When Serration,hornet Strike And Multishot Will Be Finally Removed Or Revamped?

[Vastaren]

Ah, "illusion of choice". As soon as you replace those damage mods, something else will be "necessary" and you'll be right back here complaining about the "illusion of choice". This is the result of shallow foresight; the next thing along in build priority will also be in the same situation, and then the next, on and on and on.

 

This is what I like to call the "illusion of revelation".

Ideally, there wouldn't be a 'build priority', just build diversity, which is what we're trying to tackle here, rather than focus simply on being caught up with the 'illusion of revelation' in believing this simple change will fix the system as a whole. It may not, but in scaling back/removing/modifying Serration, we would remove the illusion of choice by making it a fair consideration, which is already a change the system would welcome.

 

You do raise a valid, if not sound, concern. There is a definite possibility that in doing so, we expose the overreliance people will find upon another mod. Logically, though, your argument is based upon the assumption that there is a well-defined hierarchy and that, to make an analogy, taking the most wanted terrorist on the list out would necessarily absolve all the others as we go down. Is this applicable? Not necessarily, you haven't made the link juuuust yet.

[Acos]

The general solution I have arrived to is that most mods should do damage, enough to justify them over pure damage mods. For example, something like Fast Hands might have a +0.3 damage modifier attached to it in addition to the original effect, while elemental mods would have a the usual +0.9 modifier. The idea then is that "utility" mods still offer enough damage to be viable against enemies, but that pure damage mods would still exist for when you either don't need utility, or if you *decide* to place more emphasis on higher potential damage. 

Generally, I would divide mods into increments of 0/0.3/0.6/0.9 based on what sort of utility they offer, and the rarity associated with them. So a pure elemental mod would modify damage values by 90%. Fast Hands would have its' original effect and modify damage by 30%. Split Diffusion is very powerful (essentially doubling damage), and would have no additional damage effect. 

*EDIT: I also had an idea for a mod "synthesis" (crafting) system. Basically you'd start with the normal mod, and then add effects to it. In the case of a 90% mod, adding something like Fast Hands would reduce the effects of both mods by 2/3, so if you were to synthesis Fast Hands + Hellfire, the resulting mod would have a 60% extra fire damage and 20% reload speed. If you were to then to synthesis Speed Trigger into the mod the resulting mod would have 30% extra fire damage, 10% reload speed, and 20% fire rate. At this point the mod has reached maximum synthesis and can no longer have other mods added to it. 

While this is a bit more involved, it also gives a lot more freedom to how we make our builds and vastly improves the available room for playing with the modding system and the desire to obtain multiples of the same mod (increasing longevity/farming *boo hiss*). Compared to the previous suggestion, it also stops further power creep in areas we already over perform in by not suddenly adding a bunch of 0.3 and 0.6 modifiers to existing mods. 

 

Edited August 13, 2014 by Acos

[Moderius]

You do raise a valid, if not sound, concern. 

 

I like how you call it not "sound", based on your terrible analogy. My argument is just as sound, if not more so, than your own, because it's grounded in reality; there will be something that comes next for people to complain isn't "player choice". Speed Trigger, Shred, crit mods, what else will be next on the short-sighted chopping block? Or are we just pretending that won't happen to lend credibility to your argument, which entirely relies on that not being a thing?

 

Do I really need to touch on how Serration and other mods of similar function mark player progression and time investment and reward with incremental increases in effectiveness? How every game will have a "standard" that players will aim for, from Serration in Warframe to Flash in League of Legends that people very certain that they know better will always say that shouldn't exist.

 

I will always find it funny, though; championing "player choice" by way of removing the choice to have something or not. 

[Alphafox]

I like how you call it not "sound", based on your terrible analogy. My argument is just as sound, if not more so, than your own, because it's grounded in reality; there will be something that comes next for people to complain isn't "player choice". Speed Trigger, Shred, crit mods, what else will be next on the short-sighted chopping block? Or are we just pretending that won't happen to lend credibility to your argument, which entirely relies on that not being a thing?

 

Do I really need to touch on how Serration and other mods of similar function mark player progression and time investment and reward with incremental increases in effectiveness? How every game will have a "standard" that players will aim for, from Serration in Warframe to Flash in League of Legends that people very certain that they know better will always say that shouldn't exist.

 

I will always find it funny, though; championing "player choice" by way of removing the choice to have something or not. 

Removing a choice that we never had in the first place? Please show me a build without serration that work well in the first place. Using Serration is not a choice it's necessary to complete any content. 

When we had our 1st mod revamp why do you think people got angry about RNG? Because Serration is so important that no build can be even considered without it.

 

Adding more freedom to the way players can make their build by making Serration something simply given when you level up a weapon is such a bad thing?(Make it just like when we gain Shield/Health for frames as we level up)

Adding more utility mods would fix your concern. Dude mods will still be there, progression will still be there, it's not going anywhere. I thought that mastery rank,amount of frames and weapons was our way to show pregression. 

[BloodhawkVak]

I personnaly think this is not the right question too ask. The way you see it is: required mods so less diversity. I think about it in another way. What makes a level rank 12 different from a 7 ? Mods ans more specificaly mod's ranks. The question isnt whos notre using them but who is notre using them max leveled ? And right here the answer is a lot of players.

Also what if warframe was the same game you know but had always been without these mods but only 6 mods slots ? What would be the whine about ?

[Alphafox]

I personnaly think this is not the right question too ask. The way you see it is: required mods so less diversity. I think about it in another way. What makes a level rank 12 different from a 7 ? Mods ans more specificaly mod's ranks. The question isnt whos notre using them but who is notre using them max leveled ? And right here the answer is a lot of players.

Also what if warframe was the same game you know but had always been without these mods but only 6 mods slots ? What would be the whine about ?

I'm not sure of what you are saying right there.

[MeduSalem]

Ah, "illusion of choice". As soon as you replace those damage mods, something else will be "necessary" and you'll be right back here complaining about the "illusion of choice". This is the result of shallow foresight; the next thing along in build priority will also be in the same situation, and then the next, on and on and on.

 

This is what I like to call the "illusion of revelation".

 

You are right about that to some extend... there might be another mod that becomes "mandatory" after removing said mods.

 

The problem there is... stuff that only increases damage but has no tactical value/trade-off attached shouldn't exist in the first place. They only provoke DPS hogging.

 

For example... If stuff like Serration, Split Chamber and Speed Trigger wouldn't exist then the next in the line would probably be Elementals.

 

But those have one major difference from the first three mentioned damage mods: Their effectiveness is depending which faction you are opposing... so you have to put a thought into what you are using and in which combination.

 

Though I would suggest limiting the maximum number of physical/elemental damage mods you can have at a time to 4  and the other 4 slots would become utility slots out of the box because there's not much else left that could push Damage other than fast hands, magazine warp or all the corrupted mods and they only increase reliability rather than straight damage. Something that utility is supposed to do.

 

Same applies to Heavy Caliber for example. You may use that to increase the base damage, but the spread of some guns should be SO ugly that you start wasting so many bullets and thereby ammo that you may reconsider using it in the first place.

 

 

 

The only other way to stop people to solely rely on damage boosting mods is basically if adding more and more damage would have a diminishing return (a logarithmic curve or something) and/or a punishing effect (like for example increased chance for your weapon to jam) so that you have to balance your weapon out and probably remove some of the damage mods so your weapon becomes reliable again.

 

 

 

Basically there has to be made a trade-off somewhere to make "Build Variety" a thing.

Edited August 13, 2014 by MeduSalem

[Vastaren]

- snip -

I don't know, I just haven't seen anything on which to base the assumption that there will be "something that comes next for people to complain isn't "player choice"". Grounded in reality in what way? At best, it's no more speculation than you claim my argument to be, as I see the way its been explained to me (aside: what makes my analogy terrible? I think it's applicable to try and visualise what you're saying). My argument doesn't rely entirely on the assumption that there won't be another mod springing up to take its place. Would it change my premise if there were one? Not necessarily. My argument is against those mods in general which appear to present a choice, but don't really. When I make mention of the fact that Mag Warp and Fast Hands make up a dilemma where players can weigh in on both sides, this is me clarifying it in a situational context.

Yes, you do raise a valid point about the possibility for the emergence of another mod that players will flock to, but no, I don't think any other mod is as clearly presented as a false choice than Serration and Split Chamber are. Neither am I trying to pretend it's not a possibility to lend credibility, I don't need to. It's just that I don't see the hierarchy you assume there is for your point to be sound given the current circumstances. Will Speed Trigger and/or Shred by necessity be used in builds? What about weapons that do not rely heavily upon firerate, such as semiautomatics which may benefit more from a damage-per-round augmented by faction bane mods? Will crit mods by necessity be installed on all weapons regardless of base crit chance/damage? These are the types of questions I think the mod system should provoke, and if one of these mods - situationally viable, unlike Serration/Split Chamber, which is always desirable on all weapons, all the time - are called out for being too OP, then that's where I'm going to draw the line.

Mods as a mark of progression? I could consider them less of an indicator of player effort than is the Mastery Rank system, plagued with issues though it may be. Mods can be traded and bought, and aren't necessarily a truthful indicator of progression, which I'm gonna go ahead and define as the stages in which a player can tackle content proportionate to both their gearing, knowledge of the game, and application of that knowledge. I'm gonna do what you say not to, and say that incremental increases in effectiveness stemming from only one of those components of progression shouldn't be defining progression over aiding it. I'm not precluding the idea of a progression system that works, but I feel that using mods to mark progression is a bit off.

Championing player choice by way of removing a roadblock to choice would be a better definition. Serration and Split Chamber as they are can never claim to add anything but the illusion of choice, the argument against which has been quite subtly deflected. Asking players to choose not to add on pure damage modifiers to an item that by definition applies damage isn't really presenting a choice, especially with no alternatives and no room for the system to allow for alternatives.

[Arabaxus]

What everyone seems to not understand is how Serration is the fundamental "weapon progression" in the game. "Tie weapon damage to weapon level" is simply giving each weapon its own Serration mod and making each weapon have to be the highest level to be of maximum effectiveness, which would actually increase the time consumption, since it is about the same as having a fresh Serration for every weapon. 

Take for example, what if every rifle had two "power cores", one for damage and one for Multishot, and these cores were locked to the weapon. To increase these, you would need to put Fusion cores into these "power cores". Then each rifle would also have only 6 Mod Slots for other mods, elementals, status, utility, etc. would go in here. Weapon Progression is a thing, and its these very fundamental mods that allow for said weapon progression. The only difference is that instead of giving us 6 slots and 2 universal slots, we are allowed the privilege to remove said "power cores" if we so desire, alongside the fact DE doesn't make us sink time and resources into funding new "power cores" for each new weapon.

 

Beyond Serration and Split Chamber for rifles, and a similar thing for Pistols, beyond that what you put on is of your own discretion. With 30 some other mods for both pistols and rifles, 5 slots for Pistols and 6 slots for Rifles, Pistols have well over one hundred thousand different combinations and rifles well over one million different combination for mods, which is much larger than any number of combinations we would go through in our Warframe career.

What it seems to me, these complaints, are stemmed from a vocal minority, some of which have some vice against the fact Serration has 10 ranks and requires a lot of work to bring to its fullest potential, alongside with Hornet Strike, and the bit of farming that goes into acquiring Split Chamber and the other Multishot mods. Want to know why I think this?

 

Every time this thread, or any thread of this matter appears, the complaints are always about Pistols and Rifles, Serration, Split Chamber, Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, and Lethal Torrent.

 

No one ever complains about Shotguns, where Point Blank and Hell's Chamber are just as essential as Serration and Split Chamber to a shotgun.

No one ever complains about Pressure Point, which is just as essential to Melee weapons.

 

So why are all the complaints purely focused on Pistols and Rifles? If proponents of said argument were about mod diversity, and about diversity in general, they would surely not simply neglect a similar issue with the other weapon types. What are the differences from the two poster children and melee and shotguns? Let's examine it.

 

Rifles: 2 "essential" mods

1 Uncommon, Max rank 10

1 Rare, Max rank 5

 

Pistols: 3 "essential" mods

1 Uncommon, Max rank 10

2 Rare, Max ranks 5

 

These are the two poster children.

 

Now let's look at the two weapon types that are commonly "neglected" or are conveniently left out in these debates all the time.

 

Shotguns: 2 "essential" mods

1 Uncommon, Max rank 5

1 Rare, Max rank 5

 

Melee: 1 "essential" mod

1 Common, Max rank 5

 

The two types that complaints are always directed to are also the two mods with Uncommon Rank 10 mods and are conveniently the two that require the most time and material investment.

 

Even if we ignore this glaring point, let me raise one question. Where do these complaints stop? Remove damage and multishot, and Rate of Fire mods will be the new "essential" mod for DPS, alongside with elementals with 90% bonuses. So what? Because increasing rate of fire expends ammunition faster, which if we are to be perfectly honest, with the ammunition drop rates for Rifles and Pistols, is almost never an issue save for a few rare cases, it will be just fine for this to become the new DPS mod.

 

The forum's representation of the vocal minority complains about no diversity, and you want the last two or three mod slots to build your gear, correct? What if Rifles had 10 mod slots and Pistols 11, and you would have your eight slots to put in whatever you want, and the "essentials" can stay. This would give the minority an alternative which is essentially equivalent to their request right now, but what would they do? They would complain that they are "essential" and want the extra mod slots to do what they want with them. The only thing the minority is actually asking for is not "variety", but complete removal of choice of whether or not Serration and Multishot are applied to a weapon. If they are linked to something like weapon levels, which is one of the common proposals, what if I want to play with a weak weapon in a low level area, but my weapon is already level 30? I can't reduce the damage it does. The other issue is that then instead of having an essential mod(s), the only "essential" will have to be that the weapon is max ranked, which is the same problem disguised in another form. Having a Serration now is like having a leveled up weapon, but in this form DE is allowing us to not have to "relevel" the weapon, and thus, unlike in many other MMOs, leveling equipment to maximum level can be done in a rather reasonable, even short time-frame.

 

Let me propose this in the simplest way possible. Suppose each weapon worked the same fashion as it does now leveling, with leveling giving more points to equip mods. 

 

Your rifle has six mod slots, and there are two stats, Weapon Damage and Weapon Multishot, the first of which has 10 ranks and the second of which has 5. Maxing out Weapon Damage would cost the same number of credits and fusion cores as it currently does a Serration, and maxing out Weapon Multishot would cost the same number of credits and fusion cores as it does a Split Chamber.

 

This would remove the issue of "essential" mods, by drilling in these two stats and ground and infinite, unchangeable. The only difference is each weapon comes with their own "Serration" and "Split Chamber".

 

Would this be OK? This addresses the issue of them being "essential" because they are now innate with every weapon and cannot be swapped out even if we so desired to sacrifice damage output or "viability", wouldn't it? What if they were drilled in, and you got 8 mod slots a weapon? Wouldn't it give you the exact same versatility as your stated desires? It would. There's no more "illusion of choice" now is there? There wouldn't be, because you don't get a choice. Now that they are cemented in, and you have the eight slots to build for diversity as much as you want, which is equivalent to the end result of removing Serration/Hornet Strike and Multishot mods. Would this solution satisfy the minority who complains about the current system, even though it addresses the root of the problem by removing it? No. Everyone wants weapon damage/multishot to be linked to some other method, it cannot take fusion cores and credits, it must be linked to something we have 100% chance to gather indefinitely (see the proposed damage is proportionate to weapon level posts). Serration/Hornet Strike aren't a sign of progression and can be bought with platinum? In my example, you wouldn't be able to buy them anymore, since they are locked to a weapon. Then they would be truly signs of progression.

 

 

All this seems to me are a bunch of players who do not want to use materials and credits to put ranks into their Serration and Hornet Strikes, and are cloaking this desire into an argument that takes "mod diversity" as an excuse to remove one of the biggest time consumers in this game, gathering materials to rank up Hornet Strike and Serration. 

DE could have easily used my hypothetical situation as their method of weapon progression, and it would have encouraged greater time-sinking by the playerbase every time they wanted to work with a new weapon. But they didn't. Instead, they made it so our hard work would not only benefit one weapon, but could be applied to any other weapon, with the only cost being a slight time investment in leveling.

 

If you have a complaint, say it bluntly. Don't try to hide it behind some false excuses, because it's frankly pushing the community into the wrong direction.

 

Edit:

 

 

Same applies to Heavy Caliber for example. You may use that to increase the base damage, but the spread of some guns should be SO ugly that you start wasting so many bullets and thereby ammo that you may reconsider using it in the first place.

 

 

Heavy Caliber already does that. If you use Heavy Caliber on Paris Prime, Dread, or Latron Prime, or on any ranged precision weapon for that matter, you are not taking full advantage of their true damage potential through headshots.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Arabaxus

[fatpig84]

My Nova / Loki / Ash / Booben etc doesn't even use those Redirection and Vitality

[The_Traitor_Executioner]

Seriously why are they even in the game? They ''waste'' a mod and they are pretty much the one of the things that stop build diversity to be possible right now. Remove them and add the stat directly to the weapons and frames.

For the people who invested in them (I'm one of them too) give them a new mod (That is not exclusive) or give them a legendary core.

 

What we have right now is the illusion of choice. No one would take Fast hands,Ammo drum,etc. You think you have a choice because of those 8 mods slots. Sadly your selection is reduced at 6 mods.

 

To all the people that say's that they are ''meta mods'' I will explain you why they are not. The meta is when you use the optimal build to get the best results. In the case of serration,there is no other choice,it's the only way to increase your weapon damage. This is not a ''meta mod'' this is a requirement.

Why are they still there?

 

Edit:Clarity 

Edit: Illusion of choice

Edit:Small explanation on the definition of meta.

 

No.

 

No, no, no, no.

 

This is a terrible idea.  A damage mod is needed for higher tier missions.  Ditto for health and shield mods.  You are wrong in so many ways with this post.  If it's not 'hardcore enough' for you, then take away the mods from your own build.

[Alphafox]

No.

 

No, no, no, no.

 

This is a terrible idea.  A damage mod is needed for higher tier missions.  Ditto for health and shield mods.  You are wrong in so many ways with this post.  If it's not 'hardcore enough' for you, then take away the mods from your own build.

*Sigh* Please tell me why i'm wrong, back up your ''arguments'' and I can clearly see that you did not read further than the title.

[K0bra]

Leave them alone.So much lazy ppl here.I remeber that idea from a beginner who was to lazy to max a Rank 10 mod.Now so much want that?

Work for it or your weapons are never be very strong.Your problem.

Im always happy to put my hard worked mod inside my gun.

Edited August 13, 2014 by K0bra

[Alphafox]

Leave them alone.So much lazy ppl here.I remeber that idea from a beginner who was to lazy to max a Rank 10 mod.Now so much want that?

Work for it or your weapons are never be very strong.Your problem.

I'm far from a beginner in that game. I don't see why asking for something to be revamped is seen as lazy. I got all of those mods maxed. They serve no purpose except taking a mod slot. 

[The_Traitor_Executioner]

*Sigh* Please tell me why i'm wrong, back up your ''arguments'' and I can clearly see that you did not read further than the title.

I read the entire thread.  You basically said "Nerf the 'meta builds' (definitely air quotes around that one) because they're not exactly what I enjoy."  If you don't like these mods, don't use them.  Nobody is forcing you to use them, least of all the game.  

[Alphafox]

I read the entire thread.  You basically said "Nerf the 'meta builds' (definitely air quotes around that one) because they're not exactly what I enjoy."  If you don't like these mods, don't use them.  Nobody is forcing you to use them, least of all the game.  

You don't use the term ''meta'' in the right context. ''Meta build'' is something optional to make a optimal build. Serration, Hornet Strike etc is none of those. They are required for ANY weapons. Without those it would be the equivalent of throwing noodles to a tank, useless. This is where the problem rise. Those 2 mods could be innate(Could be aquired by leveling up your weapon.)

 

I'm not asking for a nerf, far from it. I'm asking for more variety in builds. You don't want that?

 

If this is what you understood after ''reading all the thread'' nothing I will say after that could make you understand how wrong you are.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Alphafox

[Arabaxus]

I read the entire thread.  You basically said "Nerf the 'meta builds' (definitely air quotes around that one) because they're not exactly what I enjoy."  If you don't like these mods, don't use them.  Nobody is forcing you to use them, least of all the game.  

 

Same complaints happened to launchers and look at what happened. This minority ruined something they like, Torid, due to their own selfish complaints. Now imagine the same nonsense happening to something as universal and important as the mod system.

[MeduSalem]

Heavy Caliber already does that. If you use Heavy Caliber on Paris Prime, Dread, or Latron Prime, or on any ranged precision weapon for that matter, you are not taking full advantage of their true damage potential through headshots.

 

The effect is only barely noticeable for me and I've a maxed-out one just because I love the Ignis. But for the sake of curiosity I put it on my Grinlok as well as some others... and I pretty much didn't notice any difference. I rarely missed a headshot or only as much as I would miss them without using Heavy Caliber. At least I didn't feel like I have to force-counter the effect in anyway. Pretty much felt like Serration 2, but I stopped using it on other weapons apart from the Ignis because of the mod costs. xD

 

That said I'm not as much as a DPS hog as I used to be when I started playing Warframe. So that's why I can easily live without all the extra damage... because it's not needed on the Star Chart anyways and it only comes in handy when doing long Survival/Defense runs.

 

So my review about Heavy Caliber is: The thing should be much more punishing. It should be literally a gambler's mod with like 50% chance of the shot not hitting even if you are dead-centered. It should make your rifles feel like you are using a Shotgun but with only 1 bullet that sprays all over the place and maybe interesting for crowd control. ^^

Edited August 13, 2014 by MeduSalem

[K0bra]

@Alpha

Yeah and damage mods deserve mod slots or we can start with put all mods out like higher the weapon faster we reload.Higher the weapon more ammo we have inside.Its bs in my eyes.I like the system and it works very well.Alot people play Warframe and would be the system so horrific there wasnt so much players here.

[Alphafox]

Same complaints happened to launchers and look at what happened. This minority ruined something they like, Torid, due to their own selfish complaints. Now imagine the same nonsense happening to something as universal and important as the mod system.

Please tell me how this is selfish. I'm asking for a quality of life update for everyone. You would not lose your damage,you would not lose anything at all.

 

@K0bra Seriously I did not understand your post at all can you make it clearer please?

Edited August 13, 2014 by Alphafox

[Demon-King-Lamb]

The mods that boost the damage on such high scale is cause of the High level enemies people enjoy fighting against. With out those mods, you'll just be wasting bullets on enemies as they laugh at you. Have you not fought again the lvl 70 Heavies in the Void? They are a pain to kill. Even with the most OP weapon you got. And the enemies weaknesses don't matter. It doesn't effect them much to even matter. Moar damage does!!

[Alphafox]

The mods that boost the damage on such high scale is cause of the High level enemies people enjoy fighting against. With out those mods, you'll just be wasting bullets on enemies as they laugh at you. Have you not fought again the lvl 70 Heavies in the Void? They are a pain to kill. Even with the most OP weapon you got. And the enemies weaknesses don't matter. It doesn't effect them much to even matter. Moar damage does!!

Please read the OP instead of the title only.

[Arabaxus]

Please tell me how this is selfish. I'm asking for a quality of life update for everyone. You would not lose your damage,you would not lose anything at all.

 

@K0bra Seriously I did not understand your post at all can you make it clearer please?

 

 

What everyone seems to not understand is how Serration is the fundamental "weapon progression" in the game. "Tie weapon damage to weapon level" is simply giving each weapon its own Serration mod and making each weapon have to be the highest level to be of maximum effectiveness, which would actually increase the time consumption, since it is about the same as having a fresh Serration for every weapon. 

Take for example, what if every rifle had two "power cores", one for damage and one for Multishot, and these cores were locked to the weapon. To increase these, you would need to put Fusion cores into these "power cores". Then each rifle would also have only 6 Mod Slots for other mods, elementals, status, utility, etc. would go in here. Weapon Progression is a thing, and its these very fundamental mods that allow for said weapon progression. The only difference is that instead of giving us 6 slots and 2 universal slots, we are allowed the privilege to remove said "power cores" if we so desire, alongside the fact DE doesn't make us sink time and resources into funding new "power cores" for each new weapon.

 

Beyond Serration and Split Chamber for rifles, and a similar thing for Pistols, beyond that what you put on is of your own discretion. With 30 some other mods for both pistols and rifles, 5 slots for Pistols and 6 slots for Rifles, Pistols have well over one hundred thousand different combinations and rifles well over one million different combination for mods, which is much larger than any number of combinations we would go through in our Warframe career.

What it seems to me, these complaints, are stemmed from a vocal minority, some of which have some vice against the fact Serration has 10 ranks and requires a lot of work to bring to its fullest potential, alongside with Hornet Strike, and the bit of farming that goes into acquiring Split Chamber and the other Multishot mods. Want to know why I think this?

 

Every time this thread, or any thread of this matter appears, the complaints are always about Pistols and Rifles, Serration, Split Chamber, Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, and Lethal Torrent.

 

No one ever complains about Shotguns, where Point Blank and Hell's Chamber are just as essential as Serration and Split Chamber to a shotgun.

No one ever complains about Pressure Point, which is just as essential to Melee weapons.

 

So why are all the complaints purely focused on Pistols and Rifles? If proponents of said argument were about mod diversity, and about diversity in general, they would surely not simply neglect a similar issue with the other weapon types. What are the differences from the two poster children and melee and shotguns? Let's examine it.

 

Rifles: 2 "essential" mods

1 Uncommon, Max rank 10

1 Rare, Max rank 5

 

Pistols: 3 "essential" mods

1 Uncommon, Max rank 10

2 Rare, Max ranks 5

 

These are the two poster children.

 

Now let's look at the two weapon types that are commonly "neglected" or are conveniently left out in these debates all the time.

 

Shotguns: 2 "essential" mods

1 Uncommon, Max rank 5

1 Rare, Max rank 5

 

Melee: 1 "essential" mod

1 Common, Max rank 5

 

The two types that complaints are always directed to are also the two mods with Uncommon Rank 10 mods and are conveniently the two that require the most time and material investment.

 

Even if we ignore this glaring point, let me raise one question. Where do these complaints stop? Remove damage and multishot, and Rate of Fire mods will be the new "essential" mod for DPS, alongside with elementals with 90% bonuses. So what? Because increasing rate of fire expends ammunition faster, which if we are to be perfectly honest, with the ammunition drop rates for Rifles and Pistols, is almost never an issue save for a few rare cases, it will be just fine for this to become the new DPS mod.

 

The forum's representation of the vocal minority complains about no diversity, and you want the last two or three mod slots to build your gear, correct? What if Rifles had 10 mod slots and Pistols 11, and you would have your eight slots to put in whatever you want, and the "essentials" can stay. This would give the minority an alternative which is essentially equivalent to their request right now, but what would they do? They would complain that they are "essential" and want the extra mod slots to do what they want with them. The only thing the minority is actually asking for is not "variety", but complete removal of choice of whether or not Serration and Multishot are applied to a weapon. If they are linked to something like weapon levels, which is one of the common proposals, what if I want to play with a weak weapon in a low level area, but my weapon is already level 30? I can't reduce the damage it does. The other issue is that then instead of having an essential mod(s), the only "essential" will have to be that the weapon is max ranked, which is the same problem disguised in another form. Having a Serration now is like having a leveled up weapon, but in this form DE is allowing us to not have to "relevel" the weapon, and thus, unlike in many other MMOs, leveling equipment to maximum level can be done in a rather reasonable, even short time-frame.

 

Let me propose this in the simplest way possible. Suppose each weapon worked the same fashion as it does now leveling, with leveling giving more points to equip mods. 

 

Your rifle has six mod slots, and there are two stats, Weapon Damage and Weapon Multishot, the first of which has 10 ranks and the second of which has 5. Maxing out Weapon Damage would cost the same number of credits and fusion cores as it currently does a Serration, and maxing out Weapon Multishot would cost the same number of credits and fusion cores as it does a Split Chamber.

 

This would remove the issue of "essential" mods, by drilling in these two stats and ground and infinite, unchangeable. The only difference is each weapon comes with their own "Serration" and "Split Chamber".

 

Would this be OK? This addresses the issue of them being "essential" because they are now innate with every weapon and cannot be swapped out even if we so desired to sacrifice damage output or "viability", wouldn't it? What if they were drilled in, and you got 8 mod slots a weapon? Wouldn't it give you the exact same versatility as your stated desires? It would. There's no more "illusion of choice" now is there? There wouldn't be, because you don't get a choice. Now that they are cemented in, and you have the eight slots to build for diversity as much as you want, which is equivalent to the end result of removing Serration/Hornet Strike and Multishot mods. Would this solution satisfy the minority who complains about the current system, even though it addresses the root of the problem by removing it? No. Everyone wants weapon damage/multishot to be linked to some other method, it cannot take fusion cores and credits, it must be linked to something we have 100% chance to gather indefinitely (see the proposed damage is proportionate to weapon level posts). Serration/Hornet Strike aren't a sign of progression and can be bought with platinum? In my example, you wouldn't be able to buy them anymore, since they are locked to a weapon. Then they would be truly signs of progression.

 

 

All this seems to me are a bunch of players who do not want to use materials and credits to put ranks into their Serration and Hornet Strikes, and are cloaking this desire into an argument that takes "mod diversity" as an excuse to remove one of the biggest time consumers in this game, gathering materials to rank up Hornet Strike and Serration. 

DE could have easily used my hypothetical situation as their method of weapon progression, and it would have encouraged greater time-sinking by the playerbase every time they wanted to work with a new weapon. But they didn't. Instead, they made it so our hard work would not only benefit one weapon, but could be applied to any other weapon, with the only cost being a slight time investment in leveling.

 

If you have a complaint, say it bluntly. Don't try to hide it behind some false excuses, because it's frankly pushing the community into the wrong direction.

 

Edit:

 

 

 

 

Heavy Caliber already does that. If you use Heavy Caliber on Paris Prime, Dread, or Latron Prime, or on any ranged precision weapon for that matter, you are not taking full advantage of their true damage potential through headshots.

 

Please read what I stated earlier, since your whole claim to arms is "diversity". 

 

There's no need to fix something that is already generous in the short amount of time and resources that it requires to reach maximum potential. Anything shorter would be pointless, considering the point of any MMORPG is the grind and the bigger numbers that keep you playing.

[Alphafox]

 

 

 

Please read what I stated earlier, since your whole claim to arms is "diversity". 

 

There's no need to fix something that is already generous in the short amount of time and resources that it requires to reach maximum potential. Anything shorter would be pointless, considering the point of any MMORPG is the grind and the bigger numbers that keep you playing.

 

I don't know for you but the good and challenging content is what I think keep players.

[Arabaxus]

I don't know for you but the good and challenging content is what I think keep players.

 

Please tell me what is currently challenging.

 

Warframe has near no skill needed. Bosses are all easily readable and simply get more bullet spongy at higher levels. 

 

Content is great, but the more it caters to the veterans, the worse it gets for new players, which are as important, if not more important, than veterans.

 

Also please back up your argument for "Mod Diversity", considering it was your original claim.