Psa: Nerfs Aren't One-Click Solution To Power Creep

[Arabaxus]

Why would both sides come together when clearly the nerf-crazy side is winning? The devs clearly don't give a rat's @$$ about people who actually don't like it when all the weapons we've formad 3 times and catalyzed are reduced to useless, as every other update is something getting nerfed, and we haven't seen a buff since ash.

 

To be fair Snipers, Torid, and Flux/Spectra, alongside Attica and anything else I am forgetting have gotten significant buffs to relieve them from their current position of obscurity.

 

That doesn't make much sense, you can always make challange for yourself if you want to. Nobody is stopping you from going solo on a t4s equiped with only unmodded oberon, unmodded dragoon, unmodded lato, and umodded skana. Challange is readily available whenever you want it.

 

I'll play devil's advocate on myself here and say that intentional handicaps are not what we should be using for a challenge, an important philosophy that is the main reason why Nightmare Mode remains one of the worst mechanics in Warframe.

 

However, that is also to say that Nightmare Mode remains a choice and is not necessary to progress at all. Any form of challenge, beyond the basics required for game progression, intentional handicaps or not, should remain a choice and should not be imposed on everyone and anyone indiscriminately, whether they welcome it or not.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Nerfs are not a one-step fix to power creep, but they are a great first step.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Nerfs are not a one-step fix to power creep, but they are a great first step.

Not always.

[Babellon]

Well first we need to isolate some of the issues. 

Weapons balance

frames balance

Map balance

 

Weapons- Every weapon should be viable, in any map or scenario. How ever, it should not be surprising that a lvl 30 formad weapon is going to out perform an unforma'd weapon. 

Frames- same situation as weapons.

Maps- now , here is where I think that some of the attention needs  to be applied. I think every weapon, and frame, (up until it is leveled to 30) should not negate the planet of its equivelant  level. 

 

I've posted this before, I'll post it again here for the purpose of this conversation

 

Normal mode- lvl 1-30, maps and mobs/bosses are designed for new players. scaled based on whether solo or coop, much like it is now. Standard drops/loot rewards.

 

Hard mode- lvl 30-60, unlocked after completed all maps objectives on normal mode. Cannot be accessed by new players or players who have not unlocked normal mode, cannot be taxi'd to. Mercuy starts at lvl 30. This play through mode has increased mobs density, mobs/bosses have higher shields, more health, higher damage output. increased drops rewards/loot. 25% increase to damage, shields,health on bosses/mobs,mob count, loot drops/rewards. 

 

Heroic mode lvl 60-90, unlocked after completing all maps objectives in hard mode. Cannot be accessed by new players or players who have not completed the other two modes. Mercury starts at lvl 60, cannot be taxi'd to. increase of all aspects like hard mode but by 50%. 

 

Now, what this does: gives that person or group with those maxxed formad weapons and frames somewhere to play, that gives them challenge, and rewards for the effort without causing overlap for new players, or player groups/soloists who want to stay in the easier normal maps. We all have to play the maps, we alll run the same maps, no matter what level we are. If we put in this type of change, it would give us all an aspect of game play we can choose from to suit our style and desire. 

 

A change to grouping dynamics is also needed. changing the grouping in public matches to sort by conclave/gear levels, would put players in groups with others on par with their own level range. Would prevent some of the over powered camping that happens as well. Part of the reason I for example don't go into groups, is that I don't want someone else with maxxed build to go in and take all the fun from me doing the killing. I think we all can agree that is dissapointing. 

 

What Im getting at here is, the Soma for example isn't over powered, its applied in the wrong way, and those people with massive powerful forma'd gear are forced into groups with those who are lower tiered than they are. We''re all forced to play maps that never really adjust to the level we're at when we enter that map, so we end up breezing through the content at some point as well, Everything become stale. we can fix that. 

 

If we nerf every weapon and frame, then nerf every mob and boss, we end up with the exact same problem but with lower numbers. We can't do both. by trying to argue both we diminish the game on all levels. it becomes nothing but a simple point click boring walk through empty lackluster maps with no real value.

Edited August 14, 2014 by -Malachi-

[insaninater]

Well first we need to isolate some of the issues. 

Weapons balance

frames balance

Map balance

 

Weapons- Every weapon should be viable, in any map or scenario. How ever, it should not be surprising that a lvl 30 formad weapon is going to out perform an unforma'd weapon. 

Frames- same situation as weapons.

Maps- now , here is where I think that some of the attention needs  to be applied. I think every weapon, and frame, (up until it is leveled to 30) should not negate the planet of its equivelant  level. 

 

I've posted this before, I'll post it again here for the purpose of this conversation

 

Normal mode- lvl 1-30, maps and mobs/bosses are designed for new players. scaled based on whether solo or coop, much like it is now. Standard drops/loot rewards.

 

Hard mode- lvl 30-60, unlocked after completed all maps objectives on normal mode. Cannot be accessed by new players or players who have not unlocked normal mode, cannot be taxi'd to. Mercuy starts at lvl 30. This play through mode has increased mobs density, mobs/bosses have higher shields, more health, higher damage output. increased drops rewards/loot. 25% increase to damage, shields,health on bosses/mobs,mob count, loot drops/rewards. 

 

Heroic mode lvl 60-90, unlocked after completing all maps objectives in hard mode. Cannot be accessed by new players or players who have not completed the other two modes. Mercury starts at lvl 60, cannot be taxi'd to. increase of all aspects like hard mode but by 50%. 

 

Now, what this does: gives that person or group with those maxxed formad weapons and frames somewhere to play, that gives them challenge, and rewards for the effort without causing overlap for new players, or player groups/soloists who want to stay in the easier normal maps. We all have to play the maps, we alll run the same maps, no matter what level we are. If we put in this type of change, it would give us all an aspect of game play we can choose from to suit our style and desire. 

 

A change to grouping dynamics is also needed. changing the grouping in public matches to sort by conclave/gear levels, would put players in groups with others on par with their own level range. Would prevent some of the over powered camping that happens as well. Part of the reason I for example don't go into groups, is that I don't want someone else with maxxed build to go in and take all the fun from me doing the killing. I think we all can agree that is dissapointing. 

 

What Im getting at here is, the Soma for example isn't over powered, its applied in the wrong way, and those people with massive powerful forma'd gear are forced into groups with those who are lower tiered than they are. We''re all forced to play maps that never really adjust to the level we're at when we enter that map, so we end up breezing through the content at some point as well, Everything become stale. we can fix that. 

 

>Every weapon should be viable, in any map or scenario.

 

Eh, idk.

 

If everything is equally viable in every scenerio, what's the point of more than one weapon/frame?

 

I think some weapons should work well in some scenario, and other weapons in different scenerios. Variety, you know?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Not always.

I am not talking about always. I am talking about Warframe.

[Babellon]

>Every weapon should be viable, in any map or scenario.

 

Eh, idk.

 

If everything is equally viable in every scenerio, what's the point of more than one weapon/frame?

 

I think some weapons should work well in some scenario, and other weapons in different scenerios. Variety, you know?

sure, and that is certainly one area we should look at. The point of the equality between weapons and frames being that it no longer becomes about which one is stronger, but which is fun to the individual player using it. There is a point where we've leveled everything, after that its just having fun with what you have and want to use. and in that case, you should be able to use any weapon, or frame equally effectively. MOds I think are where the situational aspect comes in, and certanly the mod system could use some looking at.

[Etsoree]

 

People say Mirage is OP, but all she does is add a damage multiplier just like Excalibur, Loki, and Ash. 

 

With some quick math I calculated that with an Ogris she can do an extra 44,752 damage per shot. That's not OP? No melee weapon gets anywhere near that high. Excal has no damage buff. Ash's Bladestorm doesn't get anywhere near that high, and for the cost of HoM if you have a max power build then that's certainely OP as hell compared to Bladestorm either way, and it lasts for a lot, LOT longer than Bladestorm and can easily be maintained.

 

That is NOT including Eclipse damage whatsoever which can also be just as easily maintained.

 

Let's do more math though.

 

Base Ogris damage roughly of 24k with a build I threw together with a builder. Eclipse damage bonus can go to 458% more of that, so, 4.5x more, I would assume. 24K * 4.5 = 108k. That, or, a 95% damage reduction.

 

She can tank or 1-shot everything. The energy cost can easily be compensated with energy pads.

 

This is also if my math is all correct, which I'm hoping it is. Math isn't my greatest subject.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

 Excal has no damage buff. 

You're joking right?

[Etsoree]

You're joking right?

 

Enlighten me.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Enlighten me.

You do know Radial Blind adds a 400% Melee boost just like Loki and Ash right?

[Etsoree]

You do know Radial Blind adds a 400% Melee boost just like Loki and Ash right?

 

I did state that no melee weapon has any damage anywhere near that level. Either way, forgetting one thing doesn't matter.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

I did state that no melee weapon has any damage anywhere near that level. Either way, forgetting one thing doesn't matter.

You're comparing Apples to Oranges now. Of course a Primary will do more damage than a Melee. If we actually compare the same Weapon Type, their damage is about same.

[Etsoree]

You're comparing Apples to Oranges now. Of course a Primary will do more damage than a Melee. If we actually compare the same Weapon Type, their damage is about same.

 

Prove to me that you can get a melee doing 100k per hit, then. Do the math, show me the build, use a calculator.

[Arabaxus]

With some quick math I calculated that with an Ogris she can do an extra 44,752 damage per shot. That's not OP? No melee weapon gets anywhere near that high. Excal has no damage buff. Ash's Bladestorm doesn't get anywhere near that high, and for the cost of HoM if you have a max power build then that's certainely OP as hell compared to Bladestorm either way, and it lasts for a lot, LOT longer than Bladestorm and can easily be maintained.

 

That is NOT including Eclipse damage whatsoever which can also be just as easily maintained.

 

Let's do more math though.

 

Base Ogris damage roughly of 24k with a build I threw together with a builder. Eclipse damage bonus can go to 458% more of that, so, 4.5x more, I would assume. 24K * 4.5 = 108k. That, or, a 95% damage reduction.

 

She can tank or 1-shot everything. The energy cost can easily be compensated with energy pads.

 

This is also if my math is all correct, which I'm hoping it is. Math isn't my greatest subject.

 

458% damage increase takes into account that one is using 2 mod slots solely for the sake of increasing Eclispe's effectiveness. This also assumes said user has both mods, both ranked up to maximum. 458% damage increase also takes into account Mirage is standing in a zone where there is enough light to activate the full damage boost of Eclipse. 108k and the claim that she can one-shot everything overlooks the fact that Armor and Ferrite damage reduction for blast exists.

 

Meanwhile, Ogris is not a melee weapon. It is a rocket launcher that takes well over a second to charge and chuck out a rocket if built solely for damage to capitalize on said 44,752 damage.

 

Ogris also has travel time, AoE, and is a projectile.

 

Melee weapons do not have this kind of raw damage in one shot.

 

However, melee weapons do not need to be reloaded or charged.

 

Melee weapons have a increasing damage with consecutive hits.

 

Melee weapons can have their damage further augmented through energy by not only Eclipse but also through channeling.

 

Melee weapons also have multiple combos if used with a stance mod.

 

Melee weapons have infinite ammunition, can perform finisher attacks, and do not have the drawbacks of having the majority of its damage be blast and therefore suffer performance-wise against Heavy Gunners.

 

TL;DR? Stop comparing apples to oranges.

 

 

I did state that no melee weapon has any damage anywhere near that level. Either way, forgetting one thing doesn't matter.

 

I'm sorry, this statement alone shows sloppy consideration when formulating an argument. Forgetting one fact may not matter, dependent on the circumstance, but claiming the act of forgetting something, or in this case, stating inaccurate, invalid evidence does not help your credibility.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Arabaxus

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Prove to me that you can get a melee doing 100k per hit, then. Do the math, show me the build, use a calculator.

So you completely ignored what i was talking about, huh? Same Weapon Type AKA Melee to Melee. Not Rocket Launcher to Kitana.

[fatpig84]

You want to stop power creep ?

Nerf corrosive projection.

 

*flame suit on*

[Renegade343]

You want to stop power creep ?

Nerf corrosive projection.

 

*flame suit on*

I would be happy with diminishing returns for stacked auras. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

You want to stop power creep ?

Nerf corrosive projection.

 

*flame suit on*

You need to stop power creep on enemies too so you wouldn't need corrosive projection.

[Babellon]

would it not make more since to design a better mode system that gives a reason for those weapons being so strong? that soma, at level 1, isn't that powerful. that bolter, its ok, but at level 1 its no different than any other weapon at lvl 1. this whole argument that weapons have to be made weaker because at lvl 30 it kills everything is a little old to be honest. When the players who like to take these stances all get together and beg DE to make the mobs weaker because its just to much, DE weakens them, then the same group comes back and says the weapons are to strong. its a never ending cycle. 

 

How bout instead of weakening the mobs, then weakening the weapons, we develop a place for the weapons and frames to be useful in a fun way, rather than having maxxed weapons and frames farming normal range maps. And, how bout we get maps that accommodate those maxxed forma'd weapons rather than continually weakening the mobs further?

[fatpig84]

 And, how bout we get maps that accommodate those maxxed forma'd weapons rather than continually weakening the mobs further?

 

Yeah oh yeah we did.

 

Then people whined that a level 80 Lephantis with level 60 infested mobs swarming them was too hard.

Apparently they did not know you can jump or roll from his scythe or gas bombs that can probably 1 hit to 2 hit you.

They did not know that while Lephantis was a baller, CC powers still worked perfectly ok against level 60 chargers.

 

Then DE nerfed him the next day.

Now I don't even bother attempt to dodge anymore and jokingly called him Nerfphantis.

 

 

Oh the current Zanuka was actually NERFED a few days after U14 released. 

And people are still complaining "it's too hard omg !"

Edited August 14, 2014 by fatpig84

[insaninater]

would it not make more since to design a better mode system that gives a reason for those weapons being so strong? that soma, at level 1, isn't that powerful. that bolter, its ok, but at level 1 its no different than any other weapon at lvl 1. this whole argument that weapons have to be made weaker because at lvl 30 it kills everything is a little old to be honest. When the players who like to take these stances all get together and beg DE to make the mobs weaker because its just to much, DE weakens them, then the same group comes back and says the weapons are to strong. its a never ending cycle. 

 

How bout instead of weakening the mobs, then weakening the weapons, we develop a place for the weapons and frames to be useful in a fun way, rather than having maxxed weapons and frames farming normal range maps. And, how bout we get maps that accommodate those maxxed forma'd weapons rather than continually weakening the mobs further?

 

Finally, someone who gets it.

[Babellon]

Yeah oh yeah we did.

 

Then people whined that a level 80 Lephantis with level 60 infested mobs swarming them was too hard.

Apparently they did not know you can jump or roll from his scythe or gas bombs that can probably 1 hit to 2 hit you.

They did not know that while Lephantis was a baller, CC powers still worked perfectly ok against level 60 chargers.

 

Then DE nerfed him the next day.

Now I don't even bother attempt to dodge anymore and jokingly called him Nerfphantis.

 

 

Oh the current Zanuka was actually NERFED a few days after U14 released. 

And people are still complaining "it's too hard omg !"

well I agree with you....completely. which is why we need a mode system to accommodate those high end weapons.l posted it in an earlier part of this thread so I won't repeat it but thats exactly to me the problem. what you just stated here, to often, People are screaming that the mobs are to hard, then once the mobs are nerfed, they complain that the weapons are to strong, then once the weapons are weakened, they complain about the mobs again. a mode system -normal/hard/heroic in which the mobs are legitimately harder on the higher modes, would give people with the high leveled weapons and frames somewhere to go and give those who like the simple runs a place to play as well. 

 

Then, we could start having honest work towards a balanced system of weapons and frames.

Edited August 14, 2014 by -Malachi-

[Mr_Goa]

I put nearly a hundred or so hours into my angstrum, it is now out of ammo in 5 trigger pulls.

For now, I won't be around much, because this was what I liked.

Imagine walking into a game and only being able to pull the trigger 5 times, and then you need to do something else.

 

Sad panda.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I put nearly a hundred or so hours into my angstrum, it is now out of ammo in 5 trigger pulls.

For now, I won't be around much, because this was what I liked.

Imagine walking into a game and only being able to pull the trigger 5 times, and then you need to do something else.

 

Sad panda.

It is a launcher and a secondary at that.  It is fine.