Eclipse Goals/policy (As Understood By A Random Member)

[tgipier]

You eclipse members still have the audacity to try to defend your aggressive, expansionist policies and the massive taxation? Ever heard of something called shame? Even ignoring my personal problems with Eclipse, from a purely objective view, a monopoly is terrible, especially with 20% tax. Your best excuse to "open" it ups to players? You will have to do better then that. 

[OniDax]

This is not directed at you btw, but is my general sentiment. The way I see it, Sechura was not about "defending 0% tax", it was about opposing "Eclipse" at any cost. There is a big difference.

If it was done under the "defending 0% tax" principle (which I very much respect on moral and ethical grounds), there would have been absolutely no reason to let WiK fall. But sadly they did. If that is not hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

 

It was specifically about defending Shadows of Vengeance from Eclipse. Wasn't really about 0% tax in general, but specifically about defending Shadows of Vengeance, and keeping Sechura tax free.

[Hadronox]

You eclipse members still have the audacity to try to defend your aggressive, expansionist policies and the massive taxation? Ever heard of something called shame? Even ignoring my personal problems with Eclipse, from a purely objective view, a monopoly is terrible, especially with 20% tax. Your best excuse to "open" it ups to players? You will have to do better then that. 

 

Firstly, no one needs to defend anything. Eclipse did nothing wrong. They are playing the game as it is intended by DE. There are no apologies needed, and no shame or blame. You do not like what they are doing? Go oppose them using the game mechanics available to you.

 

Secondly, there is no monopoly. Again I repeat it. You obviously have no grasp of what that concept means. Eclipse has no monopoly over anything. There is nothing that you can only get by going through their rails. Nothing.

[Squig]

You eclipse members still have the audacity to try to defend your aggressive, expansionist policies and the massive taxation? Ever heard of something called shame? Even ignoring my personal problems with Eclipse, from a purely objective view, a monopoly is terrible, especially with 20% tax. Your best excuse to "open" it ups to players? You will have to do better then that.

"a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior." That's the definition of shame, for me to be ashamed that would imply we did anything wrong. I'm of the mind set we did not. That you feel otherwise is fine but to presume everyone operates with the same view of what is or isn't right is silly.

[Executor_Aeternus]

Then why attack those nodes if you never wanted the rails in the first place?

When Dark Sectors were first implemented, we tried getting various rails with the expectation of only acquiring one or two at most at the start. We were rather surprised to find we had gained far more than we expected. Still, once we had the responsibility to protect them, we tried to uphold our duties as best as we could and keep them open as fast as possible. Just look at our battle history: We opened nodes for over a day before other battles were even finished and did all we could to keep them that way.

 

While you can say you are 'trying to protect' the dark sector node you could have shown it with just one planet first rather than mass expanding into other nodes as well.  Few people I'm sure would have issues if you took just the ceres nodes and left the others alone.

On the very, very few occasions we deployed a rail in a space already taken, we took a node that we deemed both necessary for players and inadequately defended. The fact we took said nodes demonstrates we were correct in our thoughts, particularly when said nodes seemed likely to fail to some other power shortly. Secondarily, in our 1 and likely only attack we'll ever conduct against a 0% tax rail, with the exception of a situation where it seems it may be about to be destroyed*, we only tested the community response to defend a 0% rail. I'm still glad the community managed to be so active in defending a rail, although the community does not have a good track record for doing anything at all to defend such rails. So, our alliance is engaging in a rather spirited debate about whether or not lowering taxes is idealism, or possibly feasible. We'll likely mess with taxes over the coming weeks to see what can be done.

* If a 0% rail is failing, we'll probably have to contact the alliance owning the rail. We could either "Attack" it but do nothing, so it guarantees it stays up (unless some asshats attack it), or take the rail and defend it ourselves until the alliance builds another rail and redeploys their rail there (upon which time we'd let them take it back). Unfortunately, doing the second of these options seems to throw our support unfairly behind a few alliances, and we're aware we seem to be a fairly decent power in the system right now. We don't want to prevent clans from trying out the solar rail system, but we don't want to see everything bogged down in continual battle or taxes set to something stupid, like 75% (which we actually once set on our own members to help donate to battlepay and keep the rails open for you all).

Edited May 1, 2014 by LordGreymantle

[Worira]

You're really rubbish at propaganda.

[tgipier]

Firstly, no one needs to defend anything. Eclipse did nothing wrong. They are playing the game as it is intended by DE. There are no apologies needed, and no shame or blame. You do not like what they are doing? Go oppose them using the game mechanics available to you.

 

Secondly, there is no monopoly. Again I repeat it. You obviously have no grasp of what that concept means. Eclipse has no monopoly over anything. There is nothing that you can only get by going through their rails. Nothing.

No shame for being aggressive or taking over territories. But having a terrible excuse for it is. If you want good PR, at least try. Instead of using just poor reason for it. . I mean, seriously, if you want do PR, do a good job at it. A poor PR is worse then no PR. 

Ofcourse there is, providing if Eclipse hold over the majority of territories or even all. 

In short, bad PR is just worse then no PR. Dont bother if you are not even gonna try, 

Edited May 1, 2014 by tgipier

[fatpig84]

I know you are being sarcastic, but a principle is a principle.

 

People keep claiming they are fighting to defend 0% taxes, and yet no one came to defend Wik (who had 0% tax), against MotherRussia (who are sporting a 15% tax). You either stand for something all the time, or you don't.

 

I don't believe there is a faction who actually cares about 0% tax rate.

They are only anti-eclipse or pro-eclipse.

 

Look these guys supported SOV on Sechura.

And they use a 200k credit game and only set it for 7 games for their own defence on Gabil.

 

But of course, they must be right because Eclipse must lose at any cause !

Remember Eclipse is the biggest evil ever since Warbros mang !

No price too big for victory ya know !!

 

Also I know someone will yap why Eclipse has only 20k for 152 games.

So I will leave this link here, you can further see Eclipse increased it to 40k for 700+ games.

 

http://deathsnacks.com/wf/bl_history.html#5348d1e007c56fc79b7b23c9_1398736764

 

 

Edited May 1, 2014 by fatpig84

[stax496]

Here is a little suggestion which meets all your objectives. offer 0% tax and no battlepay.
 

(1) I don't mind waiting 12 hours until dark sector is open for a few days because I can play other games and come back to farming at a NON TAXED RATE, I won't support the conflict despite battlepay being ridiculously high because it's not fun.
(2) I don't want your protection of the nodes because a 25% tax is not what I want despite getting 100% of resources earnt, If you used the 0% tax then ouyou can easily pay the repair costs yourselves and not need to offer battlepay (look at shadows of vengeance on pluto).
(3) I'm not even remoted interested in battlepay or supporting conflicts since im happy to wait.
(4) If even one clan has a rail at 0% tax then it just comes to show that people are willing to support that and can maintain upkeep themselves, If they can do it so can you (that is if you have enough public support). Even if you give it a try on all your nodes and lose them all then at least you prove that your stance on the situation was right all along and that you actually have the public's interest in mind. Personally I don't mind waiting for a full 12 hours anyways. tax is unacceptable at any level above 1% on credits alone.

If you are really interesting in proving yourselves then show us a income statement and balancesheet accompanied by screenshots to prove those numbers are genuine or implement the suggestion i have made.

[tgipier]

Here is a little suggestion which meets all your objectives. offer 0% tax and no battlepay.

 

(1) I don't mind waiting 12 hours until dark sector is open for a few days because I can play other games and come back to farming at a NON TAXED RATE, I won't support the conflict despite battlepay being ridiculously high because it's not fun.

(2) I don't want your protection of the nodes because a 25% tax is not what I want despite getting 100% of resources earnt, If you used the 0% tax then ouyou can easily pay the repair costs yourselves and not need to offer battlepay (look at shadows of vengeance on pluto).

(3) I'm not even remoted interested in battlepay or supporting conflicts since im happy to wait.

(4) If even one clan has a rail at 0% tax then it just comes to show that people are willing to support that and can maintain upkeep themselves, If they can do it so can you (that is if you have enough public support). Even if you give it a try on all your nodes and lose them all then at least you prove that your stance on the situation was right all along and that you actually have the public's interest in mind. Personally I don't mind waiting for a full 12 hours anyways. tax is unacceptable at any level above 1% on credits alone.

If you are really interesting in proving yourselves then show us a income statement and balancesheet accompanied by screenshots to prove those numbers are genuine or implement the suggestion i have made.

 

That. To convince not to dislike Eclipse objectively from a normal player perspective, I want an entire balance book of all eclipse balance sheet. Since so called reason was to protect the nodes and taxation is used for repair the node, thus, the net income should be zero or less right? Something tell me it is not. Maybe Eclipse net earning should be measured in billions or trillions now. 

[Squig]

Here is a little suggestion which meets all your objectives. offer 0% tax and no battlepay.

 

(1) I don't mind waiting 12 hours until dark sector is open for a few days because I can play other games and come back to farming at a NON TAXED RATE, I won't support the conflict despite battlepay being ridiculously high because it's not fun.

(2) I don't want your protection of the nodes because a 25% tax is not what I want despite getting 100% of resources earnt, If you used the 0% tax then ouyou can easily pay the repair costs yourselves and not need to offer battlepay (look at shadows of vengeance on pluto).

(3) I'm not even remoted interested in battlepay or supporting conflicts since im happy to wait.

(4) If even one clan has a rail at 0% tax then it just comes to show that people are willing to support that and can maintain upkeep themselves, If they can do it so can you (that is if you have enough public support). Even if you give it a try on all your nodes and lose them all then at least you prove that your stance on the situation was right all along and that you actually have the public's interest in mind. Personally I don't mind waiting for a full 12 hours anyways. tax is unacceptable at any level above 1% on credits alone.

If you are really interesting in proving yourselves then show us a income statement and balancesheet accompanied by screenshots to prove those numbers are genuine or implement the suggestion i have made.

Your suggestions are legitimately the worst I've seen. The -only- reason people jumped to the defense of Pluto is because it was -convenient- for them. It wasn't about fighting taxes so much as it was about their greed, why do you think they didn't help WIK on Venus. 

 

 

That. To convince not to dislike Eclipse objectively from a normal player perspective, I want an entire balance book of all eclipse balance sheet. Since so called reason was to protect the nodes and taxation is used for repair the node, thus, the net income should be zero or less right? Something tell me it is not. Maybe Eclipse net earning should be measured in billions or trillions now. 

Money doesn't work how you think it does. We've spent -billions- on repairs and battlepay. Nor are your beliefs on our net income anywhere in the real world. I -wish- we were scrooge mc. ducking, but the real reality is you're talking out of your backside. 

Edited May 1, 2014 by Squig

[stax496]

Although i genuinely do not know whether my suggestions are any good or not, we need some ideas on how to reach a unanimous decision on whether to either support a 0% tax, set a consistent universal tax, or just to slug it out (which i don't like since it wastes everyones time effort and resources)

[tgipier]

Your suggestions are legitimately the worst I've seen. The -only- reason people jumped to the defense of Pluto is because it was -convenient- for them. It wasn't about fighting taxes so much as it was about their greed, why do you think they didn't help WIK on Venus. 

 

 

Money doesn't work how you think it does. We've spent -billions- on repairs and battlepay. Nor are your beliefs on our net income anywhere in the real world. I -wish- we were scrooge mc. ducking, but the real reality is you're talking out of your backside.

Oh I see. Surely since you are talking so confidently, you must know exactly much you spended and made. Would you kindly provide some proof to enlighten me from my ignorance? /sarcasm.

[Executor_Aeternus]

Here is a little suggestion which meets all your objectives. offer 0% tax and no battlepay.

I wish that were a reasonable possibility, but to do so allows other alliances or clans to come in on nodes players need and to tax unnecessary rates. We're now finding just and reasonable rates, slowly adjusting as we settle in and find out a good rate. Requiring 0% doesn't allow us to defend the rails well, ending up with constant conflict and significant economic difficulty on our part to maintain it. It also means we abandon the rail construction cost, and all the Tenno of the system that want a fair and open node. Even if you feel differently, we can't abandon those people and we'll fight the good fight to protect them.

 

(1) I don't mind waiting 12 hours until dark sector is open for a few days

I doubt much of the playerbase agrees, particularly folks with tighter schedules or lower levels who find themselves unable to get the credits, materials or experience they were counting on in the time they have.

 

(2) not need to offer battlepay (look at shadows of vengeance on pluto).

An alliance that lost almost every node it owned and primarily won since we:

1. Didn't actually want the node and wanted to see community response

2. Apparently the community actually wasn't defending them, but most people claim they merely wanted to "stop us". Sadly, that means we probably can't lower taxes if the only reason you guys defended a just and generous, self-sacrificing alliance was some foolish misplaced animosity towards us.

 

(4)give it a try on all your nodes and lose them all

No thanks.

 

If you are really interesting in proving yourselves then show us a income statement and balancesheet accompanied by screenshots to prove those numbers are genuine or implement the suggestion i have made.

The game doesn't give us balance sheets, although you can see our history on deathsnacks where we have behaved honorably and defended the community's right to timely access on nodes. It's a growing new feature to the game, but we promise you all we'll do our very best to find fair and just solutions for taxation, among other issues.

Edited May 1, 2014 by LordGreymantle

[PsiWarp]

I would totally support a 1 week period where another Solar Rail cannot be deployed by the previous occupant/failed attacker on the same Dark Sector. Put some variety in what clan/alliance occupies a node, man.

[syle]

bullS#&$ post

dmg control isn't working here

community already knows what's up with eclipse and handful of the eclipse members already posted they they are very happy that they are considered to be the scumbag alliances

atm only ppl that will run for eclipse are the ones that want the credits or don't follow the forums

everyone else already knows its the same story as warbros#1 and just like them you will fade away  

[Squig]

Oh I see. Surely since you are talking so confidently, you must know exactly much you spended and made. Would you kindly provide some proof to enlighten me from my ignorance? /sarcasm.

Okay let me lay some basic maths on you to how much it costs to hold a dark sector, I won't even include the repair costs for kicks. For just -one- rail at a modest 10k battlepay for 7500 tickets (The amount of individual player runs it takes to blow a rail up.) it will cost 75 MILLION credits. Now, consider this, most of the rails we're defending probably don't even offer that much in pay on a normal non sabotage run, but we still have to offer a competitive battlepay or people won't run. Long story short you're blowing smoke out your -redacted- and pretending you know how much it costs to hold a rail.

 

 

bullS#&$ post

dmg control isn't working here

community already knows what's up with eclipse and handful of the eclipse members already posted they they are very happy that they are considered to be the scumbag alliances

atm only ppl that will run for eclipse are the ones that want the credits or don't follow the forums

everyone else already knows its the same story as warbros#1 and just like them you will fade away  

We're nothing like warbros. Keep parroting it all you want it won't make it true.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Squig

[OniDax]

I wish that were a reasonable possibility, but to do so allows other alliances or clans to come in on nodes players need and to tax unnecessary rates. We're now finding just and reasonable rates, slowly adjusting as we settle in and find out a good rate. Requiring 0% doesn't allow us to defend the rails well, ending up with constant conflict and significant economic difficulty on our part to maintain it. It also means we abandon the rail construction cost, and all the Tenno of the system that want a fair and open node. Even if you feel differently, we can't abandon those people and we'll fight the good fight to protect them.

 

I doubt much of the playerbase agrees, particularly folks with tighter schedules or lower levels who find themselves unable to get the credits, materials or experience they were counting on in the time they have.

 

An alliance that lost almost every node it owned and primarily won since we:

1. Didn't actually want the node and wanted to see community response

2. Apparently the community actually wasn't defending them, but most people claim they merely wanted to "stop us". Sadly, that means we probably can't lower taxes if the only reason you guys defended a just and generous, self-sacrificing alliance was some foolish misplaced animosity towards us.

 

No thanks.

 

The game doesn't give us balance sheets, although you can see our history on deathsnacks where we have behaved honorably and defended the community's right to timely access on nodes. It's a growing new feature to the game, but we promise you all we'll do our very best to find fair and just solutions for taxation, among other issues.

 

Just understand that there are a lot of people who don't consider 25% tax fair and just. But you really aren't in a position to be making a promise on behalf of the rest of Eclipse, are you?

[Worira]

 

Okay let me lay some basic maths on you to how much it costs to hold a dark sector, I won't even include the repair costs for kicks.

 

And by "for kicks" you mean "because they're utterly trivial", right?

[Loswaith]

When Dark Sectors were first implemented, we tried getting various rails with the expectation of only acquiring one or two at most at the start. We were rather surprised to find we had gained far more than we expected. Still, once we had the responsibility to protect them, we tried to uphold our duties as best as we could and keep them open as fast as possible. Just look at our battle history: We opened nodes for over a day before other battles were even finished and did all we could to keep them that way. ...

To even think that the first to deploy on a position wouldnt get a free pass to owning it is completly naive. Everything DE told us about them meant that was going to be the case. So excuse the majority for actually thinking that a good chunk of your aliance didnt know that from the outset. Even then you would have known after deploying the very first rail and it starting it's deployment.

...

On the very, very few occasions we deployed a rail in a space already taken, we took a node that we deemed both necessary for players and inadequately defended. The fact we took said nodes demonstrates we were correct in our thoughts, particularly when said nodes seemed likely to fail to some other power shortly. ...

Again Eclipse deemed it inadequetly defended using their own levels of judgement (IE. what you could conqure). Had you assisted the defender against someone else (something Eclipse can do becuse of numbers) rather than attack them it would have achieved the same result as you say you wanted without you 'needing' to conqure it yourself (even at no expence to Eclipse as well), yet left it in the hands of another alliance/clan. Instead you thrusted it into another conflict for the purpose to takae it over yourselves, thus not protecting it at all but conquering it this achiving the counter result you say you were trying to do.

What does it matter which other faction owns it, there is little cost to contesting a node and it will always be done, even if the contender has little chance of succeeding.

Keep in mind here Eclipse assulted Sechura that had proven they could defend (SoV won every battle before Eclipse's assult), making your argument moot.

You could have done your test, without being any party to it (otherwise a conflict of interest taints the results), that is how you do accurate tests, by being an objective observer to the situation.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Loswaith

[Squig]

And by "for kicks" you mean "because they're utterly trivial", right?

No because I'm trying to make a point that battle pay is one of those "Operational costs" just like employees in a real life business are part of the cost of running it.

[tgipier]

Okay let me lay some basic maths on you to how much it costs to hold a dark sector, I won't even include the repair costs for kicks. For just -one- rail at a modest 10k battlepay for 7500 tickets (The amount of individual player runs it takes to blow a rail up.) it will cost 75 MILLION credits. Now, consider this, most of the rails we're defending probably don't even offer that much in pay on a normal non sabotage run, but we still have to offer a competitive battlepay or people won't run. Long story short you're blowing smoke out your -redacted- and pretending you know how much it costs to hold a rail.

 

 

We're nothing like warbros. Keep parroting it all you want it won't make it true.

Remind me, how many people run the popular mat farming dark sector eciplse so happen to hold. You only speak of expenses, never speak of income.

[stax496]

(1) Well the dark sectors would be open for 6 times longer than they would be down, that means dark sectors would be open 85.71% of the time (to 2 dp). your arguement of players with less time is invalid.
(2) that's a shame, would be nice if it was financially viable
(4) Well then figure something out with the community!!! Let us speak with your leader or something and get to the bottom of this.

your arguement on time is invalid and what deathsnack's doesnt show us is how much players have used which of ur nodes with what rates, Therefore it only shows your rail upkeep expense as a % and battle pay wages expense as a number. Your rail tax income isn't shown nor who earns your battlepay.

[Squig]

(1) Well the dark sectors would be open for 6 times longer than they would be down, that means dark sectors would be open 85.71% of the time (to 2 dp). your arguement of players with less time is invalid.

(2) that's a shame, would be nice if it was financially viable

(4) Well then figure something out with the community!!! Let us speak with your leader or something and get to the bottom of this.

your arguement on time is invalid and what deathsnack's doesnt show us is how much players have used which of ur nodes with what rates, Therefore it only shows your rail upkeep expense as a % and battle pay wages expense as a number. Your rail tax income isn't shown nor who earns your battlepay.

We would -love- to be able to check that for ourselves. But since you seem to be unaware dark sectors are in a -very- alpha-ish implementation meaning there are no tools to see how much we get from what income wise.

[fatpig84]

Remind me, how many people run the popular mat farming dark sector eciplse so happen to hold. You only speak of expenses, never speak of income.

But do they steal your orokin cells ? D: