toxic cloud, that's it ur either going down or losing 90% of your health. You can get 1 hit by a level 25 ancient (non shielded)." It's a scenario.

[RealPandemonium]

I said instanteously, not extended. "You have 700 health, u breeze by a toxic ancient (mid-high level) and you make small contact with the toxic cloud, that's it ur either going down or losing 90% of your health. You can get 1 hit by a level 25 ancient (non shielded)." It's a scenario.

Nonetheless, only Saryn, Ash, and Zephyr have an advantage in this situation, and it's not really significant unless they mod for HP.

[BlueSilkMetallic]

just bring back overheat :p

[HansJurgen]

 

 

But as it stands, we all know Ember does fire damage only. And thats the problem.

 

 

Actually that isn't a problem. All warframes are themed on some type of element.

 

This is true for Mag's magnetic attacks, Saryn's poison attacks, Volt's lightning attacks, Frost's cold attacks, Ash's slash attacks, Excal's puncture attacks, et cetera.

[HansJurgen]

Yes but volt has chain lightning, speed (good utility) and electric sheild when paired with a synapse does massive damage.

 

Yes but he has Snow Globe which is a very useful defense cast.

 

No its not a problem, most casters have an ability that is really useful for the team. Whereas ember only does damage, she has no team buffs only self buffs.

 

 

I agree 100%

 

Ember has one debuff, and not a single buff.

 

Comparing Ember with Volt or Frost is apples to oranges. The latter are bullet sponges, and average to weak offensively (compared to Ember).

 

Comparing Ember with Nova and Saryn makes more sense.

 

Nekros is anything but an offensive warframe.

[HansJurgen]

Getting in a situation where you get knocked down or heavily damaged by melee units (like ancients) while playing offensive casters like Ember, Saryn, Nova, you are doing something terribly wrong.

 

Ember maybe needs different polarities, maybe more hp/armor (either not both). With a single forma to adjust her polarities, I have yet to be let down by her. It sits up there next to Nova in terms of sheer devastation and crowd control, and I love it.