(Dragon) Nikana - Back To The Drawing Board!

[Kuhrasu]

   Ever since space ninja action RPG was mentioned, a lot of us were drooling at the prospect of there eventually being a Katana type weapon. Obviously Katanas in real life were fairly disappointing and lackluster weapons, but in fiction Katanas hold a place as near and dear as Dirty Harry's Smith & Wesson Model 29 - powerful and romantic.

    What we ended up getting was disappointing, especially to anyone who has played video games featuring Katanas or Katana inspired weapons or anyone who has enjoyed fictional representations of Katanas. The reason is three fold:
- Design
- Animations
- Power

   Now to keep this as brief as possible, let's just summarize what the romantic depiction of a Katana is for each of those categories. Everyone knows the distinct look of a Katana, though in fiction Katanas have an air of thickness, like a nice thick, chunky piece of steel, which is also compact and features that distinctive curved shape, it feels like it can cut through anything. The motions are usually inspired by Iaido (strong, single cuts) able to cleave opponents in half with a single blow. And thus the power of a fictional Katana is that it can cut through anything and anyone with said single swing.

   What we got was not in line with this, the Nikanas look flimsy and non- threatening. Both stances feature lots of flailing about and swinging haphazardly, with the occasional clean cut inspired animation, which just feels blatantly out of place. All of this is compounded by the fact that at any medium to high level mission, a Nikana is weak, and it's combos are even weaker, which just creates this unsatisfying Katana inspired weapon that features animations that vary between "monkey with a stick" and fencing.

   So, let's fix all of this, starting with:
Design - Now, apart from the blade itself, I am actually really satisfied with how the standard Nikana looks, you have your lotus inspired tsuba (guard), a nice kojiri (scabbard tip) and just an all round decent looking Katana inspired weapon, aside from the blade feeling like a flimsy piece of foil.
My issue is that the Dragon Nikana looks so much worse, due primarily to the ornamental ribbon on the kojiri, which eliminates it's threatening nature as a blunt end of a long object and also makes any future Iaido inspired combos, which feature scabbard hits, have no impact due to the way it looks, this wonky little hook with a ribbon on the end.
Here are two pieces of art found on google image search which show what the differences between the Nikana and Dragon Nikana should be, and generally how they should have looked if the were ever supposed to be Katana inspired weapons.

Nikana

Dragon Nikana

Animations - Now this is clearly stance dependent and as we've seen so far, both current stances are a mixed bag or fairly silly animations with the occasional decent, Katana inspired animation. Now, instead of scrapping them, I suggest adding a stance which uses proper (if romanticized) Iaido techniques, Iaido being the premier stylish Katana fighting style, with the one decisive cut, instead of flailing about. Also the combos are lifted from the single most stylish Katana user in video games, so there's that too.

                                   Nikana Stance - Secret Sword 

Punishing Reveal - E E E
Strike your foes twice with the blunt tip of your scabbard, staggering them and dealing heavy impact damage, before introducing them to your blade and dealing a guaranteed critical hit!
http://a.pomf.se/fqxsat.webm

Vivisection - E E RMB + EE
Focus your efforts on a single foe, teaching them the meaning of pain and suffering as your brutal vertical slices cleave them in half!
http://a.pomf.se/rtgdwg.webm

Path of Blood - LMB + RMB + Hold E
Channel your energy into a draw so powerful it lunges you forward, slicing armor and flesh, as you deal a guaranteed bleed effect on any enemy in your path!
http://a.pomf.se/stripu.webm

   On the topic of power, the issue with Warframe as a whole is that fast weapons simply outdo slow weapons, which shouldn't be the case, they should be alternatives within their tiers. The problem with the Nikanas at the moment is that the combos deal less damage than simple spam, because they lack important payoff elements like the ones in my concept combos, guaranteed critical hits with larger multipliers, guaranteed AoE bleed procs, etc. I feel that the Nikanas need to be unique and not just another spam melee. In an ideal situation, you would be stimulated to perform the combos, because of the payoff at the end, which would coincide with romantic depictions of Katanas. I'm starting to ramble, so I'll simplify what I'm trying to say, look up to the http://a.pomf.se/fqxsat.webm'>Punishing Reveal combo. It takes several seconds to perform, let's say that the final hit will deal as much damage as a spam critical melee would have done in the same time, but in a single attack, which is what Katanas are all about.

 

So what do you guys think about the Nikanas, are the ok as they are right now, or did I hit the hail on the head?

Edited May 25, 2014 by Kuhrasu

[dukarriope]

I really just want to have battoujutsu.

[Endrance]

Imo, i like how the Nikanas looks, let's not forget that they are a "morph" between the old Earth Katanas with Tenno improvements. Therefore, there is actually no reason for them to look more like real-life katanas.

The only thing i kinda dislike on the Nikanas is the tsuba to be honest. That blade-imbued guard is a bit weird in my opinion.

 

As for animations, i also felt they were... weird, misplaced for the type of weapon.

 

As for power, won't talk much about Nikana, but you do realize that Dragon Nikana is probably the strongest Melee weapon atm right?

 

Average to good critical rate

Average to goo critical Damage

Highest base damage, so with mods it will certainly have the highest damage. Even though being slash.

Having highest base damage, also mean having highest Channeling damage.

Decent attack speed.

 

PS: I'm at work so i can't check your stance suggestion videos. But there is no need for that ^^

[Noobstein]

Nice work Tenno!

However, you may want to make your videos available, 'cause right now youtube says the videos are private and can't be viewed. Thank you!

[Kuhrasu]

Imo, i like how the Nikanas looks, let's not forget that they are a "morph" between the old Earth Katanas with Tenno improvements. Therefore, there is actually no reason for them to look more like real-life katanas.

The only thing i kinda dislike on the Nikanas is the tsuba to be honest. That blade-imbued guard is a bit weird in my opinion.

 

As for animations, i also felt they were... weird, misplaced for the type of weapon.

 

As for power, won't talk much about Nikana, but you do realize that Dragon Nikana is probably the strongest Melee weapon atm right?

 

Average to good critical rate

Average to goo critical Damage

Highest base damage, so with mods it will certainly have the highest damage. Even though being slash.

Having highest base damage, also mean having highest Channeling damage.

Decent attack speed.

 

PS: I'm at work so i can't check your stance suggestion videos. But there is no need for that ^^

It is well documented that Dragon Nikana is weaker than Dakra Prime, which is weaker than Dual Ichor.

[Kuhrasu]

Nice work Tenno!

However, you may want to make your videos available, 'cause right now youtube says the videos are private and can't be viewed. Thank you!

They are now available, I wanted to have them embedded, but DE don't allow multiple flash objects in a single post, so links will have to suffice.

[Endrance]

It is well documented that Dragon Nikana is weaker than Dakra Prime, which is weaker than Dual Ichor.

Only regarding to the stance additional damage.

 

Yet, Dragon Nikana has greater range and the stance gives more AoE porpuses.

 

For single target, Darkra might be better, but for multiple, i highly doubt it.

 

Unfortunatly, cannot confirm since i don't own Darkra

[Kuhrasu]

Only regarding to the stance additional damage.

 

Yet, Dragon Nikana has greater range and the stance gives more AoE porpuses.

 

For single target, Darkra might be better, but for multiple, i highly doubt it.

 

Unfortunatly, cannot confirm since i don't own Darkra

All Nikana combos lower DPS with the exception of the multiple stab from Tranquil Cleave, you are better off using quick melee, which is weaker than Dakra Prime with Dervish, and both are many times weaker than Dual Ichor.

[Phobose]

It Is are very interesting concepts. I do agree that the animations are a bit strange for a katana. The thing that irks me especially is the fact that after each strike the sword gets out away once the animation ends. This particually bothers me with decisive judgement.

For instance when in melee mode the tenno should hold the sword with both hands as a traditional samurai holds it. When he moves and or runs the blade is tilted sideways it shouldn't be in the be going back into sheath unless u exit melee mode l.

As for the design, im fine with it tho id like to see the friggin blade more often.

Theres a little saying ive always liked to believe:

No matter if the blade has dulled. If it has cut a feather merely by dropping it onto the blade It will surely do it again.

[Endrance]

For instance when in melee mode the tenno should hold the sword with both hands as a traditional samurai holds it. When he moves and or runs the blade is tilted sideways it shouldn't be in the be going back into sheath unless u exit melee mode l.

I believe that the stances were made based on Laido instead of "regular" combat. Since laido specializes in single hits and sheathing the blade after.

[Kuhrasu]

I believe that the stances were made based on Laido instead of "regular" combat. Since laido specializes in single hits and sheathing the blade after.

Too bad none of the stances feature Iaido inspired combos.

 

 

 

It Is are very interesting concepts. I do agree that the animations are a bit strange for a katana. The thing that irks me especially is the fact that after each strike the sword gets out away once the animation ends. This particually bothers me with decisive judgement.

For instance when in melee mode the tenno should hold the sword with both hands as a traditional samurai holds it. When he moves and or runs the blade is tilted sideways it shouldn't be in the be going back into sheath unless u exit melee mode l.

As for the design, im fine with it tho id like to see the friggin blade more often.

 

Sheathing and unsheathing being bound to the equip key

Yes please!

Edited May 22, 2014 by Kuhrasu

[sewens]

Yes pls.

 

Katana function really does need a rework. It feels more natural using a stanceless katana than any of the stances right now.

[Wolfstorm18]

When I look to the Dragon Nikana, I dont think on ninjas, I think on samurais and their Bushido code. The way the Dragon Nikana is used, being unsheated and sheated again on each swing, is not ninja at all. That being said, Im not surprised of seeing anime-fans finding the animations 'strange'. I like those animations, they made my frames look like disciplined samurais. Try it on Volt or Frost. 

[Kuhrasu]

When I look to the Dragon Nikana, I dont think on ninjas, I think on samurais and their Bushido code. The way the Dragon Nikana is used, being unsheated and sheated again on each swing, is not ninja at all. That being said, Im not surprised of seeing anime-fans finding the animations 'strange'. I like those animations, they made my frames look like disciplined samurais. Try it on Volt or Frost. 

The idle animation is fine, no one has any qualms with it, it's the stupid flailing about like a monkey combo animations or the fencing animation that have nothing to do with the romantic depictions of Katana combat, that we have an issue with.

[Janzer]

Quick melee is boring as .... yeah not for me. I don't care about DPS. I want high power per strike on this weapon. I shouldn't have to spam quick melee. I know that's a tactic for striking fast to get higher damage output, but I don't care! It looks really dumb and counter to the idea of what this weapon should perform like.

 

I want to be able to stand in an open area unmoving and allow the enemy to come to me, striking them down with minimal energy, effort, and movement, like a total badass hahaaah!

[Kuhrasu]

Quick melee is boring as .... yeah not for me. I don't care about DPS. I want high power per strike on this weapon. I shouldn't have to spam quick melee. I know that's a tactic for striking fast to get higher damage output, but I don't care! It looks really dumb and counter to the idea of what this weapon should perform like.

 

I want to be able to stand in an open area unmoving and allow the enemy to come to me, striking them down with minimal energy, effort, and movement, like a total badass hahaaah!

Well let's hope that DE notices that we aren't satisfied with what they have provided - a skana reskin with silly animations.

[Cwierz]

I was always hoping melee 2.0 would be more like the game "Blade Symphony" 

[Kuhrasu]

I was always hoping melee 2.0 would be more like the game "Blade Symphony" 

That would require a complete re-balance of the game and competent enemy Melee AI. Let's first try and get DE to make their weapons decent and nail done some core melee mechanics before actually trying to make the system challenging and fun at the same time. Baby steps, for example:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/234751-backstabbing-and-executions-cool-but-useless-lets-fix-that/#entry2729279

[Altey]

All i want is Muramasa blade(with gunsheath) from MGRR

[Kuhrasu]

All i want is Muramasa blade(with gunsheath) from MGRR

Don't we all?

 

I have said many times, though not on the forums for the most part, that DE need to stop thinking that they know best, sit down and play some video games, and when they are done with that, they can come back to Warframe and embrace crazy, fun, challenging designs and content creation, while providing a fair, honest, open and interactive monetization scheme, ala Valve's model.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Kuhrasu

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

   Ever since space ninja action RPG was mentioned, a lot of us were drooling at the prospect of there eventually being a Katana type weapon. Obviously Katanas in real life were fairly disappointing and lackluster weapons, but in fiction Katanas hold a place as near and dear as Dirty Harry's Smith & Wesson Model 29 - powerful and romantic.

    What we ended up getting was disappointing, especially to anyone who has played video games featuring Katanas or Katana inspired weapons or anyone who has enjoyed fictional representations of Katanas. The reason is three fold:

- Design

- Animations

- Power

   Now to keep this as brief as possible, let's just summarize what the romantic depiction of a Katana is for each of those categories. Everyone knows the distinct look of a Katana, though in fiction Katanas have an air of thickness, like a nice thick, chunky piece of steel, which is also compact and features that distinctive curved shape, it feels like it can cut through anything. The motions are usually inspired by Iaido (strong, single cuts) able to cleave opponents in half with a single blow. And thus the power of a fictional Katana is that it can cut through anything and anyone with said single swing.

   What we got was not in line with this, the Nikanas look flimsy and non- threatening. Both stances feature lots of flailing about and swinging haphazardly, with the occasional clean cut inspired animation, which just feels blatantly out of place. All of this is compounded by the fact that at any medium to high level mission, a Nikana is weak, and it's combos are even weaker, which just creates this unsatisfying Katana inspired weapon that features animations that vary between "monkey with a stick" and fencing.

   So, let's fix all of this, starting with:

Design - Now, apart from the blade itself, I am actually really satisfied with how the standard Nikana looks, you have your lotus inspired tsuba (guard), a nice kojiri (scabbard tip) and just an all round decent looking Katana inspired weapon, aside from the blade feeling like a flimsy piece of foil.

My issue is that the Dragon Nikana looks so much worse, due primarily to the ornamental ribbon on the kojiri, which eliminates it's threatening nature as a blunt end of a long object and also makes any future Iaido inspired combos, which feature scabbard hits, have no impact due to the way it looks, this wonky little hook with a ribbon on the end.

Here are two pieces of art found on google image search which show what the differences between the Nikana and Dragon Nikana should be, and generally how they should have looked if the were ever supposed to be Katana inspired weapons.

Nikana

Dragon Nikana

Animations - Now this is clearly stance dependent and as we've seen so far, both current stances are a mixed bag or fairly silly animations with the occasional decent, Katana inspired animation. Now, instead of scrapping them, I suggest adding a stance which uses proper (if romanticized) Iaido techniques, Iaido being the premier stylish Katana fighting style, with the one decisive cut, instead of flailing about. Also the combos are lifted from the single most stylish Katana user in video games, so there's that too.

                                   Nikana Stance - Secret Sword 

Punishing Reveal - E E E

Strike your foes twice with the blunt tip of your scabbard, staggering them and dealing heavy impact damage, before introducing them to your blade and dealing a guaranteed critical hit!

http://a.pomf.se/fqxsat.webm

Vivisection - E E RMB + EE

Focus your efforts on a single foe, teaching them the meaning of pain and suffering as your brutal vertical slices cleave them in half!

http://a.pomf.se/rtgdwg.webm

Path of Blood - LMB + RMB + Hold E

Channel your energy into a draw so powerful it lunges you forward, slicing armor and flesh, as you deal a guaranteed bleed effect on any enemy in your path!

http://a.pomf.se/stripu.webm

   And finally on the topic of power, I think the descriptions for those rather derivative combos brought my point home fairly well. A katana inspired weapon should have the capacity to kill with a single foe in a single hit, or at least be something close to that, obviously you also need movement utility, which is the Path of Blood combo, which also has large AOE damage. The Nikanas in Warframe need to feel strong and decisive, not be some spamy DPS stick, but deal massive single hits and such, otherwise, what's the point of even having them, if they're going to work like any other melee?

So what do you guys think about the Nikanas, are the ok as they are right now, or did I hit the hail on the head?

 

P.S. Hey, DE, get with the times already and allow .webm files to be embedded, my combo clips are just 700kb each.

Very, very nicely done. This is what I was thinking. I'd like to see the katana animations be a mix of MGR:R and DMC. Also, the Katanas are remade to look like the images above. Other than that, spot on!

[Koultunami]

I too would like sexy Nikanas, please pay attention.

[Beas7ie]

I was always hoping melee 2.0 would be more like the game "Blade Symphony" 

 

I was hoping melee 2.0 would be more like Dynasty/Samurai Warriors.  Though instead of juggling your enemies around like in the game you cut them up into bloody bits.

[tloid]

The nikanas could do with having thicker blades and more controlled movements. Do you have any suggestions for Decisive Judgement, using two-handed techniques (which I find more fitting for a weapon like the katana)?

[Geoff8733]

   And finally on the topic of power, I think the descriptions for those rather derivative combos brought my point home fairly well. A katana inspired weapon should have the capacity to kill with a single foe in a single hit, or at least be something close to that ... The Nikanas in Warframe need to feel strong and decisive, not be some spamy DPS stick, but deal massive single hits and such, otherwise, what's the point of even having them, if they're going to work like any other melee

 

Why should this principle only apply to the Nikana. Every melee weapon in the game is based on a weapon just as lethal as the katana, surely they should also be able to one hit enemies?