Should The Boltor Prime Be Nerfed?

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

 

Why?

 

Thats wrong

 

Forma and potatoes are meant to be used on every weapon

 

If it wasnt it wouldnt have the option

 

And even if this were true theres no way players would just not use potatoes at the very least

 

Theres no reasoning behind this post at all

 

"Almost"

 

Right

 

Every weapon should be balanced around lvl 45 without potatoes or forma so that anyone that does use a potato or forma can steamroll then come onto the forums and complain about the lack of challenges

 

Can i tell this guy his opinion is wrong yet or will people still stick me on it even when he is?

1. Because people need to learn to stop wanting things they don't need.

 

2. Example: Acrid in Damage 1.0, it was good enough without forma, so a significant number of people did not forma the heck out of it. Of course, the Acrid was also extremely OP, but that's how weapon tiering should work, the threshold for people to feel satisfied without forma just needs to be lowered. I have no idea how to do that however.

 

3. Seems like it's impossible to avoid being picked out for semantics.

 

4. That's not what I meant, should have been more clear about that. I mean that weapons should be balanced based on what level range they stop being effective without forma or potatoes with the optimal build.

 

For example:

 

Mk1-Braton starts to fall off in damage past Saturn. All weapons within the same tier as the Mk1-Braton should follow the same pattern.

 

Hikou starts to fall off in damage past Pluto. All weapons within the same tier as the Hikou should follow the same pattern.

 

Boltor Prime starts to fall off in damage in T3. All Prime Weapons should follow the same pattern.

 

 

Crit weapons will need separate benchmarks though, since they require 2 extra mods in order to start showing their true capabilities.

[Arabaxus]

That's subjective though, which makes it a poor downside.

 

 

Yes, do continue. Because none of those weapons beat the Boltor Prime in sustained DPS, and all of them are either ammo efficient or require headshots.

 

There's is literally no downside to a Boltor Prime. "High damage but requires extreme accuracy" is a downside. "High damage but requires careful ammo management" is also a downside. "high damage and requires no careful aiming or ammo management" is not a downside.

 

No downside is the point of a generic assault rifle. Standardized damage, no notable downfalls. All the weapons I have listed sacrifice something for a perk Boltor Prime does not have. Last I checked weapon balance was about checks and balances, and they are clearly present here. However, due to ease of use, much like in other games, generic automatic weapons will always be the most popular. Besides, my points are not subjective, they are based on actual damage numbers.

 

For the argument that goes for Boltor Prime headshots, note that all of my listed weapons short of Amprex do not need the use of Heavy Caliber, and can still match Boltor Prime's damage through headshots. The reason Boltor Prime is the user-friendly weapon is because you don't need to aim for headshots. 

Edited September 28, 2014 by Arabaxus

[vaugahn]

No downside is the point of a generic assault rifle. Standardized damage, no notable downfalls. All the weapons I have listed sacrifice something for a perk Boltor Prime does not have. Last I checked weapon balance was about checks and balances, and they are clearly present here. However, due to ease of use, much like in other games, generic automatic weapons will always be the most popular. Besides, my points are not subjective, they are based on actual damage numbers.

 

For the argument that goes for Boltor Prime headshots, note that all of my listed weapons short of Amprex do not need the use of Heavy Caliber, and can still match Boltor Prime's damage through headshots. The reason Boltor Prime is the user-friendly weapon is because you don't need to aim for headshots. 

 

The check in most games to a generic automatic is slightly lower damage than a specialized weapon, and less flexibility at very short and very long ranges.

 

The Boltor Prime outperforms shotguns at close range and marksman rifles at long range. It also outdamages both.

[Arabaxus]

The check in most games to a generic automatic is slightly lower damage than a specialized weapon, and less flexibility at very short and very long ranges.

 

The Boltor Prime outperforms shotguns at close range and marksman rifles at long range. It also outdamages both.

 

Boltor Prime only outdamages and outperforms Precision Weapons if you blindly follow a DPS calculator. I like to speak from my experience with Paris Prime and Latron Prime versus Boltor Prime, all with multiple Forma and completely finished builds. 

 

Shotguns are a moot point, because basically everything outperforms them at close range if you compare weapons of the same tier.

[Sniper-X-3]

I am Fine with the Boltor prime but it does need to be nerfed a little.

[Azawarau]

1. Because people need to learn to stop wanting things they don't need.

 

2. Example: Acrid in Damage 1.0, it was good enough without forma, so a significant number of people did not forma the heck out of it. Of course, the Acrid was also extremely OP, but that's how weapon tiering should work, the threshold for people to feel satisfied without forma just needs to be lowered. I have no idea how to do that however.

 

3. Seems like it's impossible to avoid being picked out for semantics.

 

4. That's not what I meant, should have been more clear about that. I mean that weapons should be balanced based on what level range they stop being effective without forma or potatoes with the optimal build.

 

For example:

 

Mk1-Braton starts to fall off in damage past Saturn. All weapons within the same tier as the Mk1-Braton should follow the same pattern.

 

Hikou starts to fall off in damage past Pluto. All weapons within the same tier as the Hikou should follow the same pattern.

 

Boltor Prime starts to fall off in damage in T3. All Prime Weapons should follow the same pattern.

 

 

Crit weapons will need separate benchmarks though, since they require 2 extra mods in order to start showing their true capabilities.

1. So we shouldnt try to become as powerful as we can be? Why should we gimp ourselves instead of DE putting up adequate content for the power theyve given us? If i can make a frame or weapon i like mor powerful i will as will most players

 

NOONE SHOULD HAVE TO HURT THEMSELVES JUST TO MATCH CONTENT IN ANY SITUATION EVER

 

Thats DEs job

 

2. Im calling BS

 

There are always tons of players who level weapons even when broken already.

 

Exhibit A. Boltor prime

 

I rest my case

 

3. If you didnt want to argue semantics you shouldnt have brough opinions about why people shouldnt forma or potato into this as if they wont

 

Its not solving an issue

 

4.Boltor prime doesnt fall off at T 3

 

Maybe unpotatoed but if thats trhe case thats still no way to balance it

 

With a potato its more than enough for T 4s

 

With forma itll carry you longer than any weapon in the game

 

I dont have a problem with the power of the weapon itself. its the power relative to other weapons thats the issue

 

Also basing things on unpatatoed unformad versions will make bad balance

 

Weapons like the Tysis and Amprex and Torid dont really shine without forma

 

They make larger leaps and jumps than other weapons with the utility gained

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

1. So we shouldnt try to become as powerful as we can be? Why should we gimp ourselves instead of DE putting up adequate content for the power theyve given us? If i can make a frame or weapon i like mor powerful i will as will most players

 

NOONE SHOULD HAVE TO HURT THEMSELVES JUST TO MATCH CONTENT IN ANY SITUATION EVER

 

 

NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO HURT YOURSELF TO MAKE YOURSELF OVERLY POWERFUL EITHER

 

Forma is optional, not using forma is not supposed to put one at a disadvantage. On the contrary, using forma gives an additional advantage over the normal performance for that weapon. Using forma is not the normal, expected performance of a weapon, therefore not using it is not a disadvantage in any way.

 

The Boltor Prime works without forma. If someone decide to go and level it 6 times in order to put maxxed mods on it, then that's their choice No one's forcing them to do it. But they didn't have to do that. All they did was hurt themselves by wasting time formaing the thing when they didn't need it.

[xkillo32]

Amprex is short range and really ammo inefficient...

 

With critical delay its not so bad  but the range loss is deadly

 

A boltor that headshots for a single target should be able to beat out a latron prime nee?

you are supposed to tap the trigger

not hold it down

[Azawarau]

NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO HURT YOURSELF TO MAKE YOURSELF OVERLY POWERFUL EITHER

 

Forma is optional, not using forma is not supposed to put one at a disadvantage. On the contrary, using forma gives an additional advantage over the normal performance for that weapon. Using forma is not the normal, expected performance of a weapon, therefore not using it is not a disadvantage in any way.

 

The Boltor Prime works without forma. If someone decide to go and level it 6 times in order to put maxxed mods on it, then that's their choice No one's forcing them to do it. But they didn't have to do that. All they did was hurt themselves by wasting time formaing the thing when they didn't need it.

Youre suggesting putting the game in a position where trivializing content is as easy as leveling a single weapon a few times

 

Youre also forgetting that being overly powerful isnt the fault of the player

 

Thats the power creep DE has set on us

 

Its DEs job to make sure that even for an all 8 formad frame and weapon set that theres always a challenge

 

They have not

 

If you enjoy gimping yourself thats fine

 

But dont expect others to hold themselves back just because the game lacks suitable content

 

you are supposed to tap the trigger

not hold it down

I do

 

Its still ammo inefficient when things get to the point that they arent dying instantly or near instantly

 

It has a bad habit of only really being ammo efficient in crowds as well

 

When many single targets come by youre wasting ammo

 

I have an Amprex with 4-5 forma on it and Critical delay to make up for the ammo economy by raising DPH and lower fire rate

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

Youre suggesting putting the game in a position where trivializing content is as easy as leveling a single weapon a few times

 

Which wouldn't be a problem if forma was as rare as it used to be. Clan-tech and dojos can use something else that drops from voids. The forma used to buff weapons should go back to having a 0.3% drop chance.

[Azawarau]

Which wouldn't be a problem if forma was as rare as it used to be. Clan-tech and dojos can use something else that drops from voids. The forma used to buff weapons should go back to having a 0.3% drop chance.

No amount of effort or RNG justifies trivializing the game

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

No amount of effort or RNG justifies trivializing the game

If people put the effort into it, then why can't they be the Warrior-Gods we were promised to be? In all games with item-based progression, there is the option for players to be overpowered and enjoy mowing down enemies like blades of grass.

 

And weapons are definitely not the main reason why this game is so easy. Of course the game is going to feel easy if the only objective is to kill things, and the things that you have to kill can't do anything about it. Nerfing weapons would just lead to enemies being even spongier and do nothing to fix Warframe's stale and repetitive gameplay.

[Azawarau]

If people put the effort into it, then why can't they be the Warrior-Gods we were promised to be? In all games with item-based progression, there is the option for players to be overpowered and enjoy mowing down enemies like blades of grass.

 

And weapons are definitely not the main reason why this game is so easy. Of course the game is going to feel easy if the only objective is to kill things, and the things that you have to kill can't do anything about it. Nerfing weapons would just lead to enemies being even spongier and do nothing to fix Warframe's stale and repetitive gameplay.

That option is there

 

Its called mercury

 

Enjoy

 

Oh and by the way

 

Why do we have to be grossly overpowered to be warrior gods?

 

I can press 4 and trivialize enemies at 45 or wipe a room clean with a cast or two and feel like a warrior god

 

What makes you feel that way is subjective and unless you have anything to back it up theres no support to it

 

Again the option to hit mercury is always there

[Mesyra]

make it MR 8-9 instead of MR 0. It doesnt get awesome til 3 forma. same with soma.

[Azawarau]

make it MR 8-9 instead of MR 0. It doesnt get awesome til 3 forma. same with soma.

The soma is actually fairly strong without forma

 

The boltor is much th same

 

Without forma itll definitely beat out other weapons with forma

 

Its not particularly forma heavy like the amprex or Torid or Tysis can be to get their utilities out

[Oriviagene]

Why don't we stop asking for NERF every single day?????

Ask to BUFF weaker weapons not nerf the strong ones so players won't just pick boltor prime as their first crafted primary

It's natural that players always want the most strongest weapon

As the enemies getting stronger the further we go

It's coz the lack of strong weapons variety

[vaugahn]

It's not DE's fault if people don't think, but rather follow the paradigm set by those before them.

 

I'm not being forceful here - I'm being practical.  I don't have to use the Boltor Prime, and I don't care if others do.  Why do you?

 

This is a terrible argument, no offense intended. We can't just say "oh, it's totally fine if things aren't balanced. We just have to trust people not to abuse unbalanced mechanics."

 

To put it nicely, that's nonsense. We don't run balance on the honor system. Put yourself in John Q. Public's shoes: if you had a choice between a Paris Prime and a Boltor Prime, which would you chose?

[Arabaxus]

This is a terrible argument, no offense intended. We can't just say "oh, it's totally fine if things aren't balanced. We just have to trust people not to abuse unbalanced mechanics."

 

To put it nicely, that's nonsense. We don't run balance on the honor system. Put yourself in John Q. Public's shoes: if you had a choice between a Paris Prime and a Boltor Prime, which would you chose?

 

 

Let's try not to jump off a slippery slope here. Infinite content is not a balance factor, and anyone with half a brain can see that they MK-1 will never be the best at anything. Please, don't even bother using that kind of rhetoric. It contributes nothing to a discussion. 

 

We also don't run balance based on claiming something is overpowered because many people use it. Just because Boltor Prime is more popular doesn't mean it's more powerful than Paris Prime. 

 

Using what most people use to judge if something justifies nerfing is the dumbest suggestion to gauge balance anyone has ever suggested. Most of planet Earth at one time believed the Earth was flat. Does that mean they were right? No. 

[vaugahn]

We also don't run balance based on claiming something is overpowered because many people use it. Just because Boltor Prime is more popular doesn't mean it's more powerful than Paris Prime. 

 

Using what most people use to judge if something justifies nerfing is the dumbest suggestion to gauge balance anyone has ever suggested. Most of planet Earth at one time believed the Earth was flat. Does that mean they were right? No. 

 

You're right, just because something is popular doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. I said as much in another thread just now.

 

However, even if it was the least popular weapon in the game, I would still ask for it to be rebalanced. Its statistical superiority and lack of any balancing factors compared to other weapons of its tier is way out of whack, that's not something anyone can dispute. Ideally, I'd like all prime weapons to be rebalanced. This would involve both buffing and nerfing, naturally. 

[LukeAura]

I'm not being forceful here - I'm being practical.  I don't have to use the Boltor Prime, and I don't care if others do.  Why do you?

People go to games for challenge, and gratification. Warframe makes these two primary objectives polar opposites, more so than most games. If you want to earn the most gratification, getting loot, you have to minimize the challenge, and you can minimize to a point that is way too far removed from the other purpose of playing games.

They could always add in more reasons for players to play the upper planets, but the Boltor Prime will still dominate there. It actually requires Tier 3 and 4 missions in order to even begin to challenge it. 

And because this is a coop game. People are content for other people. Their challenge trivialization starts to affect others who play with them. 

Player oriented Challenge construction doesn't work in all games, and Warframe is too heavily grind oriented to make it work for it.  

 

 

 

People look at the dps numbers and claim that it isn't that much more dps heavy than the Soma, but, the Soma's fire rate is 50% faster, and still deals less dps, meaning its ammo efficiency in comparison is massively weaker. 

[Arabaxus]

You're right, just because something is popular doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. I said as much in another thread just now.

 

However, even if it was the least popular weapon in the game, I would still ask for it to be rebalanced. Its statistical superiority and lack of any balancing factors compared to other weapons of its tier is way out of whack, that's not something anyone can dispute. Ideally, I'd like all prime weapons to be rebalanced. This would involve both buffing and nerfing, naturally. 

 

That's the point of automatic weapons, there isn't really any "balancing factor", aka. check, because it is the baseline for balance and as an automatic rifle it is well rounded.

 

Nerf the Boltor Prime, and to get the highest DPS, you are funneling people into playing Precision Weapons and Amprex, which will hold the highest "tier" of DPS. Players have a right to enjoy their lazy-mode automatic rifles and get the same performance as players who play other weapons, contrary to popular belief. Just because something is easy to use doesn't mean it has to be statistically inferior, as the current Boltor Prime is balanced perfectly with the other "top-tier" weapons.

[LukeAura]

Nerf the Boltor Prime, and to get the highest DPS, you are funneling people into playing Precision Weapons and Amprex, which will hold the highest "tier" of DPS. Players have a right to enjoy their lazy-mode automatic rifles and get the same performance as players who play other weapons, contrary to popular belief. Just because something is easy to use doesn't mean it has to be statistically inferior, as the current Boltor Prime is balanced perfectly with the other "top-tier" weapons.

It's not, first of all.

If the Soma is another 'top tier' weapon, it deals less than half the damage of the Boltor Prime, making it much less ammo efficient for less dps over all.  Mild compensable travel time is nowhere near a counterweight to half damage per bullet. 

The Amprex has a pseudo AoE function, just like the knockback of the Boltor Prime, it's is only slightly better, but not significantly compared to the massive dps and efficiency loss. 

The Phage pays for its power with an incredibly clunky mechanic and limitted range. The Boltor Prime while still being very competitive with it, vastly out ranges it. It's strength is also very dubious due to its continuous nature. 

The Dread is the most competitive to the Boltor Prime, but only reaches that value in a very small subsection of the games scaling most players don't traverse all that often.

It's better than every other top tier weapon. And only just barely because of its ease of use.

It could potentially be balanced by as little as shaving off some damage off the top. Making it 45 damage instead of 55. That would probably do it to balance it to the Soma. I'm just running off of numbers I've crunched in brief here. Travel time and Lower burst+sustained dps, traded off for better efficiency and corpse knockback.

[Arabaxus]

It's not, first of all.

If the Soma is another 'top tier' weapon, it deals less than half the damage of the Boltor Prime, making it much less ammo efficient for less dps over all.  Mild compensable travel time is nowhere near a counterweight to half damage per bullet. 

The Amprex has a pseudo AoE function, just like the knockback of the Boltor Prime, it's is only slightly better, but not significantly compared to the massive dps and efficiency loss. 

The Phage pays for its power with an incredibly clunky mechanic and limitted range. The Boltor Prime while still being very competitive with it, vastly out ranges it. It's strength is also very dubious due to its continuous nature. 

The Dread is the most competitive to the Boltor Prime, but only reaches that value in a very small subsection of the games scaling most players don't traverse all that often.

It's better than every other top tier weapon. And only just barely because of its ease of use.

It could potentially be balanced by as little as shaving off some damage off the top. Making it 45 damage instead of 55. That would probably do it to balance it to the Soma. I'm just running off of numbers I've crunched in brief here. Travel time and Lower burst+sustained dps, traded off for better efficiency and corpse knockback.

 

Soma's a shop weapon and Boltor Prime's a prime weapon that must be farmed and built.

 

Amprex has ridiculous Status, the arguably best innate damage to compliment ridiculous status, and the ability to stun and mass proc status on crowds. Of course Amprex is balanced by having bad range and ammunition economy. If it had the range and economy of a regular assault rifle, it would be ridiculous and violate checks and balances.

 

Again, the comparison of the Phage, a blueprint Clan-tech weapon and a Prime weapon should be limited to clan-tech weapons being at most equal to Prime weapons, because Prime weapons are rarer. You are committing the common mistake of trying to compare common weapons to rare ones and wanting them to be equal. You suggest to balance "[boltor Prime] to the Soma" when there is literally no reason to. The Boltor Prime is leagues more difficult to get than the Soma and is justifiably more powerful. Even in conventional MMO/RPG logic, the rarer, harder to obtain weapons are usually, if not always better, and Warframe is no exception to this rule. Rare weapons are always at least equal to any clan-tech variants in their weapon class, if not better. And because I believe in proving my arguments with evidence, here's a list of some of the weapon tiers:

 

Consider this:

 

Automatic Rifles: The most powerful of them is Boltor Prime.

 

Semi-Automatic Rifles: The most powerful of them is shared between Latron Wraith and Latron Prime

 

Bows: Paris Prime and Dread share the top spot.

 

Shotguns: Boar Prime is on top, arguably equal to Strun Wraith though one is rapid fire and one focuses on more powerful, slower shots.

 

Sniper Rifles: No Orokin Sniper exists.

 

Secondary Shotguns: AKBronco Prime is equal/greater than AKBronco, while Brakk is on top because it is rarer than AKBronco Prime, and the parts cannot be traded. Even when Prime is not on top, the rarity rule is followed and maintained.

 

Single Handed Swords: Dakra Prime is on top as the strongest physical damage sword.

 

Nikana: No Orokin Katana exists

 

Polearm: Orthos Prime is the best physical damage polearm, Serro is the best elemental damage polearm.

 

Staff: Bo Prime is the strongest Staff.

 

So no, it shouldn't be compared to the Soma. The Soma has no right to be as strong as Boltor Prime. These top is almost exclusively shared by Prime, Event, and Clan-Tech weapons. And when the rarity rule is violated, such as in the case of Marelok and Lex Prime, that is when balancing needs to be reconsidered. Note that the only shop weapon on this list is Dragon Nikana, of which one of it's sub-components comes from Clan-Tech, the Nikana.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Arabaxus

[D0ubleFE]

From my very honest and humble point... there is an even greater problem... boltor prime is just the avatar...

 

Every other weapon no matter how good they look, how they work, are overshadowed... by boltor prime, like the soma before, and the strun wraith before.

 

Yes boltor prime is good, so good that everyone has it... so good that I have seen just about everyone (and I mean everyone), using it in my last 4 hours of play...(from rank 4 to rank 14)...it's true...

 

The real problem is not the boltor prime...

The solutions is not nerfing boltor prime...

It's not buffing other weapons...

 

Just stop this "Power Creep" philosophy... whoever can stop it...

[Chaosdreamer]

Remember even if it was "previous prime access" People paid with real money to buy the pack , or with plat , also this news prime access didn't add any main weapon

Edited September 29, 2014 by DEDanielle
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