Discussing About Dark Sector Alliances Having Too High Taxes

[-VS-AtLasVegas]

there was no leniency given to SC, or anyone else affected by the ddos attacks. Which made them suffer a much larger loss. That being losing something the entire alliance fought for over a time period of connectivity problems brought on by malicious intent by an outside party. 

 

As much as I can admit some understanding of your other arguments - you fail on this one. They haven't lost through any connectivity problems and they have no right for any sort of leniency on this point. Everyone was affected through these problems and no one will be favored.

 

Furthermore they had nearly no loss through that defeat in contrary to Eclipse at the given time. Eclipse really fought for nearly every of their nodes, but SC (as SoV before)  never had any serious fights and most of the time they were covered by other alliances as a sign of goodwill for a community farm-spot (you would see how fast they would be down if they have raised the taxes even by 5%). Those "wins", that they had, are free rails and nothing that you should be proud of or even think of using as  a valid point in any argumentation.

 

As I said before: In this given System right now, SC would have loose their rail even much faster, if everyone could be able to login at that time.

Edited August 7, 2014 by -ExT-AtLasVegas

[DirkDeadeye]

Honestly I don't know why DE didn't roll back the results of all dark sector conflicts and refund the credits that alliances put up for battlepay (without taking them from players who ran the rails, because that would have just incited a riot) during the DDOS attacks. I can only assume it is incredibly difficult or impossible for them within the systems they are using. It was a tragedy that SC fell on sechura, as well as anyone else that suffered losses due to the DDOS.

A rollback wouldn't be hard to do. As it stands there are two parties. One is upset the other is not a rollback would just reverse the roles of whose upset. And set a prescient that they will not allow outside interference influence power struggles. And any attempt will be met with a reset. Which would spur the attackers to initiate more packet storms and help the authorities zero in on the parties responsible. Same reasoning when you administrate a web based service..bans take seconds new accounts take minutes. The powers that be have the upper hand given that their conflict resolution is nearly effortless.

In light of disregarding this instance which is equally or more damaging to the SC alliance and no steps have been taken I must protest the intervention on part of how they attempted to resolve skitz0's incident. They set prescient that they will intervene when the non existant rules have been broken but..I am now lead to believe that the motive behind that was their systems were not equipped to manage alliances and his ban was a knee jerk reaction followed by clairvoyance in that he has done nothing wrong.

[DirkDeadeye]

As much as I can admit some understanding of your other arguments - you fail on this one. They haven't lost through any connectivity problems and they have no right for any sort of leniency on this point. Everyone was affected through this problems and no one will be favored.

 

Furthermore they had nearly no loss through that defeat in contrary to Eclipse at the given time. Eclipse really fought for nearly every of their nodes, but SC (as SoV before)  never had any serious fights and most of the time they were covered by other alliances as a sign of goodwill for a community farm-spot (you would see how fast they would be down if they have raised the taxes even by 5%). Those "wins", that they had, are free rails and nothing that you should be proud of or even think of using as  a valid point in any argumentation.

 

As I said before: In this given System right now, SC would have loose their rail even much faster, if everyone could be able to login at that time.

SC was on the forefront of my statement but the ecosystem was affected. And a rollback was a prudent means to rectify the situation.

The system and now weather or not in a fair situation is conjecture given they weren't in an ideal environment. Myself and just about everyone I know including my clan could not log in, nor maintain connection. There were people who could. But there were large outages and those outages were borough upon by malicious intent by a third party. Allowing something like that to happen is bad sportsmanship, I agree sc would've lost but I think they should have lost with dignity.

[Drasiel]

A rollback wouldn't be hard to do. As it stands there are two parties. One is upset the other is not a rollback would just reverse the roles of whose upset. And set a prescient that they will not allow outside interference influence power struggles. And any attempt will be met with a reset. Which would spur the attackers to initiate more packet storms and help the authorities zero in on the parties responsible. Same reasoning when you administrate a web based service..bans take seconds new accounts take minutes. The powers that be have the upper hand given that their conflict resolution is nearly effortless.

In light of disregarding this instance which is equally or more damaging to the SC alliance and no steps have been taken I must protest the intervention on part of how they attempted to resolve skitz0's incident. They set prescient that they will intervene when the non existant rules have been broken but..I am now lead to believe that the motive behind that was their systems were not equipped to manage alliances and his ban was a knee jerk reaction followed by clairvoyance in that he has done nothing wrong.

 

I'm mostly wondering if the reason they didn't roll back was because they couldn't only roll back the darksectors,  it would have to have been universal. Granted I'm out of my depth on what is involved in maintaining, running and protecting servers.

 

The difference is Skitz is a player who caused enough disruption, upset and trouble to other players who sent in support tickets about it, and I'm sorry dirk but I have to emphatically disagree that he broke "non existent" rules. The rules are vague but definitely there, and they have been since I started playing with U7. Moving forward if DE plans to actually enforce those rules and not have backstabbing and covert ops be the real life meta of the DS be the standard. They will need to come down hard on that kind of behaviour when reported, what happened with skitz sucks for everyone involved (especially eclipse) but it's done. Moving forward DE needs to make it clearer to the community what kind of meta behaviour they deem unacceptable.

[-VS-AtLasVegas]

 There were people who could. But there were large outages and those outages were borough upon by malicious intent by a third party. Allowing something like that to happen is bad sportsmanship, I agree sc would've lost but I think they should have lost with dignity.

 

 

I find it funny, that you assume that all the people that could login belonged to the attackers right?! ICE couldn't. And of my 600ppl flist there were 4-6 online each time I came through the login. Those are much more than you and a couple of your friends. I don't ask you to believe me - but it would be an even greater massacre than you can imagine.

 

There is no bad sportsmanship - everything was fair play and SC had even a bit luck, that the attack was not at full force from the beginning on. 

Another great example was brought to you by Eclipse vs LotE. Were there any connection issues? Nope. Is Eclipse stronger than SC? Hell yes they are - no comparison. Have they lost their rail by presenting a 0% node? Yep - kind of a nice déjà vu, don't you think? 

Edited August 7, 2014 by -ExT-AtLasVegas

[-InV-Skitz0]

Actions speak louder than words. You were unbanned, and allowed to come back and continue enjoying yourself after your actions effected thousands of people. Glad you took responsibility for it, but its the principle behind it.

 

On top of that, the fact that they feel there is no permanent damage just goes to show how clueless they really are about their own game and community.

 

I stand by my statement.

First of all yes I took responsibility for the fact my actions hurt a lot of innocent people in Eclipse that had nutting to do with the corrupt upper management of Eclipse. It is to them and only to them I offer my apology, you did countless runs and donated countless credits to support the alliance and you got nothing but stepped on with no appreciation for your efforts. You deserve far better then I or anyone who you look up to for guidance could ever offer. While I don't expect or deserve your forgiveness I ask that you only look at the leaders that hold the power in your alliance, how they can on one face speak only with respect and love to an Allie who was there from the very beginning and then precede to talk about them as if they where a dog or coward behind their back after their departure.

 

Secondly having your account suspended for 2 weeks does in my book count as an action. When you log on to find your account with a pending 21 year suspension and your heart sinks into your stomach never expecting for it to see the light of day again. Also the next update after this all happened included the option to set the min/max amount of battle pay that a tactician can set, the fact that they changed the macnics of the game to limit the possibility of this being repeated combined with the 2 week suspension and the words from the devs is more then enough evidence for me to conclude that actions do in fact have consequences.

 

I did not post those s/s to take a jab at anyone here. I simply don't want to see anyone lose their account by taking actions that will get there self in trouble. Please be careful Tenno.

[DirkDeadeye]

I find it funny, that you assume that all the people that could login belonged to the attackers right?! ICE couldn't. And of my 600ppl flist there were 4-6 online each time I came through the login. Those are much more than you and a couple of your friends. I don't ask you to believe me - but it would be an even greater massacre than you can imagine.

 

There is no bad sportsmanship - everything was fair play and SC had even a bit luck, that the attack was not at full force from the beginning on. 

Another great example was brought to you by Eclipse vs LotE. Were there any connection issues? Nope. Is Eclipse stronger than SC? Hell yes they are - no comparison. Have they lost their rail by presenting a 0% node? Yep - kind of a nice déjà vu, don't you think?

All I know is what I saw. That's it. People tend to exaggerate and being a competition there's an element of bias on both parties myself included so unless I have a chart for de. I can't take anything literally. And I didn't say sc would win. But beyond sc which is still a problem and boosters and ecosystem it's a disservice not to roll it back

[-VS-AtLasVegas]

All I know is what I saw. That's it. People tend to exaggerate and being a competition there's an element of bias on both parties myself included so unless I have a chart for de. I can't take anything literally. And I didn't say sc would win. But beyond sc which is still a problem and boosters and ecosystem it's a disservice not to roll it back

 

And I say - being ofc biased as one of the involved - that the fact, that there was no rollback is a sign that it was fair play. The circumstances are not important. It is called force majeure and nobody is safe or can guarantee to be safe of it.

 

If there would be a great blackout in some country were all alliance members would live and they loose all rails while this is happening, there would be no rollback neither. A DDoS has the same weight like a blackout.

Edited August 7, 2014 by -ExT-AtLasVegas

[DirkDeadeye]

And I say - being ofc biased as one of the involved - that the fact, that there was no rollback is a sign that it was fair play. The circumstances are not important. It is called force majeure and nobody is safe or can guarantee to be safe of it.

 

If there would be a great blackout in some country were all alliance members would live and they loose all rails while this is happening, there would be no rollback neither. A DDoS has the same weight like a blackout.

I respect you and your opinions. I'd like to yield now. Because I would like to escape the stigma around me and we're not going to agree on this which is fine <3

[-VS-AtLasVegas]

I respect you and your opinions. I'd like to yield now. Because I would like to escape the stigma around me and we're not going to agree on this which is fine <3

 

Never mind.^^

[Faulcun]

While I don't expect or deserve your forgiveness I ask that you only look at the leaders that hold the power in your alliance, how they can on one face speak only with respect and love to an Allie who was there from the very beginning and then precede to talk about them as if they where a dog or coward behind their back after their departure.

 

 

Perhaps thats a stab at me, but ill own up to that 100%. Its no different than going AWOL while serving your country. You are looked upon as abandoning your brothers and sisters who are dedicated to holding the line. When the going gets tough, you dont leave your family behind.

 

Not only that, but I will take full responsibility for your actions too, Skitz0. I was the one who insisted on invictus getting their tactician privileges back to begin with. (if you remember, they were taken away from everybody because we were having an issue with taxes being changed randomly, and we were trying to figure out who was doing it). I was the one trying to get you to loosen up, calm down, and come back to us as a leader because you were wanting to leave your clan and all responsibilities of leadership.  I dont know if it was something that was planned from the beginning or at all, but I made a serious mistake in trust that day. 

 

So I apologize, again, to every member of eclipse who was still with us after that moment, for my grossly poor judgement.

 

Most of the clans that have departed did so because they felt eclipse was failing and beyond repair, or they didnt want to be around a toxic environment. In either case, none of them wanted to do what needed to be done to fix the problem.

 

I am happy to say, we have proven to everybody that they were mistaken. From the ashes, we have risen and rebuilt.  We are not the same eclipse people remember.

 

We are stronger than we ever were before.

[-InV-Skitz0]

Perhaps thats a stab at me, but ill own up to that 100%. Its no different than going AWOL while serving your country. You are looked upon as abandoning your brothers and sisters who are dedicated to holding the line. When the going gets tough, you dont leave your family behind.

 

Not only that, but I will take full responsibility for your actions too, Skitz0. I was the one who insisted on invictus getting their tactician privileges back to begin with. (if you remember, they were taken away from everybody because we were having an issue with taxes being changed randomly, and we were trying to figure out who was doing it). I was the one trying to get you to loosen up, calm down, and come back to us as a leader because you were wanting to leave your clan and all responsibilities of leadership.  I dont know if it was something that was planned from the beginning or at all, but I made a serious mistake in trust that day. 

 

So I apologize, again, to every member of eclipse who was still with us after that moment, for my grossly poor judgement.

 

Most of the clans that have departed did so because they felt eclipse was failing and beyond repair, or they didnt want to be around a toxic environment. In either case, none of them wanted to do what needed to be done to fix the problem.

 

I am happy to say, we have proven to everybody that they were mistaken. From the ashes, we have risen and rebuilt.  We are not the same eclipse people remember.

 

We are stronger than we ever were before.

I'm not trying to take a stab at you or anyone. Their are more guilty of this then just you my old friend. And while your statement of abandonment does hold some truth to it, there is a huge difference from telling that to someones face when they leave and waiting till they are gone and doing it behind their back, and you know as well as I do the words that came out of your mouth there where no ware near that nice.

 

Also not even you can honestly disagree with the hard work Invictus did running 24 hour shifts setting battle pay and being tacticians. It wasn't a favor by the grace of Falco who kept us in that seat, is was are willingness to do the work and for me and rings to pull 12 hour shifts covering all of the rails. To our merit not one rail was lost on our watch (besides that whole inverting the battle pay fiasco). Even after Invictus left this is why you begged for Rings to return.

 

And yes I reached my breaking point, when I saw the way you treated our friends who had been in the alliance from the start  I snapped. I realized I was guilty of the same thing that made me want to vomit when I heard it come out of your mouth albeit with different people. I was consumed with a meta that was close to purgatory that we all had created from our own hands. Your only mistake as far as I was concerned that day, besides the slander behind closed doors was not letting me walk away. I  asked you why you wanted to talk down to me and turn me into an enemy and what did you do? you dared me to do my worst. Well we all know what happened next. I even went as far to contact every opposing tactican after that and help instruct them step by step to victory.

 

I'm glad to hear and see you guys are doing well. I even had a smile on my face when I saw you win Sechura. I don't hate you or anyone in Eclipse. im not asking us to get along and let bygones be bygones your ego would never allow for that. But we can't keep up with this back and forth derailing topics as we go. I apologize for quoting your first post, I just didn't want people to think they can do what I did and not risk recourse.

 

If there is anything else you need to get off your chest to fell some sense of closure go ahead and throw it out there. You can even send me a PM if you are as tired as I am of airing out each others dirty laundry here for all to see.

Edited August 7, 2014 by -ExT-Skitz0

[Faulcun]

I'm not trying to take a stab at you or anyone. Their are more guilty of this then just you my old friend. And while your statement of abandonment does hold some truth to it, there is a huge difference from telling that to someones face when they leave and waiting till they are gone and doing it behind their back, and you know as well as I do the words that came out of your mouth there where no ware near that nice.

 

Also not even you can honestly disagree with the hard work Invictus did running 24 hour shifts setting battle pay and being tacticians. It wasn't a favor by the grace of Falco who kept us in that seat, is was are willingness to do the work and for me and rings to pull 12 hour shifts covering all of the rails. To our merit not one rail was lost on our watch (besides that whole inverting the battle pay fiasco). Even after Invictus left this is why you begged for Rings to return.

 

And yes I reached my breaking point, when I saw the way you treated our friends who had been in the alliance from the start  I snapped. I realized I was guilty of the same thing that made me want to vomit when I heard it come out of your mouth albeit with different people. I was consumed with a meta that was close to purgatory that we all had created from our own hands. Your only mistake as far as I was concerned that day, besides the slander behind closed doors was not letting me walk away. I  asked you why you wanted to talk down to me and turn me into an enemy and what did you do? you dared me to do my worst. Well we all know what happened next. I even went as far to contact every opposing tactican after that and help instruct them step by step to victory.

 

I'm glad to hear and see you guys are doing well. I even had a smile on my face when I saw you win Sechura. I don't hate you or anyone in Eclipse. im not asking us to get along and let bygones be bygones your ego would never allow for that. But we can't keep up with this back and forth derailing topics as we go. I apologize for quoting your first post, I just didn't want people to think they can do what I did and not risk recourse.

 

If there is anything else you need to get off your chest to fell some sense of closure go ahead and throw it out there. You can even send me a PM if you are as tired as I am of airing out each others dirty laundry here for all to see.

 

I dont mind people knowing the truth. But for the record, I have never had an issue telling to somebody's face what I think, and I have never filtered my words. And no, my words were no where near that nice. You and I both were very angry about a great many things, among other people. I couldnt fathom making a promise to thousands of people, and turning tail and running away.

 

I asked ring to come back because I had still trusted him at the time, he is one of the smartest people I know, and I considered him a real friend. I also believed he had the resolve to help rebuild the damage and that he had faith in what he helped create from the beginning and wouldnt abandon the people who looked up to him.  Not because of his willingness to stay up for hours at a time. Either way, I was very wrong about a lot of things.

 

Oh and I never had anything negative to say about you until you pulled your stunt after ring yelled at you to leave. Anything I did have to say to you ive already said directly to you, after the fact. At THAT point, I agree, I dared you to do your worst.

 

And its not my ego that wouldnt allow a "bygones", its the respect I have for the people with us now, and the respect we have for ourselves.

[-InV-Skitz0]

I dont mind people knowing the truth. But for the record, I have never had an issue telling to somebody's face what I think, and I have never filtered my words. And no, my words were no where near that nice. You and I both were very angry about a great many things, among other people. I couldnt fathom making a promise to thousands of people, and turning tail and running away.

 

I asked ring to come back because I had still trusted him at the time, he is one of the smartest people I know, and I considered him a real friend. I also believed he had the resolve to help rebuild the damage and that he had faith in what he helped create from the beginning and wouldnt abandon the people who looked up to him.  Not because of his willingness to stay up for hours at a time. Either way, I was very wrong about a lot of things.

 

Oh and I never had anything negative to say about you until you pulled your stunt after ring yelled at you to leave. Anything I did have to say to you ive already said directly to you, after the fact. At THAT point, I agree, I dared you to do your worst.

 

And its not my ego that wouldnt allow a "bygones", its the respect I have for the people with us now, and the respect we have for ourselves.

I'm sorry man but that is not what you did that day. You where nothing but respectful to their face and as soon as they left the raidcall you began to talk mad trash about them. Deny it all you like THIS did happen.

 

Is this justification for me throwing a hissy fit and committing sabotage? no.  Is this the sole reason I did it? again, no. 

 

This was just a mirror held to my face revealing what I had become. We took a simple game mechanic and molded it into some twisted meta that had become A horrible doctrine that we preached from our pulpits  We where so consumed by our own success, that we DEMANDED complete cooperation from our followers and shunned all that dare voice any objection. None of us cared if our members where having fun or enjoying the game. We demanded they run the rails and donate their credits, any that stated otherwise where just slapped in the faced or banished from the kingdom. Hell man we wouldn't even allow them to  trade items or host runs in the alliance chat because it drew attention away from our goals.Every meeting was filled with hours of endless ego trips, and our rules began to have rules until we started to choke to death on endless mounds of red tape.

 

Say anything you want negative about the tax of ICE, You know whats good about ice. We encourage are members to have fun. We ask for those who only want to run rails to run them we have never forced anyone to do anything that they did not like. The alliance chat is full of people who enjoy trading and hosting. I have never even seen as much as one lude comment in there. Our primary goal, Believe it or not is for every member to enjoy the game and to strengthen the bound of brother/sister hood. Do this and it does not matter if you own one or all of the sectors for your success is beyond measure and nothing is of higher value.

Edited August 7, 2014 by -ExT-Skitz0

[ConsummateVs]

Remember how much we hated Eclipse a month ago, and how good things seem in hindsight. Without Eclipse, who can keep the greedy milk from flowing? (Let's not lie to ourselves, the fall of Eclipse is entirely to blame for the current situation).

[Drasiel]

Remember how much we hated Eclipse a month ago, and how good things seem in hindsight. Without Eclipse, who can keep the greedy milk from flowing? (Let's not lie to ourselves, the fall of Eclipse is entirely to blame for the current situation).

 

funnily enough this is probably true. With eclipse playing the part of the "big bad" It really helped unify the rest of the alliances and clans that held rails into an unspoken agreement of lower taxes than eclipse.

 

Clearly the only solution is that we need to all help Eclipse take back at least 8 nodes so we can all live in harmony once again! :D (this is a light-hearted joke, since tone and body language are impossible via text based communication)

[Faulcun]

I'm sorry man but that is not what you did that day. You where nothing but respectful to their face and as soon as they left the raidcall you began to talk mad trash about them. Deny it all you like THIS did happen.

 

Is this justification for me throwing a hissy fit and committing sabotage? no.  Is this the sole reason I did it? again, no. 

 

 

I remember being concerned about you leaving and why you were so upset. I dont remember the details of the conversation. So ill neither confirm nor deny it. I do know all 5 of us in that channel were angry and upset about a lot of things going on. So ill say its very possible I had some things to say that reflected that. When you flee your country because you are afraid of it, you are called a refugee. When you turn your back on your country because it no longer suits your agenda, you are called a traitor.

 

If I was less colorful when I spoke to them, it was because I was asked to be in case they ever decided to come back. I think its pretty clear there is no chance of that happening, nor would we have an interest in that anyways as im sure all of you feel the same way.

 

In either case, I disagree with ring. I think the community can learn something from our mistakes in the past. As ive stated, Eclipse is nothing like what it used to be.

[DirkDeadeye]

But Eclipse was what I say they were. And now I can stop spewing my vitriol being validated. :P

[-VS-AtLasVegas]

But Eclipse was what I say they were. And now I can stop spewing my vitriol being validated. :P

 

Nobody validated your past comments. There are several point of views and yours was one of them.