Kurbows Need A Heavy Revamp On Damage And Upkeep

[Bloodgrave]

I was very excited for kubrows for quite some time... as soon as they got in game I went "all in" on maxing mods and heavy multi-forma kubrow leveling. I speak from experience with this post.

 

I have now have all the attack mods maxed out and all the defense mods maxed out too. 

 

My sunika (the attack dog)  has a potato and I forma'd (many times to fit all the mods).

 

My reward for all this hard work?

My dog just runs around and watches me kill stuff most of the time. It does not add much of anything to my warframe or my gameplay at all. In fact, 99% of the time it's just mostly eye candy.

 

My sentinels never had problem kill stealing from me left and right... they also have tons of useful mods that helped me in many other ways which added to my gameplay.... My dog on other hand? It attacks so infrequently, it is pointless to even have it equipped.

 

Despite investing tons of effort, time and money making my sunika the absolute best I can with current mods in game, I am rewarded with a lazy dog and high upkeep.  

 

My sentinels are infinitely better than the kurbows in almost every way possible (currently). The only way kubrows are better are in their ability to tank. A pet that tanks good does not add anything to my gameplay. 

 

With the addition of having to heal dogs every 2 days and having loyalty hits every time it happens to die it just makes me question why anyone would want to use kubrows in the long run (with current coding). The penalization cooldown of switching kurbows is also an issue too. I do not have a cooldown to switch sentinels or frames, why do I need a cooldown to switch dogs??? 

 

You can see what I am getting out here right?

There is a lot of negatives surrounding upkeeping a dog and little to no benefit at all since it's so lack luster in missions. 

 

Without a hearty revamp to the kurbow AI or at very least removing the annoying loyalty mechanic and health decay mechanic and statis cool down mechanic. It almost seems the only reason to have one right now is just to say..."I have a kubrow too!"

 

Please look into heavily enhancing the kubrow usefulness and possibly reducing/removing its upkeep issues that we don't have to deal with on any other item in the game. I have no problem with heavy upkeep as long as the kubrow is so amazing I can't live without it. Something needs to be change as it stands now though. 

Edited July 26, 2014 by Bloodgrave

[CedarDpg]

Wow. Totally not reading that. You might want to use white text and not play with the background colors because it makes it really hard to read. :)

[Syzodia]

The hotfix was not supposed to do that to the forums.

 

WHAT, DO?!

[Mirriky]

copy the text and use ctrl+shift+v to remove the back formatting

 

for readers use this

I was very excited for kubrows for quite some time... as soon as they got in game I went "all in" on maxing mods and heavy multi-forma kubrow leveling. I speak from experience with this post.

 

I have now have all the attack mods maxed out and all the defense mods maxed out too. 

 

My sunika (the attack dog)  has a potato and I forma'd (many times to fit all the mods).

 

My reward for all this hard work?

My dog just runs around and watches me kill stuff most of the time. It does not add much of anything to my warframe or my gameplay at all. In fact, 99% of the time it's just mostly eye candy.

 

My sentinels never had problem kill stealing from me left and right... they also have tons of useful mods that helped me in many other ways which added to my gameplay.... My dog on other hand? It attacks so infrequently, it is pointless to even have it equipped.

 

Despite investing tons of effort, time and money making my sunika the absolute best I can with current mods in game, I am rewarded with a lazy dog and high upkeep.  

 

My sentinels are infinitely better than the kurbows in almost every way possible (currently). The only way kubrows are better are in their ability to tank. A pet that tanks good does not add anything to my gameplay. 

 

With the addition of having to heal dogs every 2 days and having loyalty hits every time it happens to die it just makes me question why anyone would want to use kubrows in the long run (with current coding). The penalization cooldown of switching kurbows is also an issue too. I do not have a cooldown to switch sentinels or frames, why do I need a cooldown to switch dogs??? 

 

You can see what I am getting out here right?

There is a lot of negatives surrounding upkeeping a dog and little to no benefit at all since it's so lack luster in missions. 

 

Without a hearty revamp to the kurbow AI or at very least removing the annoying loyalty mechanic and health decay mechanic and statis cool down mechanic. It almost seems the only reason to have one right now is just to say..."I have a kubrow too!"

 

Please look into heavily enhancing the kubrow usefulness and possibly reducing/removing its upkeep issues that we don't have to deal with on any other item in the game. I have no problem with heavy upkeep as long as the kubrow is so amazing I can't live without it. Something needs to be change as it stands now though. 

 

I agree with this fully btw

Edited July 26, 2014 by cam-o-flage20

[DSpite]

So what the OP is saying is that he power leveled his dog at least 120 levels without actually using it properly to see what it would do.

 

I have no sympathy. If you can't be bothered to just get it to 30 and do some frigging testing, the fact that you Forma'd it once or ten times is irrelevant. For all you know the AI will get tweaked later on, and turn it into a monster killing machine, as things are not written in stone.

 

Whether Kubrows need a revamp or not is not your decision to make and you need to make less aggressive forums posts, or you will be ignored, almost as I ignored you when you made the decision to make your text black over a black background. Consider it a courtesy I bothered cut-past into notepad.

[Bloodgrave]

So what the OP is saying is that he power leveled his dog at least 120 levels without actually using it properly to see what it would do.

 

I have no sympathy. If you can't be bothered to just get it to 30 and do some frigging testing, the fact that you Forma'd it once or ten times is irrelevant. For all you know the AI will get tweaked later on, and turn it into a monster killing machine, as things are not written in stone.

 

Whether Kubrows need a revamp or not is not your decision to make and you need to make less aggressive forums posts, or you will be ignored, almost as I ignored you when you made the decision to make your text black over a black background. Consider it a courtesy I bothered cut-past into notepad.

 

?

 

You can't level something to 120 levels without having intimate knowledge of what it does.

 

After spending this much time with kubrow I know a lot about it's mechanics. I learned a lot and I am speaking on the topic giving my feedback.

 

This is not a sympathy forum (I don't need it or want it.. I play this game to have fun and I do), this is the "feedback" forum and I am supplying feedback on a new feature.

 

If you have some constructive feedback related to his topic I will be glad to hear it though.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Bloodgrave

[Davoodoo]

So what the OP is saying is that he power leveled his dog at least 120 levels without actually using it properly to see what it would do.

 

I have no sympathy. If you can't be bothered to just get it to 30 and do some frigging testing, the fact that you Forma'd it once or ten times is irrelevant. For all you know the AI will get tweaked later on, and turn it into a monster killing machine, as things are not written in stone.

 

Whether Kubrows need a revamp or not is not your decision to make and you need to make less aggressive forums posts, or you will be ignored, almost as I ignored you when you made the decision to make your text black over a black background. Consider it a courtesy I bothered cut-past into notepad.

Murdering machine you say??

 

Lets compare murdering machine tenno with sword to tenno sentinel with assault rifle.

Yea that pretty much sums it up.

 

Kubrows will die faster because they are melee.

Kubrows will deal less dps because they are melee.

Kubrows provide better utility than some sentinels and worse than others while overall providing less utility but more focused.

Kubrows have upkeep, loyalty with restore limit while sentinels have none of that.

 

That doesnt look good.

[Bloodgrave]

I think the key points to keep in mind here are kubrows simply do not do enough currently.

 

- I have seen my kubrow just stand there while I get attacked from behind while using terminals. This is the very reason we have companions to at the very least defend us.

 

- I also have seen my kubrow stand next to me and watch the mobs surround me waiting for me to do something (this happens a lot). Clearly, this is not working as intended and if it is it needs an overhaul. 

 

- I knew going into this kubrow it's melee and not a range companion. However, it's not hard to expect the kubrow companion to be somewhat as good as the sentinel companions.... being that they are both companions. 

 

- Friends of mine with the raksa and sahasa have similar complaints about their pets not doing enough to help them. Anyone who has spent significant time with kubrows right now knows what I am talking about here. 

 

- These points are only compounded and made worse, when you consider dna stabilizers are needed every 2 days, 3 hour stasis cool downs on switching pets, and limited loyalty gains per day vs loyalty losses on death. 

 

These issues are tweaking and balancing issues. However, the only way these things get tweaked and balanced are people speaking up about it.

 

This is why I posted in in "feedback" and not main general chat, so we can assist the developers in getting them info they need to make the changes.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Bloodgrave

[Davoodoo]

I think the key points to keep in mind here are kubrows simply do not do enough currently.

For kubrow to be really useful, it would require them to have ai on par with at least barely experienced player with decent reflex.

 

If they cant follow dodge patterns then they are gonna die, no such problems with sentinels which simply float above you meaning that every dodge you do they do too.

Warframe is action heavy so managing orders for your pet while worrying about yourself would be a bit too much.

Another way to do this is make them follow you closely and only leap to attack so once they actually act on their own its already too late for enemy to hurt them while also having quick recall order button.

 

As for offensive their attacks would need to be quick and without much contact or they will get killed and their dps will be 0.

To be on par with sentinel i predict that they should do at least 4 times as much dmg per shot as sweeper.

 

As for utility like i mentioned its more focused but less varied, every sentinel can regen your shields but only raksa kubrow can do it, stun is nice but aoe is really small and except scaring infested it doesnt do much, on ther other hand wyrm can also regen your shields and will stun enemies when you pass them by and slows them down if you have coolant equipped, sanctuary doesnt last long but certainly helps too. Some work would certainly be needed for kubrows to be more useful in that regard, maybe buffs to range and certainly smarter ai.

 

Ive been using my raksa for some time now and honestly it wasnt worth 150k they wanted for power core not to mention 100k upkeep.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Davoodoo

[TickTockMan]

I'm really disappointed with the Sunika in particular. I'm working on a thread outlining the changes I would make to the Combat kubrow to make it more worthwhile, since it like the utility of the other breeds.

 

My main suggestions would be to make the finishing attack ability innate, and change that mod to one that allows them to leap into a group of enemies and knock them all down in a decent AOE. They would also need an AOE attack to be able to hang.

 

It just doesn't make much sense to have a combat kubrow that can attack one target every 20 seconds or so, when we, as tenno, can mow down hundreds of enemies in that time. They need aoe damage and CC to be worth using over the other breeds.

Edited July 26, 2014 by TickTockMan

[LasersGoPewPew]

i think that the dogs should just be "KO'd" when its' "stability" reaches 0%, and we should need a new item to bring it back from the KO'd status,

 

what could the item be? Kubrow Treats.

 

i also think that since the dogs are MELEE ORIENTED, they should have inherent health regeneration without the use of Rejuvination, or Blessing/life steal.

[Vesrand]

Heh I knew kurbows will be something like that on beginning) And mods for them are expensive right know. So thats why I obtained my kurbow but didnt bother to level it or equip with mods. I'll just wait until things will change as usual)

[Aramanth]

This is really bothering me, but why are people saying stuff like "oh, my kubrow is useless because it doesn't attack enough." while mine (another sunika) is killing things so quickly low level missions become a contest to see who can out kill who.  She always goes for the mob I missed behind me, always seeks out and kills that hidden enemy sniping me, always knocks down flying enemies dumb enough to get too close to the ground, always double stealth kills along side me, always kills weak enemies in one hit and always holds down tougher enemies until they die from being strangled by a bat dog with 5.6k psi of biting pressure.  The only times she doesn't fight is against Ruk, Lech, and the stalker- enemies she probably shouldn't be fighting in the first place!  I've died more than my kubrow as a rhino prime.  Hell,l she growls when there are enemies nearby letting me know I'm about to get into a firefight, she avoids laser doors in Corpus until I go through them or disable them, and she's immune to arc traps and orokin lasers.  She's practically immortal and the only time I saw her go down was when she rushed a large group in nightmare mode, but in that case if anyone did that they'd be screwed.  Right now there are only 8 good kubrow mods- two of them are your kubrow's main skills and the other 6 are going to be required because without them they're more frail than sentinels at level 1.  Put them all on your kubrow asap.  If you're expecting it to be a god without mods, you should expect the same from all equipment and frames.  Play Loki without any mods.   Yeah, the mods are hard to get- they're supposed to be.   Just like split chamber should be hard to get or the event mods or primed chamber is now.  The good stuff should be rare, that's how it's supposed to work.  Otherwise we might as well not even bother with the ability to upgrade and should be given maxed gear the moment we start.

 

The upkeep is rough for new players but earning 100k a day becomes doable once you get better dark sector's unlocked, even more so for getting it in time to bring their hp back up.  With the -10% every day and with one injector healing up to 40%, a six pack will last you more than three weeks, which is plenty of time to earn 100k.  And keep in mind that their HP is linked to your HP if you have the link mods on, so even at 160% HP (which is what four days of no injections will do) she will have far more HP than you and thus more survivability.

 

I'm sorry if I'm off topic, but I don't understand the mindset.  Maybe I have the Chosen Kubrow or something and she's just really good at her job, but considering I feel like the only person who can't one-shot the stalker before he stands up I really doubt I was lucky enough to get the world's greatest bat dog.  With the exception of my ember (who needs a carrier to keep her ignis ammo reserves up) I refuse to not use my sunika.  Her insane killing ability coupled with target disabling prowess makes her a godsend in any mission.  Oh, she somehow dies?  Pet her once and she's back up to full happiness.  You lose 20% loyalty per death but gain 20% for petting them up to three times a day.  If your kubrow's dying three times a day, stop taking them to fight Lephantis one on one!

 

Kubrows don't replace sentinels, they're a sidegrade to sentinels- they're designed to offer benefits and disadvantages that counter the benefits/disadvantages of sentinels, they're not meant to be an upgrade from them.  Carriers are still useful for their vacuum just like kubrows are useful for quick take downs of enemies you might not see at that moment or are attacking you from behind or holding a boss in place while you fill them full of lead.

 

- Friends of mine with the raksa and sahasa have similar complaints about their pets not doing enough to help them. Anyone who has spent significant time with kubrows right now knows what I am talking about here. 

 

No, I don't know what you're talking about.  She's ripped more throats out than I can count.  My sentinel does pitiful damage, knocks enemies out of melee range, and doesn't seem to target enemies that are actually attacking, instead focusing on something on the other side of the map like it talked smack about the sentinel's mother.  My kubrow?  She steamrolls enemies, she doesn't lose HP after life support is lost, keeps her shields in no shields mode, can hold down bosses for high damage over time, is faster than loki prime, is practically hacking to have that much durability, and can even kill multiple enemies with one swipe if they're close enough together.  I'll gladly play senimei or sechura to wave 5 a few times for the 100k needed to keep her happy for a month.

 

Edit: Alright, thinking a bit about my experiences, I will admit there are times where my Kubrow doesn't attack an enemy.  She stands near them.  Here's the thing:

 

1. That's an AI bug, or a pathing bug, or something else but it's a bug.  It'll be fixed in time.

 

2.  She's still showing me where an enemy is.  If I see her charging behind a box I know there's something there.  A sentinel sometimes won't even point at the enemy, it'll just fire its weapon at nothing.

 

So she's still useful in those situations.  I'm also thinking because of your playstyle Kubrows don't work for you.  How do you normally play?  Rushing through an area as quickly as possible, spindashing with dual ichors or Orthos Prime? Then don't use a kubrow because it'll be too busy trying to respawn next to you to actually attack anything.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Aramanth

[Hezekiah]

Add elemental mods to Kubrows, so they can at least do some sort of aura damage, or further enhance their attach capabilities, it would also save us from having to farm for Bit and Maul to increase their attack effectiveness.