I Think It's Time Boltor Prime Stops Rendering ~130 Weapons Obsolete

[XxMAGGOTxX]

I agree with you...there not many weapons that can handle high level enemies...

Thank you, it's nice to see more and more people with sense. It's pretty weak to nerf something that can handle T4. If we were to do all this "nerfing" in real life, we would slowly regress to cavemen. <-- me trying to be funny.

 

But no, in all seriousness, it's a weapon that actually handles T4 void past 10 minutes of survival. Everything else drops off. If we nerf these weapons, enimies will HAVE to be nerfed as well, as nothing will be able to stand up to them. Melee in this game isn't as strong as it should be (considering the risks) but the solution isn't to nerf it further.

 

Boltor Prime has set a base. So did the Soma. We see a pattern here.... (Soma, T3. Boltor Prime, T4) It's only a matter of time before some others are brought up to speed.

[xkillo32]

Thank you, it's nice to see more and more people with sense. It's pretty weak to nerf something that can handle T4. If we were to do all this "nerfing" in real life, we would slowly regress to cavemen. <-- me trying to be funny.

 

But no, in all seriousness, it's a weapon that actually handles T4 void past 10 minutes of survival. Everything else drops off. If we nerf these weapons, enimies will HAVE to be nerfed as well, as nothing will be able to stand up to them. Melee in this game isn't as strong as it should be (considering the risks) but the solution isn't to nerf it further.

 

Boltor Prime has set a base. So did the Soma. We see a pattern here.... (Soma, T3. Boltor Prime, T4) It's only a matter of time before some others are brought up to speed.

soma can go t4

attica can go t4 with crit build too http://goo.gl/jR4Prt

so can latron prime

latron wraith

dread

paris prime

amprex

synapse

[vaugahn]

you don't have to aim with the latron prime either,but if you do it will pump out alot more dps

 

If you don't aim it will fall short in terms of damage. This falls under risk versus reward, as I mentioned above. It's risky, because if you're not a good shot you can't deal as much damage. It's rewarding, because if you are a good shot you can deal massive damage. 

 

But no, in all seriousness, it's a weapon that actually handles T4 void past 10 minutes of survival. Everything else drops off. If we nerf these weapons, enimies will HAVE to be nerfed as well, as nothing will be able to stand up to them. Melee in this game isn't as strong as it should be (considering the risks) but the solution isn't to nerf it further.

 

No, they won't. That's silly to even say. 

 

Infinite content is supposed to kill you. You're not supposed to be there forever. In fact, the devs have specifically stated they don't want to balance for it. And there's plenty of stuff that can go to T4 and doesn't trivialize content. 

Edited September 30, 2014 by vaugahn

[xkillo32]

If you don't aim it will fall short in terms of damage. This falls under risk versus reward, as I mentioned above. It's risky, because if you're not a good shot you can't deal as much damage. It's rewarding, because if you are a good shot you can deal massive damage. 

 

but it deals more damage as the boltor prime WITHOUT aiming

if you do aim for head shots then u would probably get like 40k-50k dps

on the other hand

if boltor prime aims for headshots u would get around 30k-40k dps

[Draciusen]

I'm still seeing the BP put up larger numbers, and you still don't have to aim with it. Carry on.

Clearly you're not a fan of the design of the Boltor Prime, which is spray and pray and kill everything. Which from what I've heard, is hardly what happens in T4 missions; you simply don't mow down enemies with ease there. Some people like that, some people don't. Is it the Boltor's fault for being easy to use or is it the Latron's fault for being more difficult? Both have the same killing potential in damage more or less, Boltor just does it easier.

 

Honestly the only way to fix this is to change the mechanics of the Boltor, not the damage. Because even with the damage lowered, I sincerely think it'll still be capable of blind spray-and-pray to kill, it just takes a bit longer to achieve the kill. I remember playing another third person shooter where there was a submachine gun that did excessive amounts of damage (Think Soma on Mercury), it had a huge magazine size, decent capacity, and a short reload speed, it seemed like the perfect gun.

 

Except it had one major drawback: accuracy. If you fired it in short bursts it was pretty dang accurate, like a Burston Prime, but the longer you held it down to fire the spread increased dramatically, to a point where you couldn't hit anything more than 10 feet in front of you. And it didn't instantly reset when you stopped and started firing again, the accuracy was slowly regained over time as the weapon 'cooled off'. It punished mindless spray and pray but was still capable of it at close ranges. If the Boltor Prime needs to be tuned down, this is the way to go.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Draciusen

[vaugahn]

but it deals more damage as the boltor prime WITHOUT aiming

if you do aim for head shots then u would probably get like 40k-50k dps

on the other hand

if boltor prime aims for headshots u would get around 30k-40k dps

 

...not at all

 

Having used both those weapons, with builds almost identical to the ones posted earlier, I can tell you that you have to aim with a Latron Prime to deal comparable damage. 

 

Clearly you're not a fan of the design of the Boltor Prime, which is spray and pray and kill everything. Which from what I've heard, is hardly what happens in T4 missions; you simply don't mow down enemies with ease there. Some people like that, some people don't. Is it the Boltor's fault for being easy to use or is it the Latron's fault for being more difficult? Both have the same killing potential in damage more or less, Boltor just does it easier..

 

There's nothing wrong with spray and pray. The problem is with spray and pray shots dealing more damage than marksman rifle shots on the same body hit. Generally, spray weapons have a slightly lower damage to compensate for rapid fire and large magazines, though that is for some reason not the case here.

Edited September 30, 2014 by vaugahn

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

This is my 2 cents on the boltor p, outstanding weapon, thou doesnt scale well end game t4 in terms of ammo, unless u spam ammo pods, which isnt cost efficient for the average game.   With that being said i think it needs its status chance crippled to balance it,so its just straight up base damage dealer.                                                                                     

[crafturtoemc]

Thank you, it's nice to see more and more people with sense. It's pretty weak to nerf something that can handle T4. If we were to do all this "nerfing" in real life, we would slowly regress to cavemen. <-- me trying to be funny.

 

But no, in all seriousness, it's a weapon that actually handles T4 void past 10 minutes of survival. Everything else drops off. If we nerf these weapons, enimies will HAVE to be nerfed as well, as nothing will be able to stand up to them. Melee in this game isn't as strong as it should be (considering the risks) but the solution isn't to nerf it further.

 

Boltor Prime has set a base. So did the Soma. We see a pattern here.... (Soma, T3. Boltor Prime, T4) It's only a matter of time before some others are brought up to speed.

 

I can kill in t4s with soma or boltor prime....I think amprex is even better than boltor prime for t4s 

[Seanjuju]

Oh, that's not why it needs to be toned down. If it could just handle high level enemies that would be no problem. There are lots of weapons that can handle high level enemies and don't need to be nerfed.

 

The problem is that in PvE, balance is measured in terms of relative power and risk versus reward. A weapon has to feel viable compared to other weapons in its tier, and high-risk weapons have to give higher rewards. That's pretty much how it goes. The reason the Boltor Prime is a problem is because it breaks both of those principles, by a significant margin no less.

 

It doesn't even need to be nerfed with fire. A simple 10-point reduction to its impact damage would more than suffice. Maybe a small fire rate decrease, but that's not really important. 

What I'm hearing is that it isn't rare enough or the parts come from missions that are too easy. What do you mean by weapons in its tier though?

[vaugahn]

What I'm hearing is that it isn't rare enough or the parts come from missions that are too easy. What do you mean by weapons in its tier though?

 

Theoretical tier. It doesn't actually exist, it's just a device I used to measure weapon balance. 

 

All the guns that function at a similar level would be considered in the same tier, ideally. Every weapon in a tier would feel viable compared to every other weapon in that tier, accounting for playstyle differences of course. 

 

This is simply me grouping up similarly-performing weapons, but you can kind of see DE moving towards this, ever so slightly. 

[HolidayPi3]

If people want the Boltor P to deal the damage it does, so be it.

But make it more difficult to attain its ridiculous DPS. For a weapon that fires huge, chunky, meaty bolts of doom, I would think there would be some insane recoil attached to it.

But right now, there's NO recoil.

People don't complain about the Sybaris or Latron as much because their huge damage comes at the cost of their ease of use. I don't think the Boltor should be any exception.

[Arabaxus]

If you don't aim it will fall short in terms of damage. This falls under risk versus reward, as I mentioned above. It's risky, because if you're not a good shot you can't deal as much damage. It's rewarding, because if you are a good shot you can deal massive damage. 

 

 

No, they won't. That's silly to even say. 

 

Infinite content is supposed to kill you. You're not supposed to be there forever. In fact, the devs have specifically stated they don't want to balance for it. And there's plenty of stuff that can go to T4 and doesn't trivialize content. 

 

 

Let me try to understand what you're saying.

 

"Only weapons with a risk/reward feature should be able to pump out top tier damage output. If a weapon is easy to handle it cannot pump out as much damage as a weapon that is harder to handle because there has to be a skill factor"

 

How about no. Boltor Prime performs fine as it is, relative to current shop/clan-tech weaponry. Meanwhile, the skill component you ask for is already clearly present in our precision weapons, Dread, Paris, Latron P/W, etc, because they will plainly outperform Boltor Prime when you use them properly. Boltor Prime acts as a weapon to be used if a player doesn't wish to deal with a skill component, which, contrary to popular belief, they have a right to not deal with a skill component, and still be competitive, though not outperform, weapons with a skill component. 

 

 

People don't complain about the Sybaris or Latron as much because their huge damage comes at the cost of their ease of use. I don't think the Boltor should be any exception.

 

No, people don't complain about precision weapons because their ridiculous damage potential isn't immediately obvious because they're not easy to pick up and use like Boltor Prime. Especially if many a player blindly follows a DPS calculator and the numbers that it spits out. For some reason a weapon with respectable damage output and ease of use is synonymous with over-powered to many a player who ventures the forums. 

Edited September 30, 2014 by Arabaxus

[HolidayPi3]

No, people don't complain about precision weapons because their ridiculous damage potential isn't immediately obvious because they're not easy to pick up and use like Boltor Prime. 

Pretty much what I just said, or at least intended to. People don't complain about those guns because attaining their DPS takes more effort than using the game's equivalent of an MS paint eraser. This is fine.

But when you have a gun that deals out equivalent damage without that extra step of being more difficult to pick up, where's the balance between them? The bolt travel time is inconsequential since you can just spam them all over the screen, and you'll never have to worry about running out because ammo restores exist.

Edited September 30, 2014 by HolidayPi3

[Arabaxus]

Pretty much what I just said, or at least intended to. People don't complain about those guns because attaining their DPS takes more effort than using the game's equivalent of an MS paint eraser. This is fine.

But when you have a gun that deals out equivalent damage without that extra step of being more difficult to pick up, where's the balance between them? The bolt travel time is inconsequential since you can just spam them all over the screen, and you'll never have to worry about running out because ammo restores exist.

 

Again, it doesn't deal equivalent damage. The weapons with a skill component have greater damage output assuming you are half capable of utilizing the skill component. You don't need to hit every single shot at max fire-rate on the head to outperform your generic assault rifle. However, aiming isn't something some players don't want to deal with, and again, they shouldn't be forced to to be competitive in terms of damage output.

[shut]

you should check the multishot box and the critical box

those do wonders

 

latron prime:

28532.38 burst dps

15228.64 sustained dps

 

boltor prime: ( not including criticals cause those don't really matter)

 

25118.47 burst dps

16525.31 sustained dps

 

It may be worth noting that the Latron Prime thing assumes that you're firing 5.46 shots per second. Unless you're running a macro with 60 FPS at all times, that simply isn't going to happen. 

 

If you want to be able to come close to BoltorP's DPS at a "human" level of manual button-clicking, then you're going to have to go for headshots-- which are only going to be critting about a third of a time anyways. It's a lot more work and a lot more dice-rolling for just about the same overall result (ammo efficiency aside).

 

 

OT:

I don't mind that the Boltor Prime is a beast in DPS, but what bothers me is that it's a beast in just about everything that you'd want to use a gun for-- while being ludicrously easy to use.

 

Since the Boltor Prime has been the iconic "hold M1 for DPS without relying on crit mods" weapon for quite some time now, nerfing the DPS would annoy the crap out of players (since, when you think about it, the DPS is the only major thing that the BoltorP has over the regular Boltor). Hell, I'd get annoyed, and I'd restrain myself somewhat from spending platinum on weapons in the future because of the risk of having its very concept change on me. And I don't even use the BoltorP.

I think it should have the same effectiveness that it does now, but at the cost of being more difficult to use than a typical full-auto gun-- either from something like decreased max ammo (forces players to either swap playstyles on the fly or to aim more carefully to maintain DPS) or slower bolts that fall more quickly (increased-but-manageable difficulty in aiming at longer ranges). Obviously not the most creative of changes, but you get my drift.

Edited September 30, 2014 by SortaRandom

[HolidayPi3]

Again, it doesn't deal equivalent damage. The weapons with a skill component have greater damage output assuming you are half capable of utilizing the skill component. You don't need to hit every single shot at max fire-rate on the head to outperform your generic assault rifle. However, aiming isn't something some players don't want to deal with, and again, they shouldn't be forced to to be competitive in terms of damage output.

I believe you meant to say "aiming is something some players don't want to deal with"? In which case I agree, you shouldn't force precision weapons down someone's throat to be competitive.

But precision weapons only really shine vs the Boltor when endless T4 comes into play and the Boltor stops 1-shotting everything and precision weapons stop over-killing everything. And while this probably sounds like a super cop-out, but I personally don't think that endless T4 is where we should be setting our baseline.

I appreciate your viewpoint, but I'm still convinced that for what the Boltor P offers, its counterbalance is too slight. I don't think it does too much damage, I just think its drawback-to-damage ratio is strange. Hence why if any changes were made, I'd rather it not be to its raw damage, but rather to its recoil so you can't just hold down M1 for all 60 rounds.

Edit: post above this one sums it up IMO

Edited September 30, 2014 by HolidayPi3

[HollowExistence]

just mastery rank 10 and disallow use for those who do not have reached that level yet. *maniacal laugh* !

srsly do IT ! or nerf it!

its not really that good in high end missions - dread or paris any day over boltor

[ArgonTheFox]

Boltor Prime's model is enough to put me off it. Forget it's mechanics and stigma.

 

But on a serious note, it does disappoint me. I like the fact that theres enough weapons in the game to cater to people's individual playstyles, yet people feel obligated to use this trainwreck of a weapon. I'd rather keep my self respect and dignity than use that thing.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

I most definitely agree that the Boltor Prime, among pretty much every other weapon in the game - Hell, scratch that, the entire game needs a rebalance. Frames, mods, weapons, everything.

 

As for many of the people in this thread, this kind of community behavior is absolutely repulsive. Just as bad as god damn CoD kids.

Edited September 30, 2014 by BizarreFetalChimpanzee

[-OMS-Spriggan.EX]

I remember DE claiming that want to balance around level 30-40.

What i do not get is how they will balance around it without removing the forma option or corrupted mods and create a rework on those two factors so do not ends being a nerf but a balance?

I find it pretty hard to balance with those two ways happening in-game (Lots of forma options and corrupted mods)

Peace.

[Oriviagene]

it's entirely your choice to use or not to use boltor prime

And it's not rendering other weapons useless

U think it's rendering other weapon useless? Then don't use it

Use other weapons that u think best for you

Not ranting on forum like this...lawl

I'm boltor prime user as well and the fact that it's strong is true and so what?

Your title is as same as asking for nerf to boltor prime and I truly hate words nerf especially to my main arsenal

And we're not "corrupted with power" it's natural for us that we always want the best for our arsenal

Or maybe you never preparing yourself with your best arsenal on high lvl mission?

Hahaha live your live not to care about others problem

Unless u can kill your teammate with boltor prime I don't see any problem with this toy...

[crafturtoemc]

it's entirely your choice to use or not to use boltor prime

And it's not rendering other weapons useless

U think it's rendering other weapon useless? Then don't use it

Use other weapons that u think best for you

Not ranting on forum like this...lawl

I'm boltor prime user as well and the fact that it's strong is true and so what?

Your title is as same as asking for nerf to boltor prime and I truly hate words nerf especially to my main arsenal

And we're not "corrupted with power" it's natural for us that we always want the best for our arsenal

Or maybe you never preparing yourself with your best arsenal on high lvl mission?

Hahaha live your live not to care about others problem

Unless u can kill your teammate with boltor prime I don't see any problem with this toy...

 

I agree with this.... if they think its rendering other weapon useless then dont use it...true :D If DE wan't to nerf boltor prime...nerf latron primes and soma crit multiplier :D.... i think just add a mastery rank of 7 for boltor prime

[Tali]

I agree with this.... if they think its rendering other weapon useless then dont use it...true :D If DE wan't to nerf boltor prime...nerf latron primes and soma crit multiplier :D.... i think just add a mastery rank of 7 for boltor prime

id say 10+ instead

[RoninJed]

I am kinda surprised this discussion hasn't been locked...good to see it's still going. Maybe someone already said this but here goes...If everyone hates it when DE nerfs a weapon then the only solution is to (slightly) buff all the other weapons so boltor prime doesn't seem so over powered;)

Edited September 30, 2014 by RoninJed

[OverlordMcGeek]

still going to keep up with the idea of even prime weapons being mastery locked like the ones in the market.