Difficulty

[Thaumatos]

Enemies scale to your conclave rating or the team's also try moving out of the cloud

Which is flawed.

 

Your conclave rating is only based on the number and rarity of the mods you have equipped, not on how coherent/useful your build is or how well you play the game.

 

Where's the player-based rating system they promised?  I want to be able to +1 people who play well.

[Davoodoo]

Which is flawed.

 

Your conclave rating is only based on the number and rarity of the mods you have equipped, not on how coherent/useful your build is or how well you play the game.

It can also be easily exploited. 

-unequip everything from frame

-pick only primary weapon

-unequip sentinel.

You wont have even 800 conclave but you will have weapon capable of doing over 20k dps.

[Thaumatos]

It can also be easily exploited. 

-unequip everything from frame

-pick only primary weapon

-unequip sentinel.

You wont have even 800 conclave but you will have weapon capable of doing over 20k dps.

Yeah...

 

That's because CR was made back when you couldn't un-equip weapons.  Somebody didn't follow through after melee 2.0.

 

Regardless, CR is a good concept poorly executed.  You need a rating system other than rank because rank provides nothing but capacity.

[Davoodoo]

Yeah...

 

That's because CR was made back when you couldn't un-equip weapons.  Somebody didn't follow through after melee 2.0.

 

Regardless, CR is a good concept poorly executed.  You need a rating system other than rank because rank provides nothing but capacity.

Even then you could unequip all mods and exploit it same way.

 

Problem again is being tied to progression which favors weapons over everything else while being based completely on drops.

If you wanted to make conclave rating work properly then you need to take into consideration mod stacking, realistically fully modded weapon should have around 5k conclave alone, while maxed frame 500 at best.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Thaumatos]

Even then you could unequip all mods and exploit it same way.

 

Problem again is being tied to progression which favors weapons over everything else while being based completely on drops.

If you wanted to make conclave rating work properly then you need to take into consideration mod stacking, realistically fully modded weapon should have around 5k conclave alone, while maxed frame 500 at best.

 

They shouldn't base anything on the mods themselves, they should base it on the change in the weapon's base stats.  If you somehow made a 2 DPS weapon go to a 20k DPS weapon, that should be a higher rating than making a 19k into a 20k.

 

Then just take the highest rating as your CR instead of adding them all together.  No more removing mods or items to deflate your score.

[DSpite]

Disclaimer:  I expect a lot of hate from this post.

 

*snip*

 

Damn right you will get some hate. Here it comes.

 

Hmmm, I kind of agree on the "behind walls". Pretty sure fixing that would be a massive code pain though. So I think you are stuck with that for a while.

 

The flying buggers have been nerfed enough. I've been in tons of clouds now and we have so many ninja-sprint moves that getting away is not that bad.

 

Ok, I can at least hate you on the MR bit. MR means nothing. It means you have too much time on your hands and need to go outside. I have lost track of stuff I ranked to 30 just because I forgot I was carrying it while being invited on Void missions. This is like saying you can cook by putting a frozen pizza in the microwave.

 

Alad V? Well, ALL bosses should not be farmed just for the hell of it. If they are considered a push-over, they are NOT bosses. Here, either we get a better "farming" mechanic for resources, I mean, look at FIrefall, a drill drops from the sky, you defend it, and the longer it goes for, the longer it has a chance to get rare resources. Tell DE to stop the presses, I have just plagiarized a new game mode! So, yea, sorry, I'm glad the bosses kick my &#!, it felt wrong before.

 

Your progress idea is broken. If Terrorists get bigger weapons, the Army gets upgraded armor, and better tech. If the Terrorists get nukes, they get nuked. Everything escalates even in RL life. Tanks get more tech each year because the anti-tank weapons get better. I can't justify "game logic" here properly, I'm just pointing out that if you played Skyrim and the enemy did not scale, you would one-hit dragons at level 30. SOME scaling is ALWAYS required. Perhaps you are right on "over scaling" in some places, but I will leave that to others. I'm not having issue, you just need to change your toolkit for specific encounters, as it should be.

 

So my question is:  How do we change Warframe to allow you pros to crank things up to "Pro" level, and not alienate lower tier players with poorer reflexes, weaker perception abilities, inferior sense of direction, and mediocre fine motor control?  (In other words, people like me).

 

If it was up to me (it's not) you allow players with less l33tn355 to run missions with a modified difficulty, but lower chances to get the drops, so they can't farm as efficiently. Problem is hiding this "difficulty" without adding a button or slider and breaking immersion. Right now all rewards are the same, but the mobs scale based on us, and that is what you came across. You could now "farm" Alad V, but might only get a drop 1/3 rather then 1/1. Since you can still do very fast runs, it might balance out. It's not a very good idea, I'm just implying a concept of give-take.

 

I agree with having "fun missions" and "challenge missions" and keeping them FAR FAR apart (Special Events are special). I just don't have very good ideas myself on how to do that. When you have a game people can "farm", they will always try and find a "snooze" way of doing it, and most games suffer from it.

 

Ok, well, that was not as much hate as I pump into my other posts. It's 4am here, it's probably cause I'm half asleep and there's a cat on my lap. I'll hate you more later. Raincheck perhaps?

[Wyzilla]

It's an easy game becoming harder, FINALLY.

^

 

QFT. If anything, Warframe needs more enemies that are difficulty multipliers. The game is far too easy right now, and either tenno need to be nerfed, or enemies need to be buffed.

[EvilKam]

Your progress idea is broken. {snip} Everything escalates even in RL life. Tanks get more tech each year because the anti-tank weapons get better. I can't justify "game logic" here properly, I'm just pointing out that if you played Skyrim and the enemy did not scale, you would one-hit dragons at level 30. SOME scaling is ALWAYS required. Perhaps you are right on "over scaling" in some places, but I will leave that to others. I'm not having issue, you just need to change your toolkit for specific encounters, as it should be.

 

The US Army has been using the M1 Abrams since 1980.  The technology updates have been incremental and minimal.  Technology does NOT infinitely march forwards with "better" stuff.  The same DULLRAM armor plating used in Desert Storm 1 is still in use today.  The reason is that we've reached the limits of physics.  You just can't beat what we have without overkill, and armoring to overcome that overkill means your tank doesn't drive anymore.  

 

The US Army has been using the M16 since 1962.  The only upgrades have been changing the firing assembly to eliminate full auto and cosmetic handguards to change it to the A2 variant, and now by chopping down the barrel and the stock, it's shortened to the M4 carbine.  The weapons use the same bullets, the same bolt carrier assembly, and an almost identical upper/lower receivers.

 

Guess what?  Scaling stops at some point.  We haven't changed away from the M16 because we're at the limits of physics.  There's no more "inefficiency" left to shave away and perfect.  You literally can't make bullets be better, we've had them essentially perfected for a century.  Any improvements at this point will be tiny, no future weapon will change an army into a Super Force.  

 

At this point, everything is a tradeoff.  More power is great, except it means increased recoil.  Faster fire rates mean Melted Barrels.  Stronger Barrels mean heavier guns and reduced human endurance.  Heavier bullets mean tired squads, lighter bullets means less lethality.  Progress in REAL LIFE IS BROKEN.

 

I played Oblivion with mods that eliminated the scaling entirely.  I play Skyrim with similar mods so that I never get overpowered in a fight unless I'm blatantly stupid, or go somewhere I'm not supposed to.  Later, I return when levelled up, and the challenges no longer exceed my abilities.

 

Scaling is fine.  The point is, at some point you have to beat the scale.  That's how Games work.  Grind your way to level 99 in a Final Fantasy game.  You'll obliterate all the enemies, unless the game is designed to offer some sort of Uber challenge type zone with elite player challenges.

 

Your response is well written and well worded.  I'm glad that you now enjoy being able to fight Alad V, who is now harder to kill than Sargus Ruk.  I used to despise trying to kill Sargus Ruk.  I used to despise killing Alad V.  Then I could tolerate both Alad and Sargas.  Now, I detest trying to kill Alad V again.  In this case, what was the point of me playing the game?  I'm back at square one.

 

I don't want Warframe to become the game for "Elite" players.  That's why we have Quakecon (is that still a thing?)  I'm not a Quake-Con player.  I'm just "mediocre Cameron".  ;)

[Marthrym]

I wouldn't qualify Warframe as "hard", or "challenging". "Unfair" and "stupid" maybe. Unfair because the difficulty doesn't come from enemies that require you to THINK, they require you to bring the most "OP" gear with you all the time. Which can be fun actually. I like blasting my way through waves of enemies. Just not all the time. These enemies also use mechanics that punish the players instead of providing "challenge", and most importantly : FUN. Everything they're not.

 

Then comes to mind the word "stupid". Why? Simple : scaling is used as a crutch. The "endgame" is just a "One-shot Fest", nothing more. Endless missions have contributed immensely to the current weapon imbalance. The current scaling is both great and stupid. At first, it's almost horizontal, because new players need to learn. Well actually they need better gear, not much to "learn". But it's rather fair to new players. Well until Earth and the Bleed proc smack them in the face. Hard.

Then we hit the "sweet spot". Both players and enemies are not completely imbalanced yet, mods are not maxed, and "smart" players start to understand the virtue of patience and don't rush the market to buy the latest shiny new toy. That's where the game is really awesome and FUN.

Then... Then comes the dreaded "Endgame". The bane of Warframe's existence. Players have gorged themselves with "phat lootz" and have completely overpowered loadouts/mods, and the enemy scaling goes almost vertical to compensate. And then of course skyrockets into "moronic" territory, leading to the forementioned "One-shot Fest" and weapon imbalance.

 

"Elite/elitists" players are just kidding themselves. There is no "elite". Not in the "skill" department anyway...

 

P.S : This is just MY opinion, so of course it's partial. Don't waste your time methodically dismantling this post to show how wrong and dumb I am. I already know that.^^

And I still love this game. It's awesome. And the Devs. They're awesome too. And FUN. I give them a hard time because I want them to make awesome things. Because I know they can. They have before. We're still here playing this game after all.^^

[Viverim]

When I first started playing I found the game fun.  Now, more and more, the sense of fun is leeched away.  Bleed procs, toxic procs, toxic damage, power drain, knock down....  I don't enjoy those mechanics.  For the longest time (several months) my PS3 was broken, and thus I played Warframe more than my other games.  Now that my PS3 is fixed, I find I only play Warframe for one or two missions. 

 

In about half a month Destiy and the Sims4 come out.  A month after that, Skylanders and Borderlands.  Once that happens, I am pretty sure I will mostly be logging in just to collect my daily reward, especially as my Kubrow is already on ice.  In their rush to make things "harder", the design team has chosen to emphasize game quirks which are, in my estimation, not fun and highly punishing.  Some people applaud this decision.  I am not one of them, and I find it rather sad that I no longer look forward to playing Warframe as much as I once did.

[EvilKam]

Resurrecting now with the new "tactical alert" that's up.

 

So, we can't bring our "OP Gear" to this mission.  Boltor Prime?  Nope, not going to work.  I can't bring my Soma either, unless I remove so many mods that the gun becomes too underpowered for the level 25 enemies.

 

My best weapon that I can use on this alert?  Boar Prime.  Granted, it's no slouch, but I'm not blindly carving through enemies, and in fact, I can not solo it.

 

I'm bringing completely unmodded Akzani pistols, a completely unmodded Machete, the Boar Prime, and my beloved Excalibur.  I can't bring any sentinel at all, which is a shame because I finally got the pieces for Wyrm prime, and would like to level it.

 

With the affinity rewards for this mission, leaving out crappy extra gear is unconscionably poor thinking, to do so is to waste a ton of affinity.  The totals I've clocked for the event missions are really nice, and have finally allowed me to max out this mangy pet, so I won't need any more stabilizers for the thing.  Time to let the doggie die.

 

I want the affinity, AND the credit booster, and I'm bringing a bunch of crap gear.  If not for teammates, I wouldn't stand a chance.

 

Oh, and every third mission I lose connection to host because my internet sucks, so I've now managed to complete it, but it was a longer drag than it needed to be.

 

All of this proves my point:  Warframe is NOT EASY.  Warframe BECOMES EASY, after you get great mods on your good weapons.  Bring a full loadout to the alert mission.  I bet that you will be slaughtered, because the only way to succeed is to carefully min/max your conclave rating to allow you to bring enough power to the mission without going over the arbitrary number.

[fartloud]

one point that you got 100% right is that some weapons are just not viable. some weapons are as hard to get as some others, yet some weapons are just miles away in terms of usefulness. ofcourse more balance is coming every patch, but i think players would appreciate if weapons were released after more thought.

[Metalarcher]

The only real meaningful discussion in OP's argument is that some enemies do things that you could not have predicted.  The solution we have which prevents Warframe from being difficult in many player's eyes is that we have abilities that kill everything within a 20m radius around us, which many enemies cannot do anything about, as they have to be within 20m to kill you.  The problem and the solution are both fairly unsatisfying.

 

Should my enemy have to see me to attack me?  Absolutely.  Should I have to see my enemy to attack it?  Of course.  When enemies die before you knew they were there, killing them becomes meaningless.  They're ants, and you're the anteater.  You're winning because you're designed to win.

 

So difficulty really isn't the problem.  On the contrary, difficulty is often the solution for burnout and grind.  Meaningful challenges that force the player to plan and execute that plan are important to make a game last in the mind of that player.  Some things in Warframe are not meaningfully challenging, and those things should be removed or reworked to contribute to a better experience.

 

When you ask yourself "what just killed me?" and you can't find an answer, there are two possibilities.  Either you're just incapable of understanding that there is a means to get better at the game, and it was your fault you died, or you truly could have done nothing humanly possible to prevent your death.  Sniffing out causes of the latter possibility will only help Warframe.

[EvilKam]

What if I'm incapable at getting better?  That's what "Gear" is for.  To compensate for your personal weaknesses.

Edited August 23, 2014 by EvilKam

[Davoodoo]

What if I'm incapable at getting better?  That's what "Gear" is for.  To compensate for your personal weaknesses.

Finally you should hit a wall where gear alone wont be enough to progress further and if youre incapable of getting better despite playing for that amount of time then you arent fit for being a gamer and you can stay forever at lowest difficulty setting or in our case mercury.

Simple as that.

[Tr1ples1xer]

Challenge or harder =/= fun for me, big difference, don't let this game get tedious, please let me fly all over the place not look for cover, game is dying imo.