Eliminating False Choices: A Proposed Alteration To Weapons And Mods

[Ashnal]

 

 

Yes somewhat, although it wasn't so much a "i'm more skilled" story as just what happens in game. I'm aware many people want to milk the absolute hell out of their weapons, and if going by "must milk everything out of damage" then yes MS will help. Personally, I can do a video for a T3 Survival that my Penta or my Latron build doesn't require MS to go long time

 

Yeah, you'll be able to go for a little while with no MS on that specific marelok build you posted.

My question is to you though is, if you were able to do more damage per shot would you be able to go for even longer? 

Even headshots start to become ineffective on those heavy gunners when you get to 50 minutes.

 

Compare your marelok build: http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Marelok/t_30_22230000_204-1-10-205-4-3-206-0-5-209-7-5-211-2-5-212-6-3-215-3-5-263-5-3_206-6-204-7-211-5-215-8-205-9-263-7-212-7-209-11/en/3-0-41/

To my revised one: http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Marelok/t_30_22230000_204-1-10-205-4-3-206-0-5-209-7-5-211-2-5-212-6-3-215-3-5-263-5-3_206-6-204-7-211-5-215-8-205-9-263-7-212-7-209-11/en/3-0-41/0

Make sure you tick off the crit and multishot checkboxes when viewing the numbers. By adding multishot you get in increase in all types of damage, AND status chance per shot, since each bullet has its own chance to status. You'll go from shooting 2 bullets 60% of the time to shooting 3 bullets 80% of the time.

 

At some point in high level endless mission you'll want more damage to keep up with enemies scaling health. As it is, the only reason to keep your current build is because you can't fit multishot unless you add another forma.

 

Another thing. You say MS is a luxury % chance to shoot another bullet, and that is why you don't use it. However you use crit mods on your marelok, which has a very similar effect to MS. Crit is a % chance to raise the damage per bullet by a certain amount. Hy is this a mechanic you make use of, but not Multishot, when they function almost the same exact way numerically? Honestly I'm beginning to think you don't understand math :(

Edited May 17, 2014 by Ashnal

[rapt0rman]

It is essentially firing two shots, it's not double the damage. You don't fire two shots and add the damage together do you?

What you're saying is still fundamentally flawed for the exact reasons in my post that you quoted.

[VDeorsum]

 

I've since changed my build to use Gunslinger instead of Lethal Torrent. The MS mods are not a false choice, they are a luxury option. It is NOT dealing double damage. A very simple explanation of double damage, in one shot you deal 2k, you fire again, in one shot you deal 4k. That is double damage. Firing once, getting MS, 2k each. That is not double damage

 

 

 

But is double the damage that the enemy receive. From where it comes from doesn't import ( from 1 or 2 bullets) you deal more damage, better that all elemental mod can do (MS increase the elem. damage to). Unnecessary? Luxury? maybe for easy content. For hight content these mods are a must have ( if you make headshot, with this you can kill more power enemy and with less ammo)

[RespectTheInternet]

Except I pointed out you are not "literally dealing double damage"

 

They still don't receive double the damage, they receive (assuming you hit) one shot, then another, as though you shot twice. That is not double the damage. MS is not a must-have for high content, it is still only a luxury. It's easy to go to high content and do very well without it.

 

 

 

It is essentially firing two shots, it's not double the damage. You don't fire two shots and add the damage together do you?

 

So, if an enemy has 3000 health, and your gun does 1500 damage, shooting him twice wont kill him.

 

[Isycius_Ievel]

Well. Multishot and Flatout damage increase does different thing, how about this for the change?

 

For example for rifle.

 

Rotate out Serration, Heavy Caliber, and Split Chamber into Stance-like slot, and buff the Split Chamber slightly.

 

Making user to either pick Serration / Heavy Caliber (More damage) or Split Chamber (More hit count, Higher Critical, and Proc chance, but worse against armor.) While doing that, make Rifle Aptitude more useful by buffing them a lot and making into this sudo stance, giving the user choice of getting extremely high proc chance over any damage.

 

Obviously, this can't be done on melee because they already have stance, and probably don't need another one. (And only pressure point is auto include mod there anyway.)

 

If this is goes exactly as I hoped, this will increase the variety between weapon build. At worst?... Well, it won't do anything except making weapons overall weaker.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Isycius_Ievel

[rapt0rman]

Here's the thing of it:

You don't fire two shots and add the damage together do you?

People do pretty much do this, It's called damage per second or DPS (the damage you deal during an amount of time, added together, and then divided by that time in seconds), and it's how most people get a good idea of how efficient their weapon is. If you get really detailed, you can find a weapon's sustainable DPS by taking into account their ammo efficiency: fire rate, clip size, reload speed, and max ammunition, all of which multishot bypasses by having the extra bullets MAGICALLY MATERIALIZE OUT OF THIN AIR THE MOMENT YOU PULL THE TRIGGER.

 

Leaving DPS aside and just looking at ammo efficiency:

 

Lets say you only have 4 quarters (bullets) in your hand (clip/max ammo) and every time you spend a quarter it magically multiplies into two quarters (multishot, lets pretend it's 100% and not 90% for the sake of this problem). Now, you have something that you want to buy for 50 cents (enemy HP). How many of the original quarters in your hand did you have to spend to get your item? How many potential quarters do you have left over compared to if you didn't have a magical quarter splitter?

 

Now lets add time into it:

 

There is a 4 dollar item that has a limited stock of 12, and it's selling out at a rate of 1 per second (I guess you could think of this as an oxium osprey rushing towards you, and you want to kill it before it hits something and self-destructs). You have 8 magic splitting quarters with you (4 in your pocket) (max ammo), but you can still only have 4 in your hand (clip size), it takes you 1 second to hand a single quarter to the store clerk (fire rate), and it takes you 2 seconds to draw another 4 quarters (reload speed). Will you make it in time to buy one of the items? Would you still make it in time with out the quarter splitter?

 

Obviously the game isn't as cut and dried as my examples, and in the end I don't care if you continue to not use multishot, but to claim that it isn't exponentially a bigger damage per shot, damage per second, and ammo efficiency increase then nearly every other mod available is just flat out false.

Edited May 17, 2014 by rapt0rman

[castem]

I would like to say a couple things; hopefully they should clear up my position and some of the terminology I use.

 

First, I'd like to start by defining a couple terms I'll be using and my reason for my original post:

Round:  the single piece of ammunition fired at the enemy.  For guns, rounds would be bullets; for shotguns, rounds would be pellets; for bows, rounds would be arrows, and so on.

Shot:  a single shot of a weapon.  A shot usually fires (and consumes) 1 round of ammunition.  [This is not always the case, though.  For example, shotguns fire many rounds (pellets) per shot.]

 

It should be noted that Multishot gives a chance to increase the number of rounds fired per shot.

 

My reason for this post was not to give suggestions for how to change the multishot mechanic or +damage mods themselves (such as giving detrimental effects to multishot or lowering the % of damage or multishot), but to suggest an alternate way they could be implemented (innate bonuses on the weapon as it levels up, versus the current method of attaching them to mods).  My reasoning for choosing this method was to eliminate mods that acted as false-choices.

 

Secondly, I'd like to state a simple argument and then an opinion I have:

Premise 1:  No reasonable person would choose the worst option in a false choice.  (Taken from my original post.)

Premise 2:  Unreasonable people aren't subject to the above premise.  (Follows from the above premise, due to the fact that unreasonable people are not reasonable people.)

Conclusion 1:  Some unreasonable people may choose the worst option in a false choice.  (Follows from the above premises.)

Conclusion 2:  People who choose the worst option in a false choice are unreasonable.  (Follows from Premise 1 and Conclusion 1.)

 

I personally hold the opinion that it is not worth trying to persuade or argue with unreasonable people.

 

I bring up this argument and my opinion because of 2 reasons:  1) it should be noted that some people will choose the worst option in a false choice, and 2) some people tend to spend a lot of time trying to persuade unreasonable people, which I personally do not believe is an effective use of their time.

 

Thirdly, I'd like to discuss the difference between a literal increase and an effective increase:

A literal increase is a direct, numerical increase in a value.

An effective increase is an indirect yet practical increase in a value.

 

Example:  Vitality (+health) & Steel Fiber (+armor) mods

If you put a Vitality mod a warframe, its health will be directly increased - in other words, Vitality provides a literal increase to a waframe's health.

If you put a Steel Fiber mod a warframe, its effective health will be increased - in other words, the numerical value of its health won't increase (it'll remain the same), but since increased armor decreases the damage taken to health, the warframe will effectively have more health (it will be able to take more health damage before it goes down).  (In short:  Steel Fiber provides an effective increase to a warframe's health.)

 

Fourthly, I'd like to discuss the difference between what Multishot literally does and what Multishot effectively does:

      What Multishot Literally Does

Multishot gives a chance to increase the number of rounds fired per shot.  [With some weapon types, this is a guaranteed chance.]

(It is important to note that an additional rounds due to Multishot comes at no increase to ammo consumption, recoil, or accuracy loss.)

 

     What Multishot Effectively Does

Multishot effectively increases several aspects of a weapon, as listed below:

 

1.  +damage-per-shot

This role was probably the one people think of immediately, but it is also the one that is hardest to grasp in its entirety.  Multishot does not literally increase your damage, it gives you a chance (in some cases, a guaranteed chance) to shoot an additional round (or rounds) per shot (depending on the weapon type).  This does not increase damage-per-hit (the damage of each round), but it does increase damage-per-shot (since more rounds are fired per shot); this leads to more damage-per-second, which ultimately leads to more overall damage.  Multishot manages to do this without any additional ammo consumption, increased recoil, or decreased accuracy, so this effective increase in damage is not hindered by such negative effects (which you may encounter using by using certain Corrupted mods or +fire-rate mods).

(Note that I do not consider Multishot a +fire-rate mod, since it does not increase the recoil or ammo consumption of a weapon.)

 

2.  +magazine size*

This one is fairly easy to understand.  Since each shot has a chance to shoot more than one round, each magazine has effectively more rounds in it.  An effective increase in the number of rounds per magazine is an effective increase in magazine size.

 

*Will affect weapons such as bows, which is - in this case - far superior to mods that attempt to literally increase magazine size.

 

3.  +status chance

Since each round has a chance to proc, more procs will occur if Multishot is installed.  To examine why, let's look at an example:

Say you have a weapon that has a 50% status chance.  Each round of that weapon will have a 50% chance to proc.  If you fire 100 shots with that weapon without Multishot installed,  50 rounds will proc and 50 rounds will not.  If you fire 100 shots with that weapon with Multishot (at 100%) installed, 100 rounds will proc and 100 rounds will not.

Although there is not a literal increase in status chance, there is an effective increase in status chance - that is, more status procs occur for a certain number of shots with Multishot compared to without Multishot.

 

Note:  If you require further information on Multishot (the mechanic) itself, please read its article on the wiki:  http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Multishot_(Mechanic)

 

Lastly, I'd like to discuss the difference between what Multishot effectively increases and mods that also fulfill those roles:

So multishot effectively increases damage-per-shot, magazine size, and status chance. Are there any mods that perform better than multishot their respective areas, and if there are, do they perform better than multishot in all its effective areas?

Note:  for the following examples and math, I will only be looking at Rifles.  Since their multishot chance is the lowest (+90%), it means that the effects of multishot will be even better on secondaries and shotguns (who have means to a higher multishot chance).  (So in a sense, a Rifle's multishot is a 'worst case scenario' for scenarios involving multishot.)

 

Damage-per-shot:

Split Chamber:  +90% multishot, 15 mod points, 1 mod slot

Serration:  +165% base damage, 14 mod points, 1 mod slot

Heavy Caliber:  +165% base damage, -55% accuracy, 16 mod points, 1 mod slot

 

Example:

Let's say there's a weapon with the following base stats: 10 damage per round, 1 round per shot.

With only Split Chamber:  10 damage per round, 1 round per shot with a 90% chance of an additional round, therefore there is on average about 19 damage per shot (this is not a literal damage amount, but an effect damage amount).

With only Serration:  26.5 damage per round, 1 shot per round, therefore 26.5 damage per shot.

 

It seems Serration is the winner here; however, Serration doesn't seem to be entirely better, seeing as how Split Chamber (mulishot) also adds utility from an effective increase in magazine size and status chance.

 

I do not significantly consider Heavy Caliber into the equation, as it is a strictly worse version of Serration (both in accuracy and in mod points).  The only reasons to consider it are for weapons that benefit from decreased accuracy or if you have some kind of personal vendetta against multishot.  Otherwise, Serration and Split Chamber offer literal and effective increases that are hard to beat, especially since both of them can be combined on a level 30 weapon, irregardless of any polarities (or lack thereof) or it being supercharged (potato'd).

 

Magazine size:  

Split Chamber:  +90% multishot, 15 mod points, 1 mod slot

Magazine Warp:  +30% magazine capacity, 9 mod points, 1 mod slot

Tainted Mag:  +66% magazine capacity, -33% reload speed, 13 mod points, 1 mod slot

Wildfire:  +20% magazine capacity, +60% fire damage, 9 mod points, 1 mod slot

 

So if solely put on a weapon with a magazine size of 100, they will have a magazine size of:

Split Chamber:  190 (effective)

Magazine Warp:  130 (literal)

Tainted Mag:  166 (literal)

Wildfire:  120 (literal)

 

The only mod that comes close to the value added to the weapon here is Tainted Mag, but that also comes at a hefty 13 mod points (only 2 less than Split Chamber) and -33% reload speed (which Split Chamber doesn't have to deal with).  Magazine Warp costs less, true, but you get what you pay for.  Wildfire is still useful, but only for its fire damage; in terms of magazine size, Split Chamber beats it by a mile, not to mention the other effective increases that Split Chamber offers.

 

Status chance:  

Split Chamber:  +90% multishot, 15 mod points, 1 mod slot

Hammer Shot:  +60% crit damage, +40% status chance, 9 mod points, 1 mod slot

High Voltage:  +60% electrical damage, +60% status chance, 7 mod points, 1 mod slot

Malignant Force:  +60% poison damage, +60% status chance, 7 mod points, 1 mod slot

Rifle Aptitude:  +15% status chance, 9 mod points, 1 mod slot

 

So if we consider weapons with 5% | 10% | 20% | 40% status chance per round, and they fire 100 shots....

Split Chamber:  9.5% | 19% | 38% | 76% status chance per shot, leading to 9-10 | 19 | 38 | 76 procs in 100 shots.

Hammer Shot:  7% | 14% | 28% | 56% status chance per shot, leading to 7 | 14 | 28 | 56 procs in 100 shots.

High Voltage:  8% | 16% | 32% | 64% status chance per shot, leading to 8 | 16 | 32 | 64 procs in 100 shots.

Malignant Force:  8% | 16% | 32% | 64% status chance per shot, leading to 8 | 16 | 32 | 64 procs in 100 shots.

Rifle Aptitude:  5.75% | 11.5% | 23% | 46% status chance per shot, leading to 5-6 | 11-2 | 23 | 46 procs in 100 shots.

 

Math for Split Chamber:

Each round has a chance to proc.  With multishot, each shot has a 90% chance to have an additional round.

100 shots + 90% multishot = effectively 190 rounds

effectively 190 rounds * status chance = Split Chamber status chance

190 * 0.05 = 9.5

190 * 0.10 = 19

190 * 0.20 = 38

190 * 0.40 = 76

 

In terms of +status chance alone, Multishot wins out for only 1 mod slot, but two other mods could be combined to give a higher +status chance (such as High Voltage and Malignant Force) for a similar number of mod points.  The elemental (or crit) damage is a plus, too, so if status chance is highly desirable, then these other mods are viable alternatives for it.  However, when it comes to damage-per-shot and its other areas, multishot still wins out (and is well worth the mod points in that regard).

 

So again, my questions:

Are there any mods that perform better than multishot their respective areas?

Damage-per-shot:  Serration

Magazine Size:  no

Status chance:  no (unless multiple +status chance mods are combined; in which case, yes)

 

If there are, do they perform better than multishot in all its effective areas?

Damage-per-shot:  no

Magazine Size:  no

Status chance:  no

 

One last reminder:  this is for Rifles, who have the lowest multishot chance (+90%).  Shotguns (+120%) and Secondaries (+180%) can fare even better in regards to effective increases provided by multishot.

 

What makes Multishot so significant is that it has its effective increases of +damage-per-shot, +magazine size, and +status chance in a single package, which blows a lot of other mods out of the water.  Even for its expense, it offers phenomenal value; in addition to effectively increasing three different things, it also stacks with almost everything else weapon-related.  More damage?  Multishot makes it better.  Bigger magazine size?  Multishot increases its effective capacity.  More elemental damage?  Multishot makes it better, and effectively increases proc chance as well.  More fire rate?  Multishot loves spitting out additional rounds at a faster rate too.

 

And multishot does all this with no downside other than its rather expensive mod cost.  No additional recoil, no loss in accuracy, no increased ammo consumption.  Given that any max-ranked weapon can have multishot and their main +damage mod on it at the same time, even without a potato or any polarities, players start having to grasp at straws to find a reason not to use it.  I do not think any reasonable person would go without multishot on a serious weapon build, and as such, I view multishot mods as false-choice mods.

Edited May 18, 2014 by castem

[RespectTheInternet]

snip

 

 

 you should probably edit that into your OP as an addendum regarding Multishot.

[castem]

 you should probably edit that into your OP as an addendum regarding Multishot.

 

Fair point.  I'll do so right away.

[RealPandemonium]

 

I would like to say a couple things; hopefully they should clear up my position and some of the terminology I use.

 

First, I'd like to start by defining a couple terms I'll be using and my reason for my original post:

Round:  the single piece of ammunition fired at the enemy.  For guns, rounds would be bullets; for shotguns, rounds would be pellets; for bows, rounds would be arrows, and so on.

Shot:  a single shot of a weapon.  A shot usually fires (and consumes) 1 round of ammunition.  [This is not always the case, though.  For example, shotguns fire many rounds (pellets) per shot.]

 

It should be noted that Multishot gives a chance to increase the number of rounds fired per shot.

 

My reason for this post was not to give suggestions for how to change the multishot mechanic or +damage mods themselves (such as giving detrimental effects to multishot or lowering the % of damage or multishot), but to suggest an alternate way they could be implemented (innate bonuses on the weapon as it levels up, versus the current method of attaching them to mods).  My reasoning for choosing this method was to eliminate mods that acted as false-choices.

 

Secondly, I'd like to state a simple argument and then an opinion I have:

Premise 1:  No reasonable person would choose the worst option in a false choice.  (Taken from my original post.)

Premise 2:  Unreasonable people aren't subject to the above premise.  (Follows from the above premise, due to the fact that unreasonable people are not reasonable people.)

Conclusion 1:  Some unreasonable people may choose the worst option in a false choice.  (Follows from the above premises.)

Conclusion 2:  People who choose the worst option in a false choice are unreasonable.  (Follows from Premise 1 and Conclusion 1.)

 

I personally hold the opinion that it is not worth trying to persuade or argue with unreasonable people.

 

I bring up this argument and my opinion because of 2 reasons:  1) it should be noted that some people will choose the worst option in a false choice, and 2) some people tend to spend a lot of time trying to persuade unreasonable people, which I personally do not believe is an effective use of their time.

 

Thirdly, I'd like to discuss the difference between a literal increase and an effective increase:

A literal increase is a direct, numerical increase in a value.

An effective increase is an indirect yet practical increase in a value.

 

Example:  Vitality (+health) & Steel Fiber (+armor) mods

If you put a Vitality mod a warframe, its health will be directly increased - in other words, Vitality provides a literal increase to a waframe's health.

If you put a Steel Fiber mod a warframe, its effective health will be increased - in other words, the numerical value of its health won't increase (it'll remain the same), but since increased armor decreases the damage taken to health, the warframe will effectively have more health (it will be able to take more health damage before it goes down).  (In short:  Steel Fiber provides an effective increase to a warframe's health.)

 

Fourthly, I'd like to discuss the difference between what Multishot literally does and what Multishot effectively does:

      What Multishot Literally Does

Multishot gives a chance to increase the number of rounds fired per shot.  [With some weapon types, this is a guaranteed chance.]

(It is important to note that an additional rounds due to Multishot comes at no increase to ammo consumption, recoil, or accuracy loss.)

 

     What Multishot Effectively Does

Multishot effectively increases several aspects of a weapon, as listed below:

 

1.  +damage-per-shot

This role was probably the one people think of immediately, but it is also the one that is hardest to grasp in its entirety.  Multishot does not literally increase your damage, it gives you a chance (in some cases, a guaranteed chance) to shoot an additional round (or rounds) per shot (depending on the weapon type).  This does not increase damage-per-hit (the damage of each round), but it does increase damage-per-shot (since more rounds are fired per shot); this leads to more damage-per-second, which ultimately leads to more overall damage.  Multishot manages to do this without any additional ammo consumption, increased recoil, or decreased accuracy, so this effective increase in damage is not hindered by such negative effects (which you may encounter using by using certain Corrupted mods or +fire-rate mods).

(Note that I do not consider Multishot a +fire-rate mod, since it does not increase the recoil or ammo consumption of a weapon.)

 

2.  +magazine size*

This one is fairly easy to understand.  Since each shot has a chance to shoot more than one round, each magazine has effectively more rounds in it.  An effective increase in the number of rounds per magazine is an effective increase in magazine size.

 

*Will affect weapons such as bows, which is - in this case - far superior to mods that attempt to literally increase magazine size.

 

3.  +status chance

Since each round has a chance to proc, more procs will occur if Multishot is installed.  To examine why, let's look at an example:

Say you have a weapon that has a 50% status chance.  Each round of that weapon will have a 50% chance to proc.  If you fire 100 shots with that weapon without Multishot installed,  50 rounds will proc and 50 rounds will not.  If you fire 100 shots with that weapon with Multishot (at 100%) installed, 100 rounds will proc and 100 rounds will not.

Although there is not a literal increase in status chance, there is an effective increase in status chance - that is, more status procs occur for a certain number of shots with Multishot compared to without Multishot.

 

Note:  If you require further information on Multishot (the mechanic) itself, please read its article on the wiki:  http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Multishot_(Mechanic)

 

Lastly, I'd like to discuss the difference between what Multishot effectively increases and mods that also fulfill those roles:

So multishot effectively increases damage-per-shot, magazine size, and status chance. Are there any mods that perform better than multishot their respective areas, and if there are, do they perform better than multishot in all its effective areas?

Note:  for the following examples and math, I will only be looking at Rifles.  Since their multishot chance is the lowest (+90%), it means that the effects of multishot will be even better on secondaries and shotguns (who have means to a higher multishot chance).  (So in a sense, a Rifle's multishot is a 'worst case scenario' for scenarios involving multishot.)

 

Damage-per-shot:

Split Chamber:  +90% multishot, 15 mod points, 1 mod slot

Serration:  +165% base damage, 14 mod points, 1 mod slot

Heavy Caliber:  +165% base damage, -55% accuracy, 16 mod points, 1 mod slot

 

Example:

Let's say there's a weapon with the following base stats: 10 damage per round, 1 round per shot.

With only Split Chamber:  10 damage per round, 1 round per shot with a 90% chance of an additional round, therefore there is on average about 19 damage per shot (this is not a literal damage amount, but an effect damage amount).

With only Serration:  16.5 damage per round, 1 shot per round, therefore 16.5 damage per shot.

 

Split Chamber isn't strictly better though - higher damage-per-round may be an advantage when fighting enemy with damage reduction or mitigation, for instance.  Serration doesn't seem to be strictly better either, as Split Chamber (mulishot) also adds utility from an effective increase in magazine size and status chance.

 

I do not significantly consider Heavy Caliber into the equation, as it is a strictly worse version of Serration (both in accuracy and in mod points).  The only reasons to consider it are for weapons that benefit from decreased accuracy or if you have some kind of personal vendetta against multishot.  Otherwise, Serration and Split Chamber offer literal and effective increases that are hard to beat, especially since both of them can be combined on a level 30 weapon, irregardless of any polarities (or lack thereof) or it being supercharged (potato'd).

 

Magazine size:  

Split Chamber:  +90% multishot, 15 mod points, 1 mod slot

Magazine Warp:  +30% magazine capacity, 9 mod points, 1 mod slot

Tainted Mag:  +66% magazine capacity, -33% reload speed, 13 mod points, 1 mod slot

Wildfire:  +20% magazine capacity, +60% fire damage, 9 mod points, 1 mod slot

 

So if solely put on a weapon with a magazine size of 100, they will have a magazine size of:

Split Chamber:  190 (effective)

Magazine Warp:  130 (literal)

Tainted Mag:  166 (literal)

Wildfire:  120 (literal)

 

The only mod that comes close to the value added to the weapon here is Tainted Mag, but that also comes at a hefty 13 mod points (only 2 less than Split Chamber) and -33% reload speed (which Split Chamber doesn't have to deal with).  Magazine Warp costs less, true, but you get what you pay for.  Wildfire is still useful, but only for its fire damage; in terms of magazine size, Split Chamber beats it by a mile, not to mention the other effective increases that Split Chamber offers.

 

Status chance:  

Split Chamber:  +90% multishot, 15 mod points, 1 mod slot

Hammer Shot:  +60% crit damage, +40% status chance, 9 mod points, 1 mod slot

High Voltage:  +60% electrical damage, +60% status chance, 7 mod points, 1 mod slot

Malignant Force:  +60% poison damage, +60% status chance, 7 mod points, 1 mod slot

Rifle Aptitude:  +15% status chance, 9 mod points, 1 mod slot

 

So if we consider weapons with 5% | 10% | 20% | 40% status chance per round, and they fire 100 shots....

Split Chamber:  9.5% | 19% | 38% | 76% status chance per shot, leading to 9-10 | 19 | 38 | 76 procs in 100 shots.

Hammer Shot:  7% | 14% | 28% | 56% status chance per shot, leading to 7 | 14 | 28 | 56 procs in 100 shots.

High Voltage:  8% | 16% | 32% | 64% status chance per shot, leading to 8 | 16 | 32 | 64 procs in 100 shots.

Malignant Force:  8% | 16% | 32% | 64% status chance per shot, leading to 8 | 16 | 32 | 64 procs in 100 shots.

Rifle Aptitude:  5.75% | 11.5% | 23% | 46% status chance per shot, leading to 5-6 | 11-2 | 23 | 46 procs in 100 shots.

 

Math for Split Chamber:

Each round has a chance to proc.  With multishot, each shot has a 90% chance to have an additional round.

100 shots + 90% multishot = effectively 190 rounds

effectively 190 rounds * status chance = Split Chamber status chance

190 * 0.05 = 9.5

190 * 0.10 = 19

190 * 0.20 = 38

190 * 0.40 = 76

 

In terms of +status chance alone, Multishot wins out for only 1 mod slot, but two other mods could be combined to give a higher +status chance (such as High Voltage and Malignant Force) for a similar number of mod points.  The elemental (or crit) damage is a plus, too, so if status chance is highly desirable, then these other mods are viable alternatives for it.  However, when it comes to damage-per-shot and its other areas, multishot still wins out (and is well worth the mod points in that regard).

 

So again, my questions:

Are there any mods that perform better than multishot their respective areas?

Damage-per-shot:  possibly Serration

Magazine Size:  no

Status chance:  no (unless multiple +status chance mods are combined; in which case, yes)

 

If there are, do they perform better than multishot in all its effective areas?

Damage-per-shot:  no

Magazine Size:  no

Status chance:  no

 

One last reminder:  this is for Rifles, who have the lowest multishot chance (+90%).  Shotguns (+120%) and Secondaries (+180%) can fare even better in regards to effective increases provided by multishot.

 

What makes Multishot so significant is that it has its effective increases of +damage-per-shot, +magazine size, and +status chance in a single package, which blows a lot of other mods out of the water.  Even for its expense, it offers phenomenal value; in addition to effectively increasing three different things, it also stacks with almost everything else weapon-related.  More damage?  Multishot makes it better.  Bigger magazine size?  Multishot increases its effective capacity.  More elemental damage?  Multishot makes it better, and effectively increases proc chance as well.  More fire rate?  Multishot loves spitting out additional rounds at a faster rate too.

 

And multishot does all this with no downside other than its rather expensive mod cost.  No additional recoil, no loss in accuracy, no increased ammo consumption.  Given that any max-ranked weapon can have multishot and their main +damage mod on it at the same time, even without a potato or any polarities, players start having to grasp at straws to find a reason not to use it.  I do not think any reasonable person would go without multishot on a serious weapon build, and as such, I view multishot mods as false-choice mods.

I scarcely see someone satisfy a troll as much as you just have.  Nonetheless the post is informative for those who care to read it.

[MoyuTheTrinity]

 

Alot of neet information

 

 

I see what you are saying you perfectly  explain why i dont like multishot very well

 

now what if the damage mods such as elements base damage and multishot where all brought down to between 10-30%  and ammo mods where increased alittle bit?  30% multishot would seem more like an option or even puting all multishot to 100% exactly and making it costs ammo in reserve with double the recoil even forcing weapons without recoil to have it? what if they gave a weapon a chance to jam?

 

ofcourse they would have to probably cut all enemy health shield and armor in half to make up for it tho this would make a beginer's life easier since they lack these mods

[D1398342003]

@castem: I'd like to point out a mistake in your math with Serration, it adds 165% damage, so the damage should be 26.5 = 16.5+10. Otherwise, good post.

[castem]

@castem: I'd like to point out a mistake in your math with Serration, it adds 165% damage, so the damage should be 26.5 = 16.5+10. Otherwise, good post.

 

You're quite right!  Thanks for pointing that out - I'll go ahead and change it.

[neKroMancer]

Bravo, castern, thanks for all the calculation and comparison.

[Ashnal]

 

I understand math fine, and milking the ever living hell out of my damage does not interest me. When my Marelok begins to keel off, my Penta comes into play. I used the Crit mod because there wasn't too much else I liked, and I found it quite helpful. All Crit does is give a chance to hit your highest possible damage. I wouldn't say they work the exact same way numerically.

They do work the same numerically though.

 

For crit, when you pull the trigger a random number between 0 and 100 is generated, and you get a crit depending on your crit chance. Then your damage on that bullet is multiplied by the crit multiplier.

 

For MS, it's a different process with the same end result. A random number is rolled and extra bullets are fired at the exact same moment as the first one. They impact your foe at the same time as a group.

 

So straight up. If an enemy has 1000 health, and shoot him with a 500 damage gun with a 2x multiplier and you'll have one bullet do 1000 damage and kill him. Now lets say you put on MS instead of crit on that same gun. If MS procs you'll shoot two 500 damage bullets at the same exact time. This means that the enemy ends up dead, same result as the crit scenario, since 2*500=1000. The important thing to remember here is that those bullets are fired at the same time and impact at the same time, so your damage in that moment of time is doubled regardless. You may not be doing the same amount of damage per bullet with MS, but you're doing the same amount of damage in total in the same amount of time as a crit would.

 

The point is regardless of whichever activates, MS or crit, you get twice as much damage applied to the enemy in that instant.

 

 

 

Of course at this point ... you could just be some ridiculous troll baiting people.

[Ashnal]

 

They still don't receive double the damage, they receive (assuming you hit) one shot, then another, as though you shot twice. That is not double the damage. MS is not a must-have for high content, it is still only a luxury. It's easy to go to high content and do very well without it.

Also I'd like to point out something. Either you're slipping up, or you have a misunderstanding of how MS works. MS isn't "one shot, then another."  MS is two/three bullets fired from your gun at the same instance, like how shotguns shoot pellets.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Ashnal

[VDeorsum]

Great Post castem! The maths isn't a opinion, you've come straight to the point =)

[VDeorsum]

I will point out here, that you do not always get x2 damage with Crit, I've had at times my normal damage do more than my crit damage. In the end however, it is still not literally double damage, 2 bullets of 4k damage is not 8k magically, it's 2 bullets of 4k.

 

if one bullet deal 4k of damage, mmm 2 bullets of 4k together deals....wait...2X4....it's difficult.... 0.0 magically 8k! 

too difficult? ok.

We try with an addition ok? 4k+4k=?....mmm.....8k? yeah!!! 8k!...magically 8k!. In the same amout of time, in the same istant (2 bullets fired at the same time, from an identical source, with the same initial energy, through the same material, if we assume thet this material is heterogeneous, will have the same travel time and so the same time of arrival) the enemy take 2 bullets, for a total damage ok 8k with a single shot, (Buum!) (i say shot, single shot, not single bullet -.-) this, if we use the words of catem a effective increase (not literal) of damage. You doesn't want to consider 8k the double of 4K? Ok man, no problem. But you want to deal more damage? maybe for your luxury or for play more hight content that you actually play? Use MS

Luxury? yeah, but a very utily luxury! 

Edited May 18, 2014 by VDeorsum

[Ashnal]

Show me where somebody, in- game, states "Oh I just did 2k on this shot and 5k on that, i'm upto 7k so far"

 

 

 

I will point out here, that you do not always get x2 damage with Crit, I've had at times my normal damage do more than my crit damage. In the end however, it is still not literally double damage, 2 bullets of 4k damage is not 8k magically, it's 2 bullets of 4k.

 

The enemy's health bar .....

Like seriously. The health bar is a running total of how much damage you have done to the enemy and how much HP they have left. You know that grey part? That's how much damage you've done, with the red/blue/yellow part being the HP/Shields/Armored HP they have left.

 

Very true you don't always get 2x damage on a crit. Some weapons have a 1.5x multiplier, some have a 3x multiplier. 100% MS is numerically equivalent to landing a crit with a  weapon that has a 2x multiplier given the same enemy with the same armor level and the damage type and same hit location. My point is that though if comparing MS with a 2x crit, they come out to the same amount of health missing from the enemy with all other factors being controlled for. Same goes for 180% MS when it comes out as 3 bullets being equivalent to a 3x crit in amount of health missing from the enemy, with all other factors being controlled for. Curious, did you learn about the scientific method in school?

 

 

I still think you're a troll ... and you haven't confirmed nor denied it yet.

[Ashnal]

And the damage done is still not double the damage like people here say it is. It is two shots dealing two different amounts of damage - not the same shot dealing twice the damage.

 

I am not a troll, I'm just correcting fallacies being put out here. MS is not the same as Crit. With Crit you can land 2x the damage you would have landed normally, which if low is not that great, you can hit higher normally at times. MS would just give you two shots, two bits of damage, not one, that wouldn't be identical, and thus may not add upto x2. Thus it is no double damage.

 

Again, nobody in game says "Oh i've done 2k plus 5k".

 

 

 

Opinion is opinion. If things are too difficult for you to understand, I'll explain slower ok?

 

If the enemy takes two hits, two bullets, one shot, that is not a literal increase (I suggest you re-read). You are still getting two instances of damage, not double the damage.

MS is not the same as crit, but the numerical result is the same. 4k damage + 4k damage in two bullets results in the same amount of missing health from an enemy as one 8k bullet. So regardless of weather you call it "double damage" or "two bullets," you end up with the same result, which is 8k health missing from the enemy. And lets remember that we mostly care how efficiently we can reduce enemies health/shields to 0. There is no possible way you can refute that fact, regardless of the terms used and your personal definitions of them.

 

MS bullets also do have the same base damage. Note "base" damage. There are two factors that can change that, being crit, and hit location. For instance it is possible for one bullet of an MS pair to crit, and the other not to. It can also be possible and more likely on inaccurate weapons for one MS bullet to be a headshot, and the other one not to be, or for one to miss. But aside from those circumstances, most of the time it works out as an average twice as much health missing from the enemy after an MS shot compared to a non MS shot (note i didn't say twice the damage since you seem to hate calling it that).

 

Can you honestly come back and say that a crit that does 8k damage and a MS shot that shoots two 4k bullets not both end up with the enemy missing 8k HP/Shields? Or that after a two bullet MS shot an enemy will usually be missing at least twice the amount of health as he would after a non-MS shot, assuming a controlled comparison? You've been dodging my carefully worded questions you know.

 

You mostly seem to be getting caught on the semantics of "double damage" vs. "two bullets."

Edited May 18, 2014 by Ashnal

[Iraetus]

 He may have missed the fact that multishot does not consume extra ammo. The 2 bullets fired basically does the same damage and has a higher chance for crit and status.

 

 

He also reminds me of this guy. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/960105-thief/68570250

[Psychosist]

The past three fourths of this thread has been derailed into an argument of semantics; arguing "toh-may-toh versus toh-mah-toh". GG Nightman, you've derailed yet another thread.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Psychosist

[neKroMancer]

The result of 100% crit chance is similar to 100% multishot. you either shoot one bullet that deals double damage (with x2 crit damage) or shoot one bullet that magically duplicate itself and hit the target simultaneously.

 

The problem is multishot not only increase damage, it also indirectly increase crit chance, status chance, magazine size, and firing rate at the same time. Arguably one of the most economical mod ever in this game. All due to the magical bullet.  

Edited May 18, 2014 by neKroMancer

[LunarWind]

 

    False-Choice Mods

For those unaware, a false choice is a decision that only has the illusion of choice (practically, there is really no choice to be had).  For example, being forced to choose between cake or death.  Since no reasonable person would choose to die rather than just have some cake, it is a false choice.

 

In Warframe, there are several mods that act as false choices – that their only reason for being excluded from a build is that you don't have the mod to begin with.  These mods are:  Serration, Split Chamber, Point Blank, Hell's Chamber, Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent*, Pressure Point, and Killing Blow*.

 

 

 

So here's the thing: You claim that the false-choice exists because having less damage means less effectiveness for the weapon.

You make a Massive assumption here: All players want more damage, faster killing weapons.

The obvious rationale behind your assumption is: Faster killing = higher rewards, in the form of credits, resources, affinity, and mods.

That again assumes that players desire material gain above all else.

 

However, what if we consider a player who does not play the game for material gains?

Let's suppose that a player exists, named Fatal1ty for this example, who only wants one thing: Headshots.

Fatal1ty loves to have the most headshots on the after-mission report, he loves seeing heads explode, he enjoys shooting the helmets off corpus, and he brags about being able to dead-eye an infested charger.

 

For Fatal1ty, the "Best" weapon is not the most "effective" (as you have defined it).

He does not need tons of damage and multi-shot and crit chance or fancy elemental effects.

Fatal1ty mods his weapons for accuracy, recoil reduction, reload speed, and *gasp* punch-through in order to land those rare double-headshots.

Obviously, he needs some damage to ensure 1-hit kills on higher level enemies, but he always makes sure to keep his Serration mod at the lowest level possible, so that he can't spoil his fun by accidentally killing an enemy with a body shot.

 

Your proposed changes would negatively impact his weapons by giving innate damage and multi-shot.

This would greatly reduce the number of 're-tries' he would have by making body shots do more damage.

Also, multi-shot would be very aggravating because the bullets spread independently, potentially causing more body-shots on a 'miss' and even one body-shot on a 'hit' in addition to the head-shot.

This would be horrifying for Fatal1ty.

However, you have deemed him an unreasonable person because he does not play the game your way.

You have stated that anyone who differs from your method of enjoyment is an unreasonable person.

 

That guy who mods his Tysis for lowest damage and most proc? Unreasonable.

Anyone who only brings pistols to fire wildly as they flying-jump-kick their enemies? Unreasonable.

People who mod the Ignis as a cone-knockdown CC machine? Unreasonable.

People who mod the Gorgon with slowest fire, highest clip-size, just to get moar DakkaDakka? Unreasonable, and likely green.

 

You take such a limited view of Warframe, of video gaming in general, with the assumption that the only rewards are the material rewards and that nobody plays for fun.

Some people (Me, hello!) intentionally equip low ranked serration and leave mod points and slots un-used on their weapons.

"Oh god why?"

Well, because I enjoy a certain style of gameplay, and that style does not involve one-shotting enemies.

I also intentionally use mods like 'diamondskin' instead of redirection and vitality. Am I insane? Maybe from your limited view.

Or maybe I do these things for the same reason anyone ever played "Slap Fights" in 007 Goldeneye on the N64.

Maybe I fight for fun.

 

All in all, you have a masterfully crafted post, technically speaking.

Well written and composed, with vast expanses of information and supportive points.

But ultimately you make too many assumptions at the beginning for it to mean much.

-1 to your suggestion, let's keep the ability to play as we want, not play as you want us to.

[Psychosist]

snip

Fun is subjective. Some players like doing damage, and others don't. This is honestly the first time I've heard of someone purposely gimping themselves (outside of Nightman...) for fun. Most players don't do that. Call it catering to the majority, but if you're going to play a shooter whose gameplay consists of stats, stats, and nothing but stats, this isn't the game for you.