Weapons I Want To See In Warframe: Chainblades And (Charging) Lance + Moonsplitter?

[Fragowump]

Could the javelin be something like the glaive, where it gets thrown then comes back?
Like a spear on a chain or something, or is that too close to valkyr's first ability?

[Xievie]

I ended up not sleeping right away, lol.

That would not be as much as charging than just taking your time to aim. 

 

Well, there are Napalm shots and Mutalist Osprey clouds, so probably.

Well, those hazards are against the player. The amount of mobs and the pace of the game are a bit slow. The game is also anti-hazard friendly. If not in Survival, Defense, or Mobile Defense, then you will be on the move. It is better to bring the damage with you, not leave it on the ground.

  

Could the javelin be something like the glaive, where it gets thrown then comes back?

Like a spear on a chain or something, or is that too close to valkyr's first ability?

I did say you can't get a javelin back because it pierces rather than bounces, but the chain idea sounds interesting. Not sure what else to say about it though.

[Syzodia]

How about a Javelin that leaves a Zipline?

 

.......i know that's a bit silly, but hey!

[Xievie]

How about a Javelin that leaves a Zipline?

 

.......i know that's a bit silly, but hey!

Kind of a cool idea. It may be silly, but you can't say it's a "bad" idea. Heck, I was just thinking of a yo-yo weapon, lol.

[Renegade343]

Well, those hazards are against the player. The amount of mobs and the pace of the game are a bit slow. The game is also anti-hazard friendly. If not in Survival, Defense, or Mobile Defense, then you will be on the move. It is better to bring the damage with you, not leave it on the ground.

Extermination and other missions could still work. 

 

Just throw the javelin at the enemy. After all, I did state that if it lands on the ground (meaning it can still pierce enemies), then it bursts into caltrops for floor hazards. 

[Viridias]

The Glaives flying right through enemies, bouncing off surfaces and obediently returning to your hand like some well-trained hunting falcons is utter bullS#&$ physics anyway; whatever handwaves THAT ought to equally allow for returning javelins no problem. Even easier really, since the weapon more or less just needs to reverse its trajectory.

 

As an aside, while dedicated javelins are mediocre melee weapons at best (they're a bit on the small, light and flimsy side for such use) larger dual-purpose spears that could equally well serve as short-range missiles and stabbing weapons have been *extremely* common and popular historically; users typically carried a pair to keep their options open after the first throw, and ofc some kind of sidearm for when they opted to toss both.

[Xievie]

Extermination and other missions could still work. 

 

Just throw the javelin at the enemy. After all, I did state that if it lands on the ground (meaning it can still pierce enemies), then it bursts into caltrops for floor hazards. 

 

What I'm saying is, floor hazards don't really work well with the game. Sure it still "works", but how viable is it? If it is not practical for many uses, then players will not use it. I'd rather a weapon not go unused.

Floor hazards are a nice idea, don't get me wrong because I think it would be cool, but I don't believe it would be practical or effective enough in a game like this without totally breaking the weapon.

 

The Glaives flying right through enemies, bouncing off surfaces and obediently returning to your hand like some well-trained hunting falcons is utter bullS#&$ physics anyway; whatever handwaves THAT ought to equally allow for returning javelins no problem. Even easier really, since the weapon more or less just needs to reverse its trajectory.

 

While yes, Glaive bouncing is bullS#&$ physics, a javelin returning is EVEN MORE bullS#&$ considering how it's a piercing weapon. It doesn't bounce, it sticks inside things.

[Viridias]

While yes, Glaive bouncing is bullS#&$ physics, a javelin returning is EVEN MORE bullS#&$ considering how it's a piercing weapon. It doesn't bounce, it sticks inside things.

 

And edged projectiles are in the habit of making a gash and getting stuck when they hit things (and falling ignomiously on the ground when the target is too hard), what's your point? Just make the tip easily extractable. Hell, we're talking Sufficiently Advanced Technology here; there's no reason for the tip to stay in the same shape anyway, any more than eg. the Glaive does when contracted into its "carry mode"...

 

Basically, given how flagrantly just the melee in this game violates basic physics* this kind of counterargument is plain silly.

 

 

*no, weapon swings do NOT go through several people... nevermind now *armoured* ones

Edited July 29, 2014 by Viridias

[Renegade343]

And edged projectiles are in the habit of making a gash and getting stuck when they hit things (and falling ignomiously on the ground when the target is too hard), what's your point? Just make the tip easily extractable. Hell, we're talking Sufficiently Advanced Technology here; there's no reason for the tip to stay in the same shape anyway, any more than eg. the Glaive does when contracted into its "carry mode"...

Actually, if the tip is tempered enough, it would still stay roughly the same shape when it pierces something and hits the ground. 

 

The Romans used soft iron for their throwing spear tips so that the victim cannot pull them out and use them again (since the tip would be bent). 

[Senketsu_]

I am TOTALY behind a Lance as a weapon!!

[Viridias]

Actually, if the tip is tempered enough, it would still stay roughly the same shape when it pierces something and hits the ground. 

 

The Romans used soft iron for their throwing spear tips so that the victim cannot pull them out and use them again (since the tip would be bent). 

 

Er, I was referring to the option of making the business end out of high-tech junk that can change its shape for different purposes you know. Eg. narrow upon impact for maximum penetration, wide going in for wider wound channel, then, well, whatever now might make for easy extraction.

 

Btw AFAIK the *tips* of pila were tempered like those of any spear; it was the long slender iron shanks behind those that were deliberately left soft. And the main purpose was to get the heavy throwing-spear well and truly stuck in the other guy's shield with predictable effects upon the wieldiness of the thing. The more common way to achieve much the same effect was to make the head barbed, which obviously also made the weapon difficult to get out of a wound, and indeed the earliest pila used in Italy after the idea was adopted from Carthage's Iberian mercenaries indeed had wide barbed tips.

 

I find the claim about reusability dubious though; if the enemy had the time to start scrounging the battlefield for spare missiles then he should also have quite enough time to straighten the shank back to a throwable condition, which ought not have required too much effort for a fit warrior. Some Roman sources claimed at least some Celtic long swords were made of rather soft iron and tended to start getting bendy in combat; the owners apparent rectified the matter by propping them against the ground and pressing with a foot. While some grains of salt may be warrented, seeing as how the Celts were first-rate ironworkers and swordsmiths - though these may have been "cheap & cheerful" specimen used by low-ranking warriors of modest means, AFAIK modern experiments have confirmed the workability of the procedure.

[Renegade343]

I find the claim about reusability dubious though; if the enemy had the time to start scrounging the battlefield for spare missiles then he should also have quite enough time to straighten the shank back to a throwable condition, which ought not have required too much effort for a fit warrior. Some Roman sources claimed at least some Celtic long swords were made of rather soft iron and tended to start getting bendy in combat; the owners apparent rectified the matter by propping them against the ground and pressing with a foot. While some grains of salt may be warrented, seeing as how the Celts were first-rate ironworkers and swordsmiths - though these may have been "cheap & cheerful" specimen used by low-ranking warriors of modest means, AFAIK modern experiments have confirmed the workability of the procedure.

You do realise it is not easy to straighten the shank back to accurate throwing condition, right?

 

Even if you make it as straight as possible with your bare hands, there will be slight bends and curves that would affect the trajectory of the spear. 

[Viridias]

You do realise it is not easy to straighten the shank back to accurate throwing condition, right?

 

Even if you make it as straight as possible with your bare hands, there will be slight bends and curves that would affect the trajectory of the spear. 

 

These things were normally thrown in the general direction of a massed enemy formation at whatwasitnow, 10-30 meter distance. Heck, it was SOP for the rear ranks to lob theirs blind over the heads of the guys in front...

 

Pinpoint accuracy wasn't exactly critical.

 

And even if the fighting was for whatever reason in dispersed order where you actually have to try hitting an individual guy, well, which would *you* rather have - an inaccurate throwing spear or none at all?

Edited July 30, 2014 by Viridias

[Renegade343]

These things were normally thrown in the general direction of a massed enemy formation at whatwasitnow, 10-30 meter distance. Heck, it was SOP for the rear ranks to lob theirs blind over the heads of the guys in front...

 

Pinpoint accuracy wasn't exactly critical.

 

And even if the fighting was for whatever reason in dispersed order where you actually have to try hitting an individual guy, well, which would *you* rather have - an inaccurate throwing spear or none at all?

I would get something else off the ground than a bent spear to fix around. 

 

And I was not saying about pinpoint accuracy. More like general accuracy. 

 

Actually, if we are fighting the Romans with their own pila, I think a bit more pinpoint accuracy than general accuracy would be needed (for hitting the face, for instance). After all, the armour will soften the force of the spear throw stab by a bit. 

[Viridias]

I would get something else off the ground than a bent spear to fix around. 

 

And I was not saying about pinpoint accuracy. More like general accuracy. 

 

Actually, if we are fighting the Romans with their own pila, I think a bit more pinpoint accuracy than general accuracy would be needed (for hitting the face, for instance). After all, the armour will soften the force of the spear throw stab by a bit. 

 

Beggars can't be choosers; infantry fights tended to be rather drawn-out affairs and kit tended to get rather worn by the end.Eg. having to re-sharpen swords and scrounge up replacements for broken spears during lulls was perfectly normal. And if you've already tossed your own javelins at the guys behind the funny shields and the only replacements readily salvageable from the field are their now rather bendy-wendy pila, the course of action is obvious enough.

 

Not really seeing how general accuracy would be an issue, battlefield missile use was 95% against "area targets" anyway - even a relatively small tactical formation like a Roman maniple still took up an awful lot of square meters. Bit hard to miss really.

 

Armour? Yeah not really. In early-mid Republican Roman triplex acies armies only under half of the infantry wore meaningful amounts thereof anyway, namely the principes in the second line and the triarii in the final reserve line; the hastati in the first line tended not have more than a small pectoral plate on the chest and the skirmishing velites preceding them were lucky to have a helmet. The later armies were standardised to the principes kit (though for whatever reason the hastati-principes-triarii terminology remained), but mail shirts and scale cuirasses AFAIK did not really enjoy a reputation of being a particularly reliable protection against narrow-tipped throwing spears this heavy.

 

The already mentioned Iberians incidentally one-upped the pilum with something the Romans called soliferrum, which was exactly what it sounds like - a solid iron throwing spear...

[Renegade343]

Armour? Yeah not really. In early-mid Republican Roman triplex acies armies only under half of the infantry wore meaningful amounts thereof anyway, namely the principes in the second line and the triarii in the final reserve line; the hastati in the first line tended not have more than a small pectoral plate on the chest and the skirmishing velites preceding them were lucky to have a helmet. The later armies were standardised to the principes kit (though for whatever reason the hastati-principes-triarii terminology remained), but mail shirts and scale cuirasses AFAIK did not really enjoy a reputation of being a particularly reliable protection against narrow-tipped throwing spears this heavy.

The pectoral plate will still soak up some of the force of the pilum. 

 

And as for later armies, that was during the waning years of Rome, if I remember correctly. 

 

Then again, I care more about mathematics and chemistry (and sometimes physics), so there is that as well. 

[Viridias]

The pectoral plate will still soak up some of the force of the pilum. 

 

And as for later armies, that was during the waning years of Rome, if I remember correctly. 

 

Then again, I care more about mathematics and chemistry (and sometimes physics), so there is that as well. 

 

Actually the pectoral plate would night certainly be summarily pucnhed through, we're talking something like three millimeters of bronze here. Lots of momentum concentrated behind a narrow tip was one of the few things with real chances of compromising even fully-developed steel plate armour.

 

"Later armies" here referred to the Late Republican (ca. 2nd to 1st century BC) to Middle Imperial (if that's the term, ca. 3rd century AD) period when Roman armies first gradually abandoned the old triplex acies division of the heavy infantry into three separate classes and, with the Marian reforms of 107 BC, made official the factuality of the old citizen levy having been replaced by a salaried professional army.

 

The armies of the final few centuries of the Western Empire looked little like their precedessors anyway, and had replaced the pilum with a rather similar but shorter-shanked weapon called, IIRC, spiculum. Very similar designs were nigh-universal among their "barbarian" opponents.

[Renegade343]

Actually the pectoral plate would night certainly be summarily pucnhed through, we're talking something like three millimeters of bronze here. Lots of momentum concentrated behind a narrow tip was one of the few things with real chances of compromising even fully-developed steel plate armour.

You would need more stronger, tempered iron for the tip of the spear to pierce through steel plate armour, which the pilum does not really have at the time. 

[Viridias]

You would need more stronger, tempered iron for the tip of the spear to pierce through steel plate armour, which the pilum does not really have at the time. 

 

I fail to see the relevance as proper steel plate armour didn't turn up before the end of the 1300s. And the narrow tips used to poke holes in *that* tended to be at the end of two-handed longswords and polearms.

[Renegade343]

I fail to see the relevance as proper steel plate armour didn't turn up before the end of the 1300s. And the narrow tips used to poke holes in *that* tended to be at the end of two-handed longswords and polearms.

I was saying the pilum would not pierce through steel plate armour. 

[Viridias]

I was saying the pilum would not pierce through steel plate armour. 

 

Didn't say it could, and it hardly needed to either. Just noted the general principles of armour-piercing weapons.

[Renegade343]

Didn't say it could, and it hardly needed to either. Just noted the general principles of armour-piercing weapons.

Until we see conventional RPGs (liquid copper shot out at high speeds in a narrow stream will emulate a spear) and reactive tank armour. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Renegade343

[Viridias]

Until we see conventional RPGs (liquid copper shot out at high speeds in a narrow stream will emulate a spear) and reactive tank armour. 

 

Ever heard of "long rod kinetic penetrators", or APFSDS to use the propur letter-soup monster, which is what the REAL tanks use on each other? Shaped charges are for ruddy mud-picking peasants and eggshell softskins that don't even lift.

[Viridias]

More on the original topic, I got thinking about the lance idea. On the face of it it's really pretty silly, as footmen don't really have the mass and weight to generate proper momentum behind a braced lance; there's a reason those were cavalry weapons and quite a bit of effort went into figuring out ways to keep the shaft from plain starting to slip from the rider's grip upon impact.

 

OTOH, something like Rhino's Charge or a horizontal application of Zephyr's Tailwind could probably generate useful amounts of force, but that seems kinda situational at best so meh.

 

But why be constrained by common sense? We already have a number of more or less impossibly functioning weapons, and this is a Rule of Cool setting with Sufficiently Advanced Technology. Take the Jat Kittag, also known as "Jet Kitty" in some circles; it's a honking big warhammer with a damn jet engine built in. Why not give your high-tech "foot lance" a set of rocket thrusters, maybe a set near the tip and another at the butt-end for balance? THAT ought to put enough Newtons behind the point to skewer stuff in a suitably spectacular fashion.

Only problem is I'm not really sure how this would work controls-wise, since you need to use it as a normal stabby spear too. The old charged-attack mechanic woulda been useful here... :c

[GStonez]

Vindictus uses practically a God Of War chain blade mechanic which is awesome but since i started playing warframe i stopped changing my bleeping IP address to play that bleeping game which is awesome but is locked for people not in Canada or the USA WARFRAME FOREVER AND AWESOME IDEAS