A Few Things To Consider Regarding Nerfing.

[xethier]

My concern are on point 3 and 4 from OP's post. I can't know if something is good - too good - OP - Or even broken and will be nerfed at some point in the future. I can't know what the majority of the community will say on a frame/weapon, and then rate it broken and need to be fixed (nerfed). Before I didn't think about nerf before I choose to upgrade anything, it was "I like it" reason was enough. But now I have to guess if this thing is going to be nerf or not. This for me is a valid concern.

 

unfortunately that's the price you pay for playing a game like this.

the easiest cop-out answer is -- it's beta -- deal.

but that's disingenuous. this game has a payment system, so by my book (the one that apparently stopped being used by gaming companies around 2005) it's no longer beta.

 

but it *is* a persistent world and everything in it *may* be modified at any point.

my suggestion is to not spend real cash and work for all the items you acquire.

personally i spent the $20 on my founder pack and haven't spent a single-red-cent since. but i do have the spare time to acquire the items by playing.

[Orbister]

Again, rank 12, every prime weapon and frame owned, without spending a cent on the game.

 

The noob card you're trying to play really doesn't apply here.

Congratulations, i am rank 12 aswell, although mastery rank doesn't guarantee knowledge of how game mechanics actually work. i am not trying to pull any card on you. i guess i just enjoy difficulty and challenge... i just like limitations, that's what makes success more satisfactory imo.

[vaugahn]

unfortunately that's the price you pay for playing a game like this.

the easiest cop-out answer is -- it's beta -- deal.

but that's disingenuous. this game has a payment system, so by my book (the one that apparently stopped being used by gaming companies around 2005) it's no longer beta.

 

Beta's more used to denote the game's development status than whether it's being monetized or not. Warframe is unfinished so it's still beta. This isn't the thread for that discussion though.

[CptFaustas]

Again, rank 12, every prime weapon and frame owned, without spending a cent on the game.

 

The noob card you're trying to play really doesn't apply here.

So how are you rank 12 then?

 

Also good for you that you play for a long time. Bad for you that you don't see reason.

Edited August 22, 2014 by CptFaustas

[Orbister]

So how are you rank 12 then?

 

yea he should be like 17 right?

Edited August 22, 2014 by Orbister

[xethier]

What buffs?

 

The buffs are a joke compared to the nerfs right now. If the sniper nerf was anywhere near the scale of the launcher nerf, i wouldn't have a problem. That could actually be seen as balancing the game, but right now, the scale of buffs compared to the scale of nerfs is completely negligible.

 

i'd count the addition of mirage as a buff, in and of itself.

i think you're looking at relative gear from a perspective that is too narrow.

they buffed the flux rifle. (which was sorely needed)

they buffed the sniper rifles. (also sorely needed)

 

you're upset about what exactly? you never did define that in  your original posting.

i'll assume that it's the ammo reduction as that's the most blatant nerf that's happened recently...

and i'll say it again (as i did in my first response) build an ammo pad.

it costs, what, 900 credits per deployment? is that gonna break you?

now you have to stick close to your pad if you're going to go all area-denial ogris/penta crazies. 

tactics sir. ammo is about the last thing i'm worried about in this game.

[Agullimux]

I think this nerf was made people to get attica. next nerf attica -> buff snipers?

[xethier]

Beta's more used to denote the game's development status than whether it's being monetized or not. Warframe is unfinished so it's still beta. This isn't the thread for that discussion though.

 

yeah, that's the official line from multiple gaming companies and it's become the new standard.

it's still bogus to my way of thinking. if you start monetizing your game, then you should have enough faith in your product that you can remove the beta tag. but us old farts get stuck in our ways when it comes to things like that and i'm sure i'm in the minority.

you're also correct in that this isn't the correct venue for that discussion so i'll cease my blather about it here.

[insaninater]

I'm sorry, but you clearly do not get it.

 

Things don't get nerfed because they're the most powerful in the game. Every game will have top-tier items, that's natural. Things get nerfed because they allow players something they should not have within the structure of the game, or give a player an unfair advantage. And before you say something like "oh it's PvE there are no unfair advantages", stop and think for a second. The unfair advantage is relative to the other weapons available, and the capabilities of other players.

 

Now, it's possible you could make a good case for less nerfing. That's not out of the question, and I'm sure there are reasonable and well thought out points there. However you're so hilariously misinformed as to why balance changes take place that the chances of that happening here are close to zero.

 

Oh, and what buffs? How about the absolutely massive ones to the Flux Rifle, Spectra, and Acrid? Or the huge buff many weapons got when damage 2.0 came out? You're cherry-picking instances that support your argument and ignoring everything else.

 

I'm trying to make a case for less nerfing. I could accept maybe a few specific weapons being nerfed every month or so, but it's getting absurd, and while i can completely agree that explosive weapons needed a balancing, the results were quite extreme. As for melee 2.0, i can't speak from personal experience, as this was before my time as a player, but as i've heard, a lot of things got seriously nerfed when that happened too. Who's cherry-picking now?

[Dalawantahr]

And I also want to add, really, nobody like wasting be it money, resource or time. So again, please DE, do whatever you can to make things right the first time.

[insaninater]

unfortunately that's the price you pay for playing a game like this.

the easiest cop-out answer is -- it's beta -- deal.

but that's disingenuous. this game has a payment system, so by my book (the one that apparently stopped being used by gaming companies around 2005) it's no longer beta.

 

but it *is* a persistent world and everything in it *may* be modified at any point.

my suggestion is to not spend real cash and work for all the items you acquire.

personally i spent the $20 on my founder pack and haven't spent a single-red-cent since. but i do have the spare time to acquire the items by playing.

 

 

And you don't see how people not spending money on the game will negatively affect the game?

[xethier]

I'm trying to make a case for less nerfing. I could accept maybe a few specific weapons being nerfed every month or so, but it's getting absurd, and while i can completely agree that explosive weapons needed a balancing, the results were quite extreme. As for melee 2.0, i can't speak from personal experience, as this was before my time as a player, but as i've heard, a lot of things got seriously nerfed when that happened too. Who's cherry-picking now?

 

results were quite extreme... how?

they do the exact same damage they did before.

you just can't spam the crap out of them without moving. (unless you deploy some ammo pads that are absurdly inexpensive once you get past the initial investment costs)

 

these changes seem more than fair to me.

[KiteoHatto]

I just want weapon MR increased, if you are high MR then you deserve crazy dps because you've been through this content enough times already, so you get boosted damage to breeze through it. Im looking at you soma and boltor p

[xethier]

And you don't see how people not spending money on the game will negatively affect the game?

 

first you're railing off at DE for "breaking" your game, now you're defending the very system you're upset about.

 

are you trolling or just confused about your position on these issues?

 

if you'll read the very posting you just quoted, you'll note that i made it clear that i have the time to spend to acquire items without spending cash. MANY players don't have that luxury. 

[insaninater]

results were quite extreme... how?

they do the exact same damage they did before.

you just can't spam the crap out of them without moving. (unless you deploy some ammo pads that are absurdly inexpensive once you get past the initial investment costs)

 

these changes seem more than fair to me.

 

Angstrum literally only gets less than 10 full shots now. Ogris and penta i don't have as much a problem with.

 

 

first you're railing off at DE for "breaking" your game, now you're defending the very system you're upset about.

 

are you trolling or just confused about your position on these issues?

 

if you'll read the very posting you just quoted, you'll note that i made it clear that i have the time to spend to acquire items without spending cash. MANY players don't have that luxury. 

 

I very much apreciate that luxury too, but we won't get to keep that luxury if nobody spends money on the game.

 

I think you're the one confused. I'm saying buffs and nerfs should happen on a minimalist scale, and that without a sense of stability, nobody is going to spend actual money on the game. You suggest not spending money on the game, but tell me, what happens when everyone takes that advice?

 

If less nerfs and buffs happened, we could all be a little more sure that, when buying something, what we see is what we get. More funding goes to the game, we all get to keep playing it.

Edited August 22, 2014 by insaninater

[vaugahn]

 

I'm trying to make a case for less nerfing. I could accept maybe a few specific weapons being nerfed every month or so, but it's getting absurd, and while i can completely agree that explosive weapons needed a balancing, the results were quite extreme. As for melee 2.0, i can't speak from personal experience, as this was before my time as a player, but as i've heard, a lot of things got seriously nerfed when that happened too. Who's cherry-picking now?

 

Oh good lord.

 

Damage 2.0 only adversely affected a few weapons. Most of those were because of charge attacks getting removed. What it did do was make a lot of weapons viable. A good half of the weapons I use now sucked pre-damage 2.0.

 

And honestly, it just feels like you're a little butthurt about the launcher changes. Not every balance update is going to have nerfs in it. We have a heavy weapons buff and a shotgun buff and probably another sniper buff on the table, and that's just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. There's also some more nerfs that need to be done. We get both. You talk about stability, but anyone who's read anything about this game before downloading it knows that it's in-development. In fact, that's one of the major draws of this game. It really seems like you may just be having a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to the negative parts of recent balance changes, which while severe were entirely called for. That's okay, but you should try and recognize the pure insanity of some of your arguments before you post them.

[insaninater]

 

 

 

 

Oh good lord.

 

Damage 2.0 only adversely affected a few weapons. Most of those were because of charge attacks getting removed. What it did do was make a lot of weapons viable. A good half of the weapons I use now sucked pre-damage 2.0.

 

And honestly, it just feels like you're a little butthurt about the launcher changes. Not every balance update is going to have nerfs in it. We have a heavy weapons buff and a shotgun buff and probably another sniper buff on the table, and that's just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. There's also some more nerfs that need to be done. We get both. You talk about stability, but anyone who's read anything about this game before downloading it knows that it's in-development. In fact, that's one of the major draws of this game. It really seems like you may just be having a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to the negative parts of recent balance changes, which while severe were entirely called for. That's okay, but you should try and recognize the pure insanity of some of your arguments before you post them.

 

 

It's not pure insanity, and calling it that while disregarding the potential long-term negative effects is just disingenuous or ignorant. You could make a case that the nerfs that have been happening lately will be less extreme in the future, and that there will be buffs just as extreme coming up, but saying that my arguments are "pure insanity" is simply wrong. They're just what will happen if things keep happening the way they are.

 

Also i heard heavy weapons are getting a nerf, in the form of extra ammo consumption.

[vaugahn]

It's not pure insanity, and calling it that while disregarding the potential long-term negative effects is just disingenuous or ignorant. You could make a case that the nerfs that have been happening lately will be less extreme in the future, and that there will be buffs just as extreme coming up, but saying that my arguments are "pure insanity" is simply wrong. They're just what will happen if things keep happening the way they are.

 

Also i heard heavy weapons are getting a nerf, in the form of extra ammo consumption.

 

It's clear you're impossible to reason with, so I'll just leave you with this: just because we got one update with nerfs in it doesn't mean every update is going to have nerfs in it from here on out. Also, saying that they'll nerf the best thing in the game just because it's the best is absolute nonsense.

 

I'd suggest having a good think about what exactly is going on here with these balance changes.

[xethier]

Angstrum literally only gets less than 10 full shots now. Ogris and penta i don't have as much a problem with.

 

 

 

I very much apreciate that luxury too, but we won't get to keep that luxury if nobody spends money on the game.

 

I think you're the one confused. I'm saying buffs and nerfs should happen on a minimalist scale, and that without a sense of stability, nobody is going to spend actual money on the game. You suggest not spending money on the game, but tell me, what happens when everyone takes that advice?

 

If less nerfs and buffs happened, we could all be a little more sure that, when buying something, what we see is what we get. More funding goes to the game, we all get to keep playing it.

 

angstrum is an explosive pistol... but i'd be willing to bet you're not upset about how quickly you can burn through all your ammo with a high-cyclic machine pistol (furis line) are you? -- 10 full shots of an angstrum... how about adding trick mag?

 

i'm not confused a bit, i recognize the difference between people like me (and you) that have the time to play and those that are the more casual gamers and are willing to spend some cash to bypass the grind. (and i'm not so naive to think they'll suddenly disappear)

 

have you ever heard the term "fail faster"? if not, go google it. it will sum up what DE is doing with radical changes. 

in fact, it will sum up quite a bit of DE's attitude on game development. and it's a very good thing.

in fact, it's the prime reason i'm still here after almost a year of daily play.

 

i'm very happy with the ammo reductions, maybe now i'll see less players running around spamming the crap out of explosive weapons and try to actually put some skill back into their play. 

 

your argument is also predicated with the idea that a large majority of players depend on explosive weaponry, and that's just not the case. (although you do see quite a bit of them in certain areas, irritatingly so)

 

this was a relatively minor nerf in the grand scheme. and i'll reference back to my earlier comment about your expectations not being met. and leave you with this quote:

 

"My Expectations were reduced to zero when I was 21. Everything since then has been a bonus"

-Stephen Hawking

Edited August 22, 2014 by xethier

[insaninater]

It's clear you're impossible to reason with, so I'll just leave you with this: just because we got one update with nerfs in it doesn't mean every update is going to have nerfs in it from here on out. Also, saying that they'll nerf the best thing in the game just because it's the best is absolute nonsense.

 

I'd suggest having a good think about what exactly is going on here with these balance changes.

 

>just because we got one update with nerfs in it doesn't mean every update is going to have nerfs in it from here on out.

 

I already acknowledged that, but a case that the extent of the buffs will be as extensive as the nerfs were is completely fabrication. It could happen, but i've heard they might be getting an ammo consumption nerf as well.

 

Just because i don't agree with you doesn't mean "i can't be reasoned with", the fact that you don't agree with me, by your own argument, makes you just as unreasonable.

 

 

angstrum is an explosive pistol... but i'd be willing to bet you're not upset about how quickly you can burn through all your ammo with a high-cyclic machine pistol (furis line) are you? -- 10 full shots of an angstrum... how about adding trick mag?

 

i'm not confused a bit, i recognize the difference between people like me (and you) that have the time to play and those that are the more casual gamers and are willing to spend some cash to bypass the grind. (and i'm not so naive to think they'll suddenly disappear)

 

have you ever heard the term "fail faster"? if not, go google it. it will sum up what DE is doing with radical changes. 

in fact, it will sum up quite a bit of DE's attitude on game development. and it's a very good thing.

in fact, it's the prime reason i'm still here after almost a year of daily play.

 

i'm very happy with the ammo reductions, maybe now i'll see less players running around spamming the crap out of explosive weapons and try to actually put some skill back into their play. 

 

your argument is also predicated with the idea that a large majority of players depend on explosive weaponry, and that's just not the case.

 

this was a relatively minor nerf in the grand scheme. and i'll reference back to my earlier comment about your expectations not being met. and leave you with this quote:

 

"My Expectations were reduced to zero when I was 21. Everything since then has been a bonus"

-Stephen Hawking

 

I have heard fail faster, and if i could honestly believe, like you do, that these nerfs are a legitimate attempt to improve the game, as opposed to an attempt to appease the people who will always whine about whatever is currently most useful, then i would agree with you. If i could actually believe really intense buffs were coming up, i could agree with you, but for all the improvement snipers and the flux rifle and spectra got, you don't see anyone using them now do you?

 

And i don't think the buyers will suddenly disappear, i just think that the current environment, if it continues the way it has, which it might or might not, but i've been given no reason to think it won't, might gradually make less and less players willing to put down cold cash.

 

As for expectations, having no expectations doesn't change gear i already have. It's not an expectation when something you're already using doesn't work as well, so i could see that being applied to new gear, but not existing gear.

Edited August 22, 2014 by insaninater

[xethier]

-snip-

 

I have heard fail faster, and if i could honestly believe, like you do, that these nerfs are a legitimate attempt to improve the game, as opposed to an attempt to appease the people who will always whine about whatever is currently most useful, then i would agree with you. If i could actually believe really intense buffs were coming up, i could agree with you, but for all the improvement snipers and the flux rifle and spectra got, you don't see anyone using them now do you?

 

And i don't think the buyers will suddenly disappear, i just think that the current environment, if it continues the way it has, which it might or might not, but i've been given no reason to think it won't, might gradually make less and less players willing to put down cold cash.

 

As for expectations, having no expectations doesn't change gear i already have. It's not an expectation when something you're already using doesn't work as well, so i could see that being applied to new gear, but not existing gear.

 

paragraph 1: appeasement... well, "currently most useful" is a subjective argument, i've never found explosive weaponry effective or useful. and they don't need a buff. they're still every bit as powerful as they were. you just have to be more careful about when you use them. and as for the buffs to the flux & spectra, yeah. i've been using the absolute crap out of my flux since the alterations, and i freaking love it.

 

paragraph 2: ps4 players and xbox one players. i also expect a showing on the steambox when it arrives next year. so no. i don't see a gradual reduction of players, i see the inverse.

 

paragraph 3: this entire paragraph is an expectation. "i can see that being applied to new gear, but not existing gear" let me rephrase that for you:

 

"my expectation is that this only applies to new gear not what i already have"

 

see?

 

i understand how you feel. i wasn't happy with damage 2.0 turning my flux rifle into a weaksauce pale joke of a weapon. (i'd forma'd the sucker 4 times by then) but i didn't loose any sleep over it. and guess what, few months later, now it's back to almost the same level of awesome sauce that it was pre-nerf. (and with mirage, it's freaking absurd) 

 

you're talking about a very small sub-set of weaponry that you've grown attached to. find something else to enjoy and wait for the Next Big Thing

[insaninater]

paragraph 1: appeasement... well, "currently most useful" is a subjective argument, i've never found explosive weaponry effective or useful. and they don't need a buff. they're still every bit as powerful as they were. you just have to be more careful about when you use them. and as for the buffs to the flux & spectra, yeah. i've been using the absolute crap out of my flux since the alterations, and i freaking love it.

 

paragraph 2: ps4 players and xbox one players. i also expect a showing on the steambox when it arrives next year. so no. i don't see a gradual reduction of players, i see the inverse.

 

paragraph 3: this entire paragraph is an expectation. "i can see that being applied to new gear, but not existing gear" let me rephrase that for you:

 

"my expectation is that this only applies to new gear not what i already have"

 

see?

 

i understand how you feel. i wasn't happy with damage 2.0 turning my flux rifle into a weaksauce pale joke of a weapon. (i'd forma'd the sucker 4 times by then) but i didn't loose any sleep over it. and guess what, few months later, now it's back to almost the same level of awesome sauce that it was pre-nerf. (and with mirage, it's freaking absurd) 

 

you're talking about a very small sub-set of weaponry that you've grown attached to. find something else to enjoy and wait for the Next Big Thing

 

I just hope your optimism proves accurate.

Edited August 22, 2014 by insaninater

[HalcyonH66]

On the one hand It's definitely true that nerfs and buffs are a required process in balancing the game and part of me went (oh god not another launcher nerf crying thread).

 

To be fair, however, there is a part of me that's terrified to actually invest in anything that comes out in a patch until months down the line. A prime example is Mirage. I love Mirage, I loved the concept art, I love her theme, I love her skills (except SOH, that thing's useless). But from day one people were crying MIRAGE OP NERF. I dropped a forma into her and now every time there's a hotfix I'm waiting with baited breath to see if they've made her into boberon. So part of me get's his point.

[Nichivo]

I agree 100% Mirage most certainly needs a nerf. Not just a whack with a nerf bat either, but call the nerf manufacturers and hit it with every toy they make! 

 

 

Oops! wrong thread. ;~)

[Tiqalicious]

It's a beta. Weapons will be balanced and re-balanced often. Get used to it.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Tiqalicious