I Think It's Time Boltor Prime Stops Rendering ~130 Weapons Obsolete

[dragonboss]

I don't agree to nerfing things into the ground, Prime or not. They are meant to be the best weapons....theoretically. I think they need to have their own special drawbacks that make using them an advantage in terms of damage, but have a unique disadvantage like overheating or something.

 

Power Creep is out of control in the game at the moment, because we have close to 0 skill based/mechanic based gameplay, it's just a sheer numbers game, and not a good one at that.

 

Borderlands has power creep, but weapons are balanced for certain level ranges whereas waframe has the mod system, which is being used as a be all end all for customisation. It is not standing the test of time very well and it's flaws are becoming very apparent, though people usually think it is just the weapon/warframe that is "OP".

 

The weapons don't even have very distinct properties according to faction. Sure a weapon may do more slash or impact or puncture, but in the end it doesn't matter that much because the top tier weapons are just the best overall. Games like Halo don't have things like that. I do realise there are fewer weapons, but they all have their pros and cons, so even someone with a rocket launcher is not necessarily better than someone with a pistol.

 

The problems with the weapons are also made worse when DE decides to churn out more and more mastery fodder type weapons just to keep people interested in playing/buying. I want new  content and weapons as much as the next guy, but if we keep going like this tons of weapons will become redundant. Warframes as well, which has arguably begun to happen with the release of oberon.

[TonyFoot]

I love how you consider a weapon powerful because you only seen that (not that it is not) . I will tell you a secret there are other weapons that can do more damage than Boltor prime and held better than it with 4 forma i .Also if i spent hours ad hours levelling it up and spending plat for catalyst it will be a monster . A weapon is good but its true potential gets unlocked by lots of time and many forma and catalyst and when that is finished you are satisfied that you can melt anything . See the problem? you are just jealous that all the kids have an awesome 4 or even 5 forma boltor prime and you sit in the corner not having it and want to ruin all the other toys because you dont have it i have one word for that DEAL WITH IT :D

 

Boltor Prime has the highest base DPS of all rifles in the game, with or without reload. The base burst DPS is higher than its next best contenders, Latron Prime and Supra, by about 100 damage per second. With reload, it's even worse. You can look this up http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_Comparison'>here.

 

Given that all rifles have access to the same mod system, which is often multiplicative instead of additive, don't you think that, just maybe, the disparity shouldn't be so large? I'm fine with it having the highest DPS, but this likely qualifies as imbalanced.

Edited June 9, 2014 by TonyFoot

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

-snip-

...And if you can't see how a power creep is cheap manipulation meant to obsolete your old gear and encourage people to spend money, I'm very sorry.

 

But Warframe is free to play and personally out of 130 or so weapons I've only purchased 10 or so.  All weapons can be farmed and all weapons except exclusives and event rewards can be had by every player.

 

It's not like the Boltor Prime is locked behind a pay wall.  You can trade for it if you're not lucky, and acquire it in game by just playing void missions.

 

I'm afraid the devs aren't going to go back and balance every single weapon.  For instance, I don't think the Strun should be as powerful as the Boar Prime.

 

As others have mentioned here, there are several weapons that have comparable damage to the Boltor Prime, but have different characteristics and mechanics.

 

Pure power creep is having the devs release a new weapon every week that's 5% more powerful than the previous weeks, etc...  That's not the case.  The devs release weapons that are sometimes stronger, sometimes weaker, have different characteristics, etc.

 

Look at the Nami Solo...  It's a new release but doesn't outclass the Nikana, etc.  Some people play it for aesthetics.

 

I think we all need to understand that there ARE in fact several tiers of weapons in this game.  In some ways it's up to us players not to carry the most powerful weapon into a battle with low level enemies and steam roll them.  We're kinda knowingly robbing ourselves out of challenging gameplay by doing so.

 

However, there are quite a few clan weapons that should be revisited and buffed to reflect their master requirements and the resources needed to craft them.

Edited June 9, 2014 by sushidubya

[BloodArmoredApostle]

It gets worse and worse. People adapting to the common opinion just to get more likes and to be part of the bigger group, cause they fear being flamed. This is the worst thing that can happen with those communities. People are feared to bring up their opinion, cause a few big names will come and shut them down, getting tons of followers.

Info..I dont have a bunch of followers nor am I That guy to just say something just because I can.

 

 

Wow. I don't think you could have phrased that any more arrogantly.

 

Anyway, no. You're incorrect, sir. Even on the example you provided. Many people will take different jobs if they think they'd enjoy them more, if they have better hours, if the work load is lighter, if it suits them more. Not everyone, in fact I'd wager most people, do no do things purely because of the monetary reward or potential authority.

 

And gameplay can be rewarding without completely disregarding balance. In fact a balanced game is one of the most rewarding experiences, such as the long lived and startlingly well balanced Team Fortress 2. Balance has nothing at all to do with realism. Also, you're incorrect again in assuming that balance is purely subjective. Incomparables aside, simple numerical balancing can be performed, and Warframe certainly lacks that, having a handful of weapons that dramatically overtake every other one of the 130+ others in the game. And if you can't see how a power creep is cheap manipulation meant to obsolete your old gear and encourage people to spend money, I'm very sorry.

Arrogantly, hmm that is rather harsh. I am stating the truth whether you agree or not. That is the truth. Accepting it or not is your choice in the matter. However, history and history in gaming proves itself. I knew you would rebuttal with this theory. The truth is that whether you agree or not. Everyone wants the ability to change their situation or in some means have some amount of control (truth). As far as jobs, that was a example. Even though a person changed jobs for whatever reason, it still means they are still trying to control their environment. There is a small amount of control in everything. Deny it or not. Whatever you have done gaming wise has a factor of control in it. We naturally want to control our environment (IE do what we want to not according to anyone else's viewpoint unless we agree or personal experience.) Anyone denying that fact is in denial themselves.

 

IE. If you don't make decision's based on your brains input/output we have a problem.

 

Balance is subjective...whether you agree or not. 

 

Ex.

-Some people think poison is worse than a explosion

-Some people think being hit by a bullet that bounces off your insides is more damaging than poison

-Some people think being hit in the head with a arrow is worst that being shot in the head with a bullet

-Some people think being hit with a grenade is worse than being hit with a missile

-Some people think being hit with a missile is worse than being hit with napalm

-some people think being hit with acid is worse than napalm

-Some people think being hit with electricity is worse than being burned with a flamethrower

-Some people think being hit with a nerve gas is worse that being hit with a tank round.

 

****Note: The perception of death is subjective no matter what "numerical value" you input unless you are at deaths door by these factors yourself. Even at that if everyone was given the experience of dying by these different types of deaths by a pain factor. I can put my GrandMaster's rank on it people will have different opinion. Which really means that would be subjective as well.****

 

All these values in a game are subjective to the developer and people playing the game in general. If you deny that it isn't subjective. Then, that means that the human imagination or what is perceived to be worse than the other doesn't count.

 

Numerical balancing comes from people inserting numbers into a calculation system created by other people or instituted by some other factor involving human interaction. It is subjective to that person's perception. So, in short terms...your wrong.

 

 

****Note: If you like side-grades play Planetside 2 and Battlefield 4. I am sure you will love that as progression.****

Edited June 9, 2014 by BloodArmoredApostle

[Detheroc]

Info..I dont have a bunch of followers nor am I That guy to just say something just because I can.

You thought i was talking to you only? Boy you sure wish to be that important right? No, i was talking about the whole situation here. People give opinions, get shut down immediately with "No.", because its easy right? Most of these opinions suggest changes to the system. People are afraid of changes by default, and will shout "No."

[BloodArmoredApostle]

You thought i was talking to you only? Boy you sure wish to be that important right? No, i was talking about the whole situation here. People give opinions, get shut down immediately with "No.", because its easy right? Most of these opinions suggest changes to the system. People are afraid of changes by default, and will shout "No."

What you don't feel important or wish you were? haha ( I can play that game too XD)

 

Why would you assume something as if I was....lol. No, your mistaken. Why would you be narrow minded in your response here. I addressed you not advocating anything your saying in this. Literally, be more respectful in that fact I addressed your response rather. I can see the whole situation before you even mentioned this reply. Other's may not reply so they aren't made to look like what they aren't. Don't twist anything just to make a point. That definitely isn't any way to make a point.

 

The whole "No" is really how some people feel. I don't think that everyone should have to explain everything on their mind at the time unless they want to...you'll take the ability to just have freedom of speech out of everyone's hands...granted its not the best response. 

 

Honestly, I would rather someone be honest and tell me no if they so choose. At least, thats how they feel. I wouldn't take that from anyone.

Edited June 9, 2014 by BloodArmoredApostle

[Detheroc]

What you don't feel important or wish you were? haha ( I can play that game too XD)

 

Why would you assume something as if I was....lol. No, your mistaken. Why would you be narrow minded in your response here. I addressed you not advocating anything your saying in this. Literally, be more respectful in that fact I addressed your response rather. I can see the whole situation before you even mentioned this reply. Other's may not reply so they aren't made to look like what they aren't. Don't twist anything just to make a point. That definitely isn't any way to make a point.

 

The whole "No" is really how some people feel. I don't think that everyone should have to explain everything on their mind at the time unless they want to...you'll take the ability to just have freedom of speech out of everyone's hands...granted its not the best response. 

 

Honestly, I would rather someone be honest and tell me no if they so choose. At least, thats how they feel. I wouldn't take that from anyone.

The problem with No is that it isnt constructive. In any way. If people dont want stuff, they dont want it for a reason. And to give that reason makes it a constructive comment. If they cant provide anything more than No, just dont respond. Its more constructive, because that way around they dont produce 2 pages of "No." comments, instead leave the space for people with useful comments.

On my response to you, ill take that back. Its just people in these forums tend to make me angry at times.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Detheroc

[Garuger]

 

Boltor Prime has the highest base DPS of all rifles in the game, with or without reload. The base burst DPS is higher than its next best contenders, Latron Prime and Supra, by about 100 damage per second. With reload, it's even worse. You can look this up here.

 

Given that all rifles have access to the same mod system, which is often multiplicative instead of additive, don't you think that, just maybe, the disparity shouldn't be so large? I'm fine with it having the highest DPS, but this likely qualifies as imbalanced.

You are so ignorant you are amusing you know that?Wiki is wrong because that would be in perfect conditions and Supra cant perfome that well basically cant perform at all at high level the top weapons are those who can crit Soma / Synapse /Amphex / Pris Prime . Boltor has the highest FLAT damage . Boltor prime can be out damage by the red crits of  ampex i believe and other weapons of that level and it can also be out damaged by Angstrum not to mention it can out damaged also by Burston prime . Look by yourself how wrong you are Burtson prime (http://goo.gl/TYGc8D) / Boltor prime (http://goo.gl/mFp9fB) / Soma (http://goo.gl/RVkVjT) . That page is 100% accurate so tell me again how monsterly OP boltor prime is (check the boxes to see max damage multi shot and crit) 

Edited June 9, 2014 by Garuger

[Cursor]

snip

 

I forgot to respond to this too, sorry. All the typing.

 

Warframe is free to play, but it has microtransactions. Every gun is half as effective, arguably even less, without a catalyst, which are not readily available within game and are consumed on use. The model of a f2p game is that every minute spent playing is another minute a player might spend money on it. This is why a constant stream of new weapons, time sink grinding, and the extremely insidious argon crystal timer, are all covertly methods to get money out of your pocket. You might say you could merely trade for platinum, but someone had to buy it.

 

To a degree, the Boltor Prime is behind a paywall. You have an inferior version if you don't sink a catalyst into it.

 

And on the subject of Strun, I actually do think Strun should be as strong as the Boar Prime, if only in raw damage. Which, you'll note, it is. But this isn't about weapons matching each other exactly. The weapons can be different, have different strengths, but they should all be somewhat valid. Strun and Boar Prime have similar damage, but the fire rate and magazine size, reload speed, critical chance, and status chance leave Strun so far behind it's barely worth using by comparison. And I don't know about you, but I don't recall seeing one since I started playing, when even then it was just an "okay" weapon, being one of two shotguns.

 

Power creep does not need to be regular nor does it necessitate regular increments. All that matters is that new content eclipses old content. Remember when Soma was the king? What about back when Gorgon was considered among the most powerful? The vanilla Boltor used to be considered very strong.

 

The Nami Solo was a good addition that I actually liked, for several reasons. It expanded the Machete pool, it was made largely to appease people who wanted it, and it filled an unoccupied niche. It was not merely a downgrade of the Nami Skyla, and that's the sort of weapons we should be getting. Not dramatically better or worse, just different.

 

There are tiers but it's a complete mess. You could get a Brakk at any mastery rank. Spectra is rank 4, and is one of the worst weapons in the game only slightly ahead of the basic Lato, yet Marelok is just one rank above and is arguably the third strongest secondary in the game. And unfortunately, I don't believe most players to even remotely have the restraint to leave their big guns at home when going to, say Saturn or any other low level system.

 

Just to reiterate, my opinion is that the gap between the strongest and the weakest weapons needs to be closed significantly. Not completely done away with, mind, but the disparity we currently have is absurd.

[neKroMancer]

Look like these balance topics are going toward the same way, objective vs subjective. Ten pages long of this type of topic usually revolve around one side offer evidence based on numbers, performance, trying to highlight the inconsistency between weapons while another side simply offering nothing but subjective opinion about fun and making excuses out of thin air. 

 

To OP, I believe that the current buff X / nerf Y topics are merely the symptom of a bigger issue - mastery rank being useless.

 

Lack of standard:

no weighed score based on performance. 

no internal balance within each rank. 

no inter-rank standard.

 

If anything, DE need to make a decision regrading item progression. Are we going toward pure powercreep without any balance? Are we going toward a more structured approach with balance?

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

I forgot to respond to this too, sorry. All the typing.

 

Warframe is free to play, but it has microtransactions. Every gun is half as effective, arguably even less, without a catalyst, which are not readily available within game and are consumed on use. The model of a f2p game is that every minute spent playing is another minute a player might spend money on it. This is why a constant stream of new weapons, time sink grinding, and the extremely insidious argon crystal timer, are all covertly methods to get money out of your pocket. You might say you could merely trade for platinum, but someone had to buy it.

 

To a degree, the Boltor Prime is behind a paywall. You have an inferior version if you don't sink a catalyst into it.

 

And on the subject of Strun, I actually do think Strun should be as strong as the Boar Prime, if only in raw damage. Which, you'll note, it is. But this isn't about weapons matching each other exactly. The weapons can be different, have different strengths, but they should all be somewhat valid. Strun and Boar Prime have similar damage, but the fire rate and magazine size, reload speed, critical chance, and status chance leave Strun so far behind it's barely worth using by comparison. And I don't know about you, but I don't recall seeing one since I started playing, when even then it was just an "okay" weapon, being one of two shotguns.

 

Power creep does not need to be regular nor does it necessitate regular increments. All that matters is that new content eclipses old content. Remember when Soma was the king? What about back when Gorgon was considered among the most powerful? The vanilla Boltor used to be considered very strong.

 

The Nami Solo was a good addition that I actually liked, for several reasons. It expanded the Machete pool, it was made largely to appease people who wanted it, and it filled an unoccupied niche. It was not merely a downgrade of the Nami Skyla, and that's the sort of weapons we should be getting. Not dramatically better or worse, just different.

 

There are tiers but it's a complete mess. You could get a Brakk at any mastery rank. Spectra is rank 4, and is one of the worst weapons in the game only slightly ahead of the basic Lato, yet Marelok is just one rank above and is arguably the third strongest secondary in the game. And unfortunately, I don't believe most players to even remotely have the restraint to leave their big guns at home when going to, say Saturn or any other low level system.

 

Just to reiterate, my opinion is that the gap between the strongest and the weakest weapons needs to be closed significantly. Not completely done away with, mind, but the disparity we currently have is absurd.

 

Thanks for the well written response.  =)

 

While there are no major flaws in your points here,  I will disagree with some of them.  

 

I don't think the devs are encouraging people actively to buy things in the market via power creep, which is the crux of your post earlier.  That's what I disagree with you on.

 

I read that you believe the strun should be as powerful as the boar prime.  I disagree with you on that, because one is supposed to be an entry level weapon that can be had very early on in game, while the latter is to be accessed once one becomes fairly familiar with Warframe and starts running void missions.

 

IMO the disparity we have between the weakest and strongest weapons is quite good for the game actually.  It encourages people to progress in the game.  HOWEVER...  currently the mastery ranks DO NOT reflect the power of the weapons right now.  THAT really needs to change.  There ARE in fact allot of weapons that are misrepresented by mastery rank right now.  Spectra and Supra are very clear examples.

 

Honestly I do feel that top tier weapons should be accessible only after mastery rank 10.  This is not to exclude newbies or intermediate players, but rather to allow them to appreciate that power once they get it.  Let's face it.  Players that make it to Mastery Rank 10 pretty much know how to warframe quite well and are close to having a few (if not all) of their Rank 10 "essential" mods maxed or close to max.

 

I believe the devs should really sit down and put all of the weapons though a DPS calculator and distribute them among mastery rank 0-10.  I'd like to see weapons ordered perfectly by mastery rank that way.  While I disagree with judging weapons purely by DPS, it is a valuable too nonetheless and the only way to objectively quantify the difference between weapons.

 

Mastery rank really should mean more in this game.  If the devs entice players to gain more mastery, thus investing more of their time in the game, they'll see more loyal players.

[notionphil]

We are all human...naturally we want power. Deny that and I would like to know what planet you came from. You don't take another job unless you are going to make more money (case and point. Unless there are other parameters that hinder your performance).

 

This is a fair point to explain why people don't WANT the boltor prime to be balanced with other weapons. However it has nothing to do with whether or not it SHOULD be balanced with other weapons.

 

Humans want power. Great. But guess what? We have given up our power to elected officials and law enforcement because we know that we aren't terribly effective at each running our own little countries independantly. We'd make some pretty bad decisions if we all lived in Notionphil land and Bloodarmoredville. We tried that, it was called the state of nature.

 

How'd it work? Not so much. Ask this guy.

 

Similarly here, yes, no one likes their 'power' taken away (aka nerfed). However, the point of balancing is to ensure that multiple weapons/frames/powers are equally attractive to players - if one is the "obvious choice" because it's simply hands down better than everything else, it ends up being the only one used.

 

This means the game gets boring more quickly because everyone is RhinoOrNova/Boltor /Brakk/ Dragon Nikana. No matter whether or not they know it, you players get bored more quickly when that is the only logical option for you to run in an extended portion of the game's content. Thus they don't play as much. Or buy as many new weapons (bc as you said, who wants a worse weapon?). So guess who ends up losing?

 

We all do.

Edited June 9, 2014 by notionphil

[BloodArmoredApostle]

This is a fair point to explain why people don't WANT the boltor prime to be balanced with other weapons. However it has nothing to do with whether or not it SHOULD be balanced with other weapons.

 

Humans want power. Great. But guess what? We have given up our power to elected officials and law enforcement because we know that we aren't terribly effective at each running our own little countries independantly. We'd make some pretty bad decisions if we all lived in Notionphil land and Bloodarmoredville. We tried that, it was called the state of nature.

 

How'd it work? Not so much. Ask this guy.

 

Similarly here, yes, no one likes their 'power' taken away (aka nerfed). However, the point of balancing is to ensure that multiple weapons/frames/powers are equally attractive to players - if one is the "obvious choice" because it's simply hands down better than everything else, it ends up being the only one used.

 

This means the game gets boring more quickly because everyone is RhinoOrNova/Boltor /Brakk/ Dragon Nikana. No matter whether or not they know it, you players get bored more quickly when that is the only logical option for you to run in an extended portion of the game's content. Thus they don't play as much. Or buy as many new weapons (bc as you said, who wants a worse weapon?). So guess who ends up losing?

 

We all do.

I believe you misunderstand what I am saying....or I didn't explain it good enough so I will apologize for that factor if it is the case.

 

I believe you see the surface of what I am saying, and not the core. It is truth we want to play games based upon what we are interested in (example). That is a means of players being able to control what games they like or don't like. This isn't a bad thing don't take me wrong here ok. I am just saying in some manner or another we have a innate ability to want to create/modify things. You play a game you want a point to it not a "oh a finished a game great feeling". You play borderlands you don't even think that way. Weapons are great there and freaking either OP or suck. Hey, it is progression in the game. It gives you the ability to say "I actually accomplished something awesome". Then there are modes in the game that bring you back to it to play and make it very challenging. So, don't take what I am saying for face value on this one. I covered a general area to relay a well known point. I don't play a game to have sidegrades of stuff. Those kind of games are twitch and die games, based upon how fast you can see a target. After awhile that begins to where off, the game is bland due to just getting a weapon just to have it. There is no real point to the game. It has nothing to offer rank,weapons,armor, progression. It is just bland old shooter game that you can find anywhere.

 

That is what warframe is not. Sadly, the end-game content hasn't arrived yet. With that how can you say nerf this or that without knowing the limits of the game? You see it all to commonly on these types of games where suggestions are just like a previous game played. Sure some factors of the game are implemented in others, but taking away the uniqueness of a game just because of a suggestion that resembles completely different from the core/lore of this game doesn't make much sense to me. That is my opinion on that, but I don't see a reason for taking away or nerfing content when we are on the verge of discovering this game's end-game content. It would be literally impossible to gauge a game without that content.

 

Substitute end-game is Survivals/Defenses.

 

Real Game end-game isn't even here yet. So, how could we be suggesting nerfs or things of that nature without the limits of end-game. Can't do that. Even if we all sit down and guess, the Devs will show us when the time comes. If we keep suggesting things like this until that time. I bet you things will really begin to come to light.

[notionphil]

I believe you misunderstand what I am saying....or I didn't explain it good enough so I will apologize for that factor if it is the case.

 

I believe you see the surface of what I am saying, and not the core. It is truth we want to play games based upon what we are interested in (example). That is a means of players being able to control what games they like or don't like. This isn't a bad thing don't take me wrong here ok. I am just saying in some manner or another we have a innate ability to want to create/modify things. You play a game you want a point to it not a "oh a finished a game great feeling". You play borderlands you don't even think that way. Weapons are great there and freaking either OP or suck. Hey, it is progression in the game. It gives you the ability to say "I actually accomplished something awesome". Then there are modes in the game that bring you back to it to play and make it very challenging. So, don't take what I am saying for face value on this one. I covered a general area to relay a well known point. I don't play a game to have sidegrades of stuff. Those kind of games are twitch and die games, based upon how fast you can see a target. After awhile that begins to where off, the game is bland due to just getting a weapon just to have it. There is no real point to the game. It has nothing to offer rank,weapons,armor, progression. It is just bland old shooter game that you can find anywhere.

 

That is what warframe is not. Sadly, the end-game content hasn't arrived yet. With that how can you say nerf this or that without knowing the limits of the game? You see it all to commonly on these types of games where suggestions are just like a previous game played. Sure some factors of the game are implemented in others, but taking away the uniqueness of a game just because of a suggestion that resembles completely different from the core/lore of this game doesn't make much sense to me. That is my opinion on that, but I don't see a reason for taking away or nerfing content when we are on the verge of discovering this game's end-game content. It would be literally impossible to gauge a game without that content.

 

Substitute end-game is Survivals/Defenses.

 

Real Game end-game isn't even here yet. So, how could we be suggesting nerfs or things of that nature without the limits of end-game. Can't do that. Even if we all sit down and guess, the Devs will show us when the time comes. If we keep suggesting things like this until that time. I bet you things will really begin to come to light.

 

We can suggest balance before the limits of endgame, because when the graph of (single target DPS) weapon power looks like this, it breaks player choice:

 

                                                                                                                x    -     that x is boltor prime

                                                                                               xxxxxxxxxxx

        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxx

 

The issue isn't that there's an obscenely powerful weapon.

 

It's that there's ONE obscenely powerful weapon, and it has negligible drawbacks to use, so it's just better than everything else in nearly every situation.

 

The issue is that If you want to play endless modes and you don't take that single obscenely powerful weapon you are self-handapping how far you can be useful to your team. Didn't feel like bringing Boltor Prime? = "dude yr nooob why you no take boltor p". You are now doing 1 damage while your team is dealing hundreds per shot. You have less choice.

 

It's also that the one obscenely powerful weapon is accessible at nearly the start of the game, so it totally breaks the progression curve.

 

It's also that the one obscenely powerful weapon has no limits or drawbacks to using it in low or mid level content - so it becomes the best choice even if you're a Rank 2 player on Earth.

 

It doesn't matter if DE's going to make level 200 enemies next week. At that time, they'll make 50K DPS weapons to go along with them. And hopefully they'll make a lot of them, so we have variety...instead of just a Penta Vandal. And hopefully those 50K DPS weapons won't be accessible to low rank players who don't need them.

 

But right now, we don't need that weapon, and its existence without any drawbacks or limitations does nothing besides make 130 other weapons a bad choice in all 'long wave survival' content.

 

Note - My solution would not be to reduce the DPS. It would be to make the weapon have a higher mastery rank and make it more skill based (lower projectile speed etc)

 

EDIT - added Single Target DPS to graph

Edited June 10, 2014 by notionphil

[fatpig84]

i have pretty much every possibly overpowered gun in my arsenal and i have to be honest i cant see how "good" the boltor prime when i got tons more weapons just as deadly.

I can even run a HC plus shred midrange latron prime that goes to 28k dps vs a 26k dps boltor prime with hc n shred too.

Both on void setup of course.

Or my marelok which breaks 30k dps if i stop status modding it.

Heck burston p n symbaris makes the boltor p weak by comparision as well.

So in terms of damage n numbers, i simply cannot fathom why is Boltor Prime so highly regarded. Maybe ease of use ?

But know this even if it gets a damage reduction, people will just head to the next "op" weapon.

Oh well.

[notionphil]

i have pretty much every possibly overpowered gun in my arsenal and i have to be honest i cant see how "good" the boltor prime when i got tons more weapons just as deadly.

I can even run a HC plus shred midrange latron prime that goes to 28k dps vs a 26k dps boltor prime with hc n shred too.

Both on void setup of course.

Or my marelok which breaks 30k dps if i stop status modding it.

Heck burston p n symbaris makes the boltor p weak by comparision as well.

So in terms of damage n numbers, i simply cannot fathom why is Boltor Prime so highly regarded. Maybe ease of use

 

yep. its ease of use.

 

Burston P, Sybaris, Synapse, Amphrex, Brakk, Phage, Marelok all are 'skill' weapons. They absolutely melt faces if you use them "well". They each have a weakness - If you miss, you are punished. Or if you don't judge the range, you are punished. Or if you waste ammo you are punished. Or if you don't count lead in mag you are punished.

 

Boltor Prime is just a 100% balanced, click-to-kill death machine. The travel time is negligible. It even has bolts which end up pinning targets and thus dealing potential group damage.

 

Thats the issue. Boltor P dmg is fine, its just too easy to use.

Edited June 9, 2014 by notionphil

[Cursor]

snip

 

You didn't offend me at all, but I just think you're wrong in your assessment of what truth is. Fair enough, you might be an anthropologist or whatever and this is your field of study, and in that case perhaps we could discuss human behavior and prioritization, but as Notionphil said, part of human societal structure is the relinquishing of power and control for personal or communal benefit. Perpetuating a power creep only hurts us as players.

 

I'm sorry if I twisted your words, I'm assuming you're referring to my injection of "power." However, you did conflate the concepts of money and control, which as I said before do not necessarily correlate, and thus shifted the core of the argument.

 

True enough, me saying you've acted arrogantly is opinion. But of course, my obvious response to that is you could easily change my opinion by changing the way you present your argument, it's not at all something out of your hands.

 

snip

 

Perhaps I'm just revealing the cynic that I am, every time DE makes a decision that bewilders me, I can see the glint of money in their eyes driving it. I don't dislike them as a company, but many of the decisions they make I can't see as justified without considering monetization.

 

I was not saying that the Strun, which as you said is a rather entry level weapon, should be as strong as a prime weapon like the Boar Prime, but it should at least be useful in some respect. The go-to semi-automatic shotgun. Yet the Strun offers no reason at all to use it against the Boar prime, which beats it in every area, except for a mere 2 damage per shot.

 

This part is a bit indefensible, but I don't like the gap because I don't like weapons being useless, or for things I like to give me no reason to use them. Spectra is my favorite example. I love Spectra. I think Spectra is beautiful and fun and cool. Yet Spectra is one of the weakest guns in the game. Even the Lato was its own kind of fun, a good and reliable semi-automatic pistol, not a handcanon nor a woodchipper, but DE nerfed it some patches ago. They nerfed the first gun you get in the game. What possible reason could there be for this other than to get you to spend as little time as possible with one of the only free weapons you'll have?

 

I think rank 10 is a bit dramatic, as I only recently surpassed that and have nearly 800 hours under my belt (probably passed that mark around the 600). That is an absolutely absurd amount of time to require of players to access content.

 

I think a big point here is that you and I disagree about Mastery. I hate it, I want it to mean less or just go away, because it's just one more grindstone for the player. It doesn't even mean what was originally intended anymore, which was to give the player some time to wait and get comfortable with the game before using something advanced. Now it's content gating.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Cursor

[Valiant]

Don't even try and tell me that Furax still has it's place in Warframe, or Bronco, or Hind, or Supra. They all have been reduced to mastery fodder because of weapons like Boltor Prime.

Those weapons were mastery fodder for a long time before Boltor Prime appeared, and additional weapons.

 

I'm neutral on the issue of the Boltor Prime but rather have nerfing something (to a possible extreme) surely certain weapons either need to be buffed to a reasonable level or just left alone; as they serve a purpose by being a stepping stone.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Naith

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

-snip-

Again your points are logically sound. I can understand why someone would think that way.

When you say useless, that's usually the jargon of the pure DPS mentality. Honestly when someone drops maxed heavy caliber or vicious spread along with the other usual max damage mods in their respective guns, they're overkilling most of the game's content.

I actually went back to forma my old guns (recently dropped 5 formas on the regular braton) and have my hek forma'd too. I did the hek after the Strun Wraith came out. I did the Braton after the Boltor Prime came out and right about when the Sybaris was released. Why? I like how those guns look and sound lol.

I have reload mods on my Boltor Prime because I can afford to. The strength of the gun is good enough so I don't have to max it out damage wise. I can actually build it so it feels good to use.

It's not 100% necessary to look at this game from a DPS perspective. It's nice to be aware of the numbers and they're an invaluable tool, but as I mentioned earlier, I don't really see 100% of the players running around with Boltor Primes.

Rank 10 is good in my opinion. 800 hours is great! It shows you're a committed/dedicated player! You should be rewarded and I'm sure you'd perform very well in almost all the content this game has to offer and that is why I believe it is only at this point that people should have the very very best weapons.

I still find allot of players around rank 6-7 not being able to handle the tougher content and lacking in team-work.

Asking the devs to balance according to mastery to the current max at 16 WOULD in fact be insane. Not many people want to grind all those weapons. (I have been Rank 16 for quite some time now, but still I know it's not for everyone.)

Anyways we're both logical people and we have our points, which is clear.

Also yeah... I can agree the Spectra is TERRIBAD. I'm also pissed about the Flux Rifle too. However asking for buffs on those should be done in a different topic/thread.

Have a good day dude.

XD

Edited June 9, 2014 by sushidubya

[Cwierz]

This is a fair point to explain why people don't WANT the boltor prime to be balanced with other weapons. However it has nothing to do with whether or not it SHOULD be balanced with other weapons.

 

Humans want power. Great. But guess what? We have given up our power to elected officials and law enforcement because we know that we aren't terribly effective at each running our own little countries independantly. We'd make some pretty bad decisions if we all lived in Notionphil land and Bloodarmoredville. We tried that, it was called the state of nature.

 

How'd it work? Not so much. Ask this guy.

 

Similarly here, yes, no one likes their 'power' taken away (aka nerfed). However, the point of balancing is to ensure that multiple weapons/frames/powers are equally attractive to players - if one is the "obvious choice" because it's simply hands down better than everything else, it ends up being the only one used.

 

This means the game gets boring more quickly because everyone is RhinoOrNova/Boltor /Brakk/ Dragon Nikana. No matter whether or not they know it, you players get bored more quickly when that is the only logical option for you to run in an extended portion of the game's content. Thus they don't play as much. Or buy as many new weapons (bc as you said, who wants a worse weapon?). So guess who ends up losing?

 

We all do.

Once again, extremely intelligent post, congrats.

I fully agree, and probably could not have worded it better.

[Dwagon]

As long as it's not "crippled beyond useability", I'm perfectly fine with a nerf.

*shrugs*

[Cursor]

snip

 

Perhaps not completely useless, that maybe have been a bit of hyperbole, but many weapons simply don't compare to our newer stuff, and with things following the trend they're on, more and more weapons will become obsolete, deadweight content. Even something like Lex, which was once the king of pistols, can't even compare to newer weapons, and is just a pain to bring along on mission.

 

The thing about forma-ing weapons is that you can do that to newer stuff too, but assuming the game is balanced to finite content, I suppose that's kind of a silver lining? Sorta?

 

Oh, dude, I always bring reload speed mods. I refuse not to. I need them. I'm also very fast to bring stabilizing mods and mutation mods because some weapons really, really need them.

 

Dude, confession time. I hate that I've played 800 hours. Looking back, I don't even know how it happened, I did not expect Warframe to be basically my most played game. It just feels like this nightmarish time vortex where I just do the same stuff over and over and all I have to show for it is more shiny guns to do it all over again. I've come very close to uninstalling several times, and the only thing that stops me is my hope that things will turn up, because Warframe does have its charms and I think DE is a company that is very capable of having good ideas.

 

Yeah, I definitely see your angle. Power creep just really worries me, and I hate just being artificially pushed from one gun to the next, which is basically what happens.

 

Spectra breaks my heart, it and Flux (although Flux manages to be presentable at least). But yes, you're right.

 

And the same to you.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Cursor

[Nagisawa]

The real issue is that the weapons in general either need buffing, or enemies to be debuffed across the board.

[Vaskadar]

The real issue is that the weapons in general either need buffing, or enemies to be debuffed across the board.

 

You're oversimplifying it, and you've got only half of it right.

 

Top-tier weapons need to be reeled in to below the ludicrous 15k DPS line (when fully kitted out). Bottom-tier weapons need to be brought up to the 9k DPS line (when fully kitted out) so that enemies can start getting balanced according to these parameters.

 

Balance 1.0, or, the elimination of power creep by instilling guidelines for new weapons in the game and adding downsides to them. Tons of content, but you only ever see a few weapons being used at higher levels/late game.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Vaskadar

[Arblarg]

Today I learned that no gun is different at all, that theres only one faction, theres only one game type, the boltor prime is quick / easy to obtain outside of trading and that absolutely no weapon can out DPS the boltor prime.

 

Its also sad that this forum doesn't support sarcasm tags, because the entire sentence above has it.

 

I have a boltor prime, its not my used weapon by a mile. I have and actively use different weapons for different situations, for the very same reason I bought more frame slots and have 10 frames. The boltor prime is high end of average, but it falls short of god tier by a large margin. It rewards bad play / skill, I'll give you that, but it most certainly doesn't obsolete 130 weapons.