Playing A Tank Frame Is Actually More Penalizing Than Rewarding?

[Ferriwind]

Why does the tank have to be there first? Loki should always be the first to see the enemies. He's the scout... he has decoy. Why must a Rhino tank hits from trash mobs? Do you think he can spam his high energy abilities at every turn?

Rhino is better than most warframes in many situations. The trade off to his high cc and tankiness is his speed. If you don't like being slow, then choose a high mobility warframe... Your argument is invalid. If speed affects damage and tanking potential, then tankiness affects damage potential. If I can't take hits, how can I deal damage? There are situations where Rhino is better and there are some where faster warframes are better. It's balance and it's in every mmo..

And Rhino is tanky because of his health and shields NOT armor value. Can't stand the heat? That's what all of his abilities are for. Crowd Control.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Stygi

[Elhazzared]

I see almost everyone missed my point with Rhino... and used the SAME TIRED LAME EXCUSE... "go play private or solo",,,, that is not a solution.

YES, it works, but you are immediately relegating them to 2nd class players who can't compete 'in the real world' and you are OK with it!?!

I see you managed to miss and probably on purpose the part that in which I said I agreed that the speed was bad and it should be increased to double which would put it at 100%. Not because this makes him able to play online, but because otherwise it takes forever to run missions and that is what matters. No one want to go down corridors which have no enemies and feeling like they will never get to the end of it, not in a fast paced game at least.

Also playing private isn't a second class warframe, playing online is just the worst thing there is no mater what frame you are in. I don't want to play with people who don't know the basic concenpts of team fighting and even more, I don't want to play with people who don't play in play style. Online mode really has only one point, if you have no friends at all, you can meet one or another that plays like you and then you have a friends or another to go private.

I will also agree on the armor thing. Armor is wasted being only on life, especially when the enemy breaks down the armor you just activate your invunerabillity and recover the shields. In anything armor shouldn't give such a great damage reduction (50% at best for tanky warframes) but it should be applied to shields. That would make armor being worth it.

A good way to actually take care of Rhino's speed problem if you want to address the mobillity in combat being a factor would be giving him something like. Whenever he's hit he can't sprint for 2 seconds. That way in combat he'll not be running for the most part, but once it ends, he has only to wait 2 seconds and he can run as fast as everyone else.

[Fscreams]

Great idea.

I agree with

-Tanky frames should have reduced knockdown / stagger.

- Skill complementing

- Speed (Never played a tank, don't know)

Another way to combat this, is make the lighter frames, i.e. rushers, like Loki/Ash and other ones have a higher chance of getting stumbled / knocked down. Could make them weaker in the hp / shield area too, so tanks do seme helpful to the team.

Frames like Excalibur, or medium frames just have the normal levels of getting knockeddown / stumbled.

They'd have to introduce a knockdown chance though, most likely through explosions ( barrels, grineer grenades) and melee.

[Aerensiniac]

Why does the tank have to be there first?

How would you perform anything similar to tanking without being even there? Cause right now thats my main issue.

Most of the time tank frames will enter the battle as last and can be happy if they actually get to score a few kills.

Loki should always be the first to see the enemies. He's the scout... he has decoy. Why must a Rhino tank hits from trash mobs? Do you think he can spam his high energy abilities at every turn?

First: What is a scout in warframe?

How did you even come up with this idea of "scouting"?

Can loki rely information back to the party? No

Can loki perma stealth or otherwise mask its presence for longer periods of time, to then return to the party after "scouting"? No

Is there any ANY point at all in sending someone into the next room to check whats there, just to then get jumped by the entire group of mobs patrolling there and get chased back to the party? I doubt it hard and btw:

Scouts usually dont carry around the same heavy equipment the rest of the team does. Or did you lately see many scouts with a rotary chain gun?

Long story short: This is not an argument.

If loki gets there first, then loki starts to mow down everything.

There is no "scouting" involved with it. First to arrive is first to get served.

Rhino is better than most warframes in many situations. The trade off to his high cc and tankiness is his speed. If you don't like being slow, then choose a high mobility warframe... Your argument is invalid. If speed affects damage and tanking potential, then tankiness affects damage potential. If I can't take hits, how can I deal damage? There are situations where Rhino is better and there are some where faster warframes are better. It's balance and it's in every mmo..

Just about everything you have said here makes completely no sense at all.

Asking me the question "If I can't take hits, how can I deal damage?" makes it only obvious that you have no idea how to handle mobility.

Even loki can take hits from reload to reload, but unlike your rhino, i can also simply outrun the AI's targeting capabilities since it wont lead shot and keep on aiming behind me, at the spot i was 0.2 seconds ago.

Ultimately, you are right: There are situations where rhino is better (probably boss fights) roughly 2% of the entire game, and there are situations where light frames are better which is just about 98% of all game content.

And just to clear things up: Not even a rhino will be able to stand in front of high end bosses and be able to afford not to hide from time to time.

Rhino will be killed just like any other frame. The only difference is that you have a bigger time window at your disposal before you have to recharge shields, and a bigger health pool to back you up, should you screw up royally.

And yet: It wont do a damn when you arrive to every battle as last.

You can have the best weapons in the game, it wont help you a damn when you are unable to use them.

If you put the exact same equipment on both loki and rhino, and send them on a mission together, loki will beat rhino to a pulp in terms of kills and picked up item count. The irony if this is only that loki doesnt even sport any offensive abilities. Only defensive ones.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Elhazzared]

The AI doesn't aims at where you were 0.2 secs ago, it aims at where you are. Travel time of projectiles do matter since yeah, the AI doesn't plans interception shots. Still, it all depends on howfar you are from the target, if they are at medium distances, sprint all you want, it will still hit you cause the travel time is going to be too fast to get out of the way. another thing to add to the equasion is that enemies aren't conviently arranged in a line shooting at you, more often than not you'll enter a big room and as you move around you have fire incoming from nearly all directions which will help dodge some shots and make sure some will connect. What makes you murder everything in the rooms is your invisibillity as you move from enemy to enemy, killing them without even taking damage at all. When invisibillity goes out, you don't even need to use it again cause most of the targets are dead. A rhino goes in, takes the shots not really caring much about it while he murders everything in the room. In the end the dificulty both have at killing the enemy is the same as both warframes pretty much ignore damage in different ways, it's not your speed that tanks, it helps a little bit, but not that much.

Again you are right that the speed of the Rhino is a pain in the &#! but again, online play is just terrible. It's for the most part everyone out for themselfs with no care for other people's fun and also in most case is a rush through the mission which many don't like. Hence why private is the best. Play online if you don't have friends and desperatly need to try and find some for private games... Not that it is likelly you'l find any. It's a better chance to actually ask in the foruns.

[CyberJellos]

There are movement speed mods for a reason, I have one on my rhino and it helps a lot.

[Elhazzared]

It hardly helps. Don't get me wrong, it helps slightly but you gain speed based of your base speed which is low, so what you gain is a very small bonus. Even with a mod you are still moving slower than say a volt with no mods at all and by slower I mean quite significantly slower.

[Yefrign]

I hae to agree to this. while the less speed doesnt bother me THAT much and since I play with friends most of the time 'keeping up' isnt as much of an issue for me... but I am not looking forward to taking my Rhino into a pub game ...

[Sm0cker]

Here is an idea: make each weapon slow you down based on how heavy it is and how "strong" or "heavy" is your frame. For example nothing can slow Rhino or Frost down, obviosly the heaviest and slowest already, so they can carry any weapons without speed penalty. As for light frames, like Loki, weapons will have %speed penalty. So if we will meet loki with Scido and Hek, he will be noticeably slower than Loki with Paris and Fang. This will add some more weapon managment for your frames and allow you to choose between speed and firepower, and also will "fix" tanky frames speed issue.

[Curiosity]

I agree with the movement nerf comment, it makes me sad to get left behind by my team mates while I drudge along slowly behind. In the end what is the point in a tank in Warframe? Every boss is "tank and spank" but four fast moving dodgy warframes that have a high damage output is more effective at killing a boss then a slow low damage high health warframe.

[Aerensiniac]

The AI doesn't aims at where you were 0.2 secs ago, it aims at where you are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round-trip_time

What do you get when you add latency and bullet travel time together?

Yes. A window for you to outrun the targeting script, which would require to leadshot you in order to actually hit. See you are perfectly able to think on your own.

Another thing to add to the equasion is that enemies aren't conviently arranged in a line shooting at you, more often than not you'll enter a big room and as you move around you have fire incoming from nearly all directions which will help dodge some shots and make sure some will connect.

This holds only true if you are stupid enough to rush in "a big room" full with enemies.

More often than not enemies ARE conviniently arranged in a line due to the fact that warframe is more or less a corridor shooter game.

All those "big rooms" you are talking about have an entrance that is a small corridor, and if you simply stop there, then all of your enemies will be in the front of you. The longer you stay there, the more will all enemies run to the same area to get a shot at you, and when you decide to run then all of them will be actually "conviniently arranged in a line shooting at you".

What makes you murder everything in the rooms is your invisibillity as you move from enemy to enemy, killing them without even taking damage at all. When invisibillity goes out, you don't even need to use it again cause most of the targets are dead.

Why in god's name would i require invisibility to do that?

Let me spell it out for you: I dont take nearly enough damage to make me feel so threatened that i would go invisible.

What do you want? A gameplay video to prove you that i am more than perfectly able to massacre down everything and avoid most damage just by running around and utilzing enemy positioning behind covers?

A rhino goes in, takes the shots not really caring much about it while he murders everything in the room. In the end the dificulty both have at killing the enemy is the same as both warframes pretty much ignore damage in different ways, it's not your speed that tanks, it helps a little bit, but not that much.

And this is the scenario where you lost me.

Rhino goes in taking the shots?

We are playing a different game i think.

Again you are right that the speed of the Rhino is a pain in the &#! but again, online play is just terrible. It's for the most part everyone out for themselfs with no care for other people's fun and also in most case is a rush through the mission which many don't like. Hence why private is the best. Play online if you don't have friends and desperatly need to try and find some for private games... Not that it is likelly you'l find any. It's a better chance to actually ask in the foruns.

Thing is, that nobody should be penalized for his frame.

I do not wish to "play private" because i own a frame that is next to useless in online mode.

That is common sense, wouldnt you say? Instead i want my frame to be adjusted so that it has a chance in online too.

[Ferriwind]

Lol, did you forget that most people won't be able to aim as well sprinting side to side as they can using the right mouse button? The faster you move, the harder to aim, reducing your damage output due to missed shots and inability to consistently hit headshots. Rhino can scope and he'll get the most out of it because he can tank better. Loki and other light frames cannot do this. Loki can spawn a decoy or go invis, Volt can spawn a shield, but most frames need to wait for shields to recover once they take a couple shots. Rhino and heavier frames can last longer so they will be able to take out enemies and reduce the threat in fewer shield regens. With their abilities, Iron Skin/Snow Globe, they are pretty much in godmode.

Although the a.i. is funny, it doesn't mean dodging bullets is a viable gameplay style. ;d

edit: These answers...

If you are just gonna wait for enemies to funnel to you, why do you need more movement speed? Melee isn't viable except for infested. You just want to get through areas with no enemies quickly? Mad cause other frames can move faster?

And, yes, heavy warframes can take shots. I think their shields are twice as much as light frames at max level. I have a Frost under level 20 and he already has more shields than my level 30 Loki.

And, you should get penalized for having specialization. It's only that you specialized and get preferred and better benefits overall. As long as the pros vs cons, achieve the desired results. eg having a tanky, slow frame as opposed to a fast, weak frame, there shouldn't be any huge problems.

How about this? Let's just give all the frames the same base stats and forget about specialized stats and just base it on powers. Then we can choose which warframe we think has the most OP ability set and play that.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Stygi

[Anelyn]

Started my frost recently after a loki and the difference is mind boggling.

The first issue (and probably biggest) is speed.

I can understand the idea of sacrificed mobility for more armor and defense, but i find it rather ridiculous that the frame that is supposed to soak damage is literally the last to enter the battle. My sprinting speed is that of Loki's walking speed for crying out loud and with the difficulty we have right now, there is literally no point to wait for the tank.

Quicker and faster frames just rush in, butcher everything without any need of support, and rhino/frost will arrive just about the right time to collect the left over loot.

Second issue: Knock down.

On this note i have to say that i expressed in several threads that i do not want knock downs and stuns to be also nerfed to hell since they represent one of the last few remaining challenges of the game that can actually kill you (and lets be honest here, since the passive health/shield/energy buff, the only way to die is to either get a knockdown or to be stupid enough to stand in a crossfire for 10 seconds or more).

That being said, i find that tank frames should receive a reduced chance of stun/knockdown.

On my loki, if i got knocked down i had nobody to blame, but on frost due to my reduced mobility and the fact that i am supposed to be somewhat tank these crackas, especially the infested... nope. It does not work.

Tank frame or not, if you get a knockdown in the middle of a swarm, you will be eaten alive. Even more so since Ancient Disruptors can simply shoo shoo all energy and shields away in a swing of their hand, stripping you of all chances at survival.

Third issue: Lack of complementing

This is more of a general problem than that of the tank frames, but stays true here as well.

Warframes and skills dont complement each other, drastically reducing team play experience in the long run.

In most team based MMOs classes are specific and there are specializations. Tank tanks, healer heals, engineer engineers, dps dpses.

In Warframe, everyone is ~-=t3hUltimateMegad3thDOOMknight=-~ and unites all features, classes and roles in their character while having absolutely no need for the support of others and/or teammates.

The essence of this issue shows in boss fights mainly: Bosses require no team work of any form, just a crapload of bullets. They are essentially what you call bullet sponges and you only need to team up against them to kill them quicker/have enough ammo around to ensure a safe, ranged kill.

Long story short: We are in beta but i cant really see how the end game/warranty of the game will play out on the long run. If we keep the current elements and ideals of the game, warframe will never be more than extensive grind fest with no challenge of skill and 4 derailed trains of doom murdering masses of chance less enemies much like a lawn mower is cutting through grass, with tank frames tagging behind them at all times.

The whole idea is to use your skills to prevent the situation where you are swarmed by infested from all sides. Even if you had reduced chance to be staggered / knocked down / stunned, with the amount of mobs attacking who can produce those effects you would still end up on floor. (chargers, runners, dogs etc).

As frost you have plenty of control and defense options in your skills. Every warframe has to use something to prevent this situation, no other frame can just stand in there and take it / deal dmg. If you use frost mods on your weapons is really not hard to kite zergs, they are slown down more than you move backpedalling :)

[LordLokai]

Love my rhino to death because it reminds me so much of krogan's from ME series and way i always imagined them fighting. Shotgun in hand, heavy pistol...man i love it! that said the slower speed is countr productive to the frame. I should be the first one into battle situations, charging forward having insane durability some suggestions from me are...

1:Tank frames draw more power from there weapon systems, reducing damage accross the board say 10-15%, however there shields gain damage reduction equal to there armor value.

2: sprint speed normalized

3: Tanks generate a taunt aura when they use a power, forcing any enemies in X radius to focus on them rather then there party members/

4: gain natural resistance that increases with frame rank against all control effects.

This makes them more tanky, less dps, and ability to make enemies focus on them. Honestly wanna know who best tank frame right now is? the Nyx why? because i can stun entire groups of enemies and prevent damage... the nyx reminds me of my old controller from CoH/V we tanked by preventing enemies from attacking and the nyx is very good at that!

[Elhazzared]

Again you outrun them at long ranges, not at short or medium ranges. I can't. Sprint as much as I might they hit me more than they miss at least from levels 26 up. I have a friend who plays loki and yeah, he rarelly dies, but I've seen him running around from enemy to enemy or just dodging fire. He didn't dodged S#&$ at short to mid ranges. Of course he can just go invisible or use a decoy and his shield, not huge but able to take a few bullets anyway.

So in a big room you sit on your &#! (ocassionally poking a shot or another) until most of the enemies funnel somewhere so you can run around? Somehow I doubt you do that and again, where they will funnel is in a place close to you, will they miss if you run out? Hell no they won't. You go invisible ike everybody else. Yes I know you don't need the invisibillity to clear out large rooms full of enemies. If I never needed with non tank frames why should you? But you do it because it's the fastest way to kill everything and move on. If you don't you take more time and while time doesn't exactly relates to speed, it does makes the Rhino disadvantage seam lesser.

Yes, that's how Rhino works. A room full of enemies. What do I care. I go in take the shots and do it like a sitting duck because they won't even go through the shields. You don't need strategy or thinking on a Rhino. Enter the room, stop, shot everything that moves. I don't know how this lost you and if you think this is an invalid way to play a Rhino who can do it and laugh, well, that's your problem. For the most part I'm half able to do that in a volt warframe and I never used my shield in my volt warframe just so we're clear on that point. I tanked rooms on 840 shields and 70% of the times it was enough, let alone a Rhino with over 1000 shields, more health than god, damage reduction to health and invunerabillity for a small energy cost.

As for the playing online thing let me be more clear as you seam to be failing to realise what I mean. Playing online is being penalised. It's the worst piece of crap this game wuill ever present you and while I understand it being there, if it was removed I wouldn't even notice. If you play private you're only getting fun. If you play online you'll likelly get trolls and other sort of idiots which every game has and they ruin the fun of any game. It's like. Playing solo is ok. Playing private is awesome. Playing online is just plain bad. There is no penalisation for not being able or not feeling able to play online, in fact that a plus!

[Arzete]

On the wiki it says that all warframes have the same sprint speed?...

[Aerensiniac]

On the wiki it says that all warframes have the same sprint speed?...

I can only tell you that right now that is not the case.

[LordLokai]

Melee isn't viable except for infested.

Are we playing the same game? my friend will enter any mission and exit that mission with about 75-80% kills done with his melee weapon, he can move faster and kill faster then most people i've seen in game simply using melee. He infuriates me because i can never seem to keep pace with him and for most part he melee kills.

See it turns out melee is stupidly powerful in hands of a good player... so i have to wonder just how far you have gotten in this game... only time melee becomes less of an option is vs some bosses and even then if you know what you are doing can easily skirt through there attacks and land melee strikes which do high grade of damage.

On my rhino i love sliding and unloading my shotgun before spinning and jump striking... that said big issue here is that speed prevents the heavies from keeping up with the group. If heavy arrives after everything has been delt with then his primary duty is flawed... i dont think you have played with any really skilled players or you are blind to the obvious power behind a melee focused frame.

[Demonocolips]

first issue speed

while for weight giving him the same top speed but slower acceleration

building and expending inertia for ramming and such would be great

second issue knockdown

yeah theres no real way to get around that besides making it harder to knock you over.

third issue powers

just needs balancing and knowing what to do. but some of the powers dont work that well together.

[vats3]

okay i have to say i am in the same boat in a way i started out with loki and just got my frost today and of course my first thought is "wow frost is kinda slow" and then more recently i switched back to loki and i seriously couldn't believe how fast i was going it felt faster then i had ever been, i didnt even had any mods to incress speed. im sorry but you shouldent have to slow down your team just by picking a different frame even more so considering frames don't mean to much, i understand moving slower but you really feel like you are going no where

[FaerellG]

Well, what i mean with tank is not really much of an importance.

Theoretically it would be a nice thing if Rhino and Frost could complement the party they are in by soaking damage for them (effectively: Yes. Tank for them), but thats only wishful thinking.

The main problem is what i wrote just above: All classes severely outperform Frost/Rhino and having more shields/health/armor is only a crutch to make up for the lack of speed on other classes. I assumed first that having high amounts of health/shields is an advantage. Now it turns out that its not a benefit but instead a necessity to make up for all of the handicaps that come with being slow.

Alas: no. Your shields and health are nowhere high enough to make up for the fact that you will be always running after your party, enter battles last, will soak more damage in general, fail to reach containers before your teammates, will knocked down and tossed around significantly more, will still fail to stand solidly on your feet against general threats that should be plaguing light frames, namely: Knockdown, stun, stagger, poison, etc.

Everything counted together: Bulk frames suck nano spores.

I totally agree that bulk frames suck. And I think what you mean by "tanking" matters. Combat always has roles. Whether you're playing a medival fantasy game where you have a shield warrior blocking for his archer and healer, or if you're playing a futureistic game like this one.

So, here's what you're looking at in order to make a "tank" (again drawing on my LoL, WoW, and SC2 gaming experience).

You need something that can soak damage. (higher HP/shields, damage reduction, armor, etc)

You need an "initiation" move. Meaning you need a way to get in there fast and and hold the enemy in place (or entice them to stay there) for your team to mop up. (Taunts, stuns, disarms, etc).

And you need a way to persist in being disruptive or threatening in combat. You either have to be damaging enough to be a threat over time, or you need to be annoying as all hell to the enemy.

In a PvE game, simple threat/aggro mechanics would be much simpler implement, but kind of boring to play. WoW AI is incredibly dumb and simple minded. And the co-op gameplay was more about "don't be an idiot" than actually having skill, and that's what this game will turn into with threat/aggro mechanics. I don't want that. That sounds boring.

A more intelligent system where they will try to target your squishier allies, and you need to position to block or get in their faces would be nice.

[Ferriwind]

Are we playing the same game? my friend will enter any mission and exit that mission with about 75-80% kills done with his melee weapon, he can move faster and kill faster then most people i've seen in game simply using melee. He infuriates me because i can never seem to keep pace with him and for most part he melee kills.

See it turns out melee is stupidly powerful in hands of a good player... so i have to wonder just how far you have gotten in this game... only time melee becomes less of an option is vs some bosses and even then if you know what you are doing can easily skirt through there attacks and land melee strikes which do high grade of damage.

On my rhino i love sliding and unloading my shotgun before spinning and jump striking... that said big issue here is that speed prevents the heavies from keeping up with the group. If heavy arrives after everything has been delt with then his primary duty is flawed... i dont think you have played with any really skilled players or you are blind to the obvious power behind a melee focused frame.

Yes, we are playing the same game where guns exist. How far have you gotten that your friend can melee everything to death by himself..:/

And bosses are exactly why melee isn't viable. They show everything wrong with melee in its current state. There is simply no benefit to melee over guns unless you are in an infested mission other than stealth play due to lack of silencers(now we have Paris though) and the coolness factor.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Stygi

[letir]

We need something like "Armor=knockback/stagger resist", like Poise in Dark Souls.

Edited April 9, 2013 by letir

[Imbaland]

http://en.wikipedia....Round-trip_time

What do you get when you add latency and bullet travel time together?

Yes. A window for you to outrun the targeting script, which would require to leadshot you in order to actually hit. See you are perfectly able to think on your own.

Thankfully, this has not been true since like 1999. Latency has absolutely no affect on AI and where they aim, because AI runs on the server, and the server is law. It doesn't matter if you are a hundred billion million miles away from a spot on your screen, if the server says you are somewhere, you are there, and the AI is going to shoot there.

[Aerensiniac]

Thankfully, this has not been true since like 1999. Latency has absolutely no affect on AI and where they aim, because AI runs on the server, and the server is law. It doesn't matter if you are a hundred billion million miles away from a spot on your screen, if the server says you are somewhere, you are there, and the AI is going to shoot there.

Hi and welcome to warframe. Let us commune again once you have actually played the game.

Lagg towards the host will not only affect the AI, but can make you walk around as if in time stop, placing cuts on enemies without any reaction, just to see them fall apart 6 seconds later.

I do admit that it looks cool tho.

With certain super hosts playing from the moon, i can slash up to 8 enemies just to watch the first come apart by the time i placed a cut on the 8th.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Aerensiniac