Iron Skin Rework

[Renegade343]

Hello all, 

 

This thread will detail a rework to Rhino's Iron Skin so that it can be more useful for higher level content, while keeping it balanced against his other abilities and other Warframe abilities, as well as solidifying his role a bit more. The content is below: 

 

As of U14.5.1, Rhino's Iron Skin adds Ferrite Armour health to Rhino, and that would be depleted first before his shields and health depletes. While this is a good skill for catching one's breath, it does not hold up well to higher level content (we do not care about endless here, but more on level 25-35), since the health addition is a constant. Thus, to change it so that the skill would be more useful at any level, Rhino's Iron Skin will work as thus: 

 

- Grants 9%/18%/27%/36% damage reduction to Rhino when it is cast. This can be altered by Power Strength to a cap of 2.25% at the minimum and 54% at the maximum. 

- Lasts for 4/8/12/16 seconds. This can be altered by Power Duration. 

- Ignores all crowd control and status debuffs. 

- Will not stop health damage in Vampire Mode, as well as not stopping damage over time from Survival when life support = 0%, but will reduce the damage taken from Survival when life support = 0%. 

- Rhino will have a higher aggro compared to other allies when Iron Skin is cast, allowing him to soak fire from other enemies to let his allies breath (fitting his role of a tank). 

- Rhino will still be coated in his current visual iteration of Iron Skin, and there will be a timer UI over the power icon to tell the user the time left for the Iron Skin. Once the time is up, there will be a 0.3s delay before Iron Skin can be cast again. 

 

As for the PVP version, the Iron Skin will work as thus: 

 

- Grants 6%/12%/18%/24% damage reduction to Rhino when it is cast. This can be altered by Power Strength to a cap of 1.5% at the minimum and 36% at the maximum. The damage reduction is calculated as thus: 

 

A bullet of 100 damage hits Rhino, which means it deals 50 damage to his shields (due to PVP damage reduction). 

Then, the 50 damage is reduced by Iron Skin's (24% damage reduction) damage reduction to deal 38 damage. 

 

- Lasts for 3/6/9/12 seconds. This can be altered by Power Duration. 

- Any form of crowd control dealt against Rhino who has casted Iron Skin will make him stagger instead of being knocked down or knocked back. Rhino will also ignore status debuffs.

- Rhino will still be coated in his current visual iteration of Iron Skin, and there will be a timer UI over the power icon to tell the user the time left for the Iron Skin. Once the time is up, there will be a 0.3s delay before Iron Skin can be cast again. 

 

With this rework to Rhino's Iron Skin, it would allow Rhino to be able to function more as a tank role for a team or by himself, as well as making the skill be worth its energy cost even at higher levels. 

 

Please take the time to read this thread, and provide any constructive criticism and feedback. 

 

Renegade343

Edited August 31, 2014 by Renegade343

[Mad-Rujia]

wow making it a damage debuff AND giving it a timer, do not want.

[Mad-Rujia]

atleast give it more damage debuff as trinity level and give it alot more time

[Renegade343]

atleast give it more damage debuff as trinity level and give it alot more time

It is a 50 energy skill that only affects Rhino. I am trying to balance its energy cost to its abilities. 

[Babellon]

Iron skin depletes on damage as it is now. 4500 at max, last I checked, Making it very useful, all the way through the solar map. once you reach mobs that can tear through it speedily, its time to start using a bit more common sense when engaging the mobs, timer is unneccessary, as a sustained damage from mobs will typically remove it pretty quickly. Iron skin is one of the few skills that actually functions properly, without being massively over powered. 

 

In fact i'd go so far as to say rhino is one of the few frames that is actually fine as is. He doesn't need nerfing in any regard, and certainly doesn't need to be any stronger. 

[Photon95]

This pretty much what it was when Warfare just started, so I doubt they would revert it back. Rhino's actually still pretty fine even with the hit limit. Sure Rhino's iron skin falls apart quicker later on, but that's why we have other frames. You can't always depend on a single ability. But I do see where you're going with the agro aspect. Try this, max out range and duration and use stomp. If enough people are effected, not only will you have some down time to move/assist others, but the floating bodies act as a sort of meat shield (assuming enemies don't have punchthrew on allies, correct me if I'm wrong).

Edited August 31, 2014 by Photon95

[Renegade343]

Iron skin depletes on damage as it is now. 4500 at max, last I checked, Making it very useful, all the way through the solar map. once you reach mobs that can tear through it speedily, its time to start using a bit more common sense when engaging the mobs, timer is unneccessary, as a sustained damage from mobs will typically remove it pretty quickly. Iron skin is one of the few skills that actually functions properly, without being massively over powered. 

Last I checked, Iron Skin only goes up to 2748 Ferrite Armour with maximum Blind Rage + Intensify, not 4500. So that is around 60% of your stated value. 

 

And I think Iron Skin, while it does its job, could be better with damage reduction + timed duration. It would still make users be more aware of their surroundings, especially with the fact that Rhino could still die with Iron Skin on from my proposed changes. 

[Zagrax]

All they need to do with iron skin is make it exactly like frost's snowglobe, invuln for X seconds on cast, and it gets extra hp based on damage taken during invuln time, encouraging you to cast it when dps is coming in like a truck and you need to run out and rez someone.

 

The solution provided above will make him even squishier in high end gameplay, making it very unappealing.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Zagrax

[Photon95]

Warframe*

Freaking auto correct.

[Babellon]

Last I checked, Iron Skin only goes up to 2748 Ferrite Armour with maximum Blind Rage + Intensify, not 4500. So that is around 60% of your stated value. 

 

And I think Iron Skin, while it does its job, could be better with damage reduction + timed duration. It would still make users be more aware of their surroundings, especially with the fact that Rhino could still die with Iron Skin on from my proposed changes. 

But it already does damage reduction. ok, 2780 not 4500, still, that's 2780 extra damage you don't take at all, including negating all status effects, knockdowns, so forth. I use rhino most of the time, a timer, while interesting, wouldn't change anything, just make me have to activate it more often. Maybe I'm missunderstanding what you're trying to recommend about its changes, what would changing it to a timer do for it that it doesn't already have?

[Renegade343]

This pretty much what it was when Warfare just started, so I doubt they would revert it back. Rhino's actually still pretty fine even with the hit limit. Sure Rhino's iron skin falls apart quicker later on, but that's why we have other frames. You can't always depend on a single ability. But I do see where you're going with the agro aspect. Try this, max out range and duration and use stomp. If enough people are effected, not only will you have some down time to move/assist others, but the floating bodies act as a sort of meat shield (assuming enemies don't have punchthrew on allies, correct me if I'm wrong).

I am not trying to make Rhino depend on a single ability. I tweaked the damage reduction and timer periods so that Iron Skin becomes more of a power that compliments with his other powers and himself, rather than a power that overshadows everything else. The static value does fall short at the higher levels, but with damage reduction + timer, it would still keep the aspect of keeping him insulated against damage while providing a more solid power for higher levels. 

 

And I know enough of Rhino Stomp to build what I need to build for it (and no, enemies do not have Punch Through on allies, but since the enemies float quite high in the air at times, the meat shield tactic is somewhat unreliable). 

[Renegade343]

But it already does damage reduction. ok, 2780 not 4500, still, that's 2780 extra damage you don't take at all, including negating all status effects, knockdowns, so forth. I use rhino most of the time, a timer, while interesting, wouldn't change anything, just make me have to activate it more often. Maybe I'm missunderstanding what you're trying to recommend about its changes, what would changing it to a timer do for it that it doesn't already have?

What I am doing is this (and for the record, the extra health is more damage negation with respects to shields and health): 

 

Iron Skin is now purely based on duration (removing the extra health). 

Rhino would now have damage reduction when he casts Iron Skin, allowing him to take more hits, although he would still have to look out for his health and shields. 

[Renegade343]

The solution provided above will make him even squishier in high end gameplay, making it very unappealing.

With a 36% damage reduction for 16 seconds just for Iron Skin at max rank, that would not really make him squishy. The skill is balanced up to around level 35-38, not like endless gamemodes. 

[Azawarau]

atleast give it more damage debuff as trinity level and give it alot more time

evne with just 54% his effective HP becomes far higher than it could possibly be with iron skin alone

 

Quick thinking and steel fiber obsolete iron skin entirelybefore DR

 

Imagine after

 

Iron skin depletes on damage as it is now. 4500 at max, last I checked, Making it very useful, all the way through the solar map. once you reach mobs that can tear through it speedily, its time to start using a bit more common sense when engaging the mobs, timer is unneccessary, as a sustained damage from mobs will typically remove it pretty quickly. Iron skin is one of the few skills that actually functions properly, without being massively over powered. 

 

In fact i'd go so far as to say rhino is one of the few frames that is actually fine as is. He doesn't need nerfing in any regard, and certainly doesn't need to be any stronger. 

2700....

 

Its a rework

 

Not a buff

 

It becomes more balanced for early game and actually useful for end game

 

All they need to do with iron skin is make it exactly like frost's snowglobe, invuln for X seconds on cast, and it gets extra hp based on damage taken during invuln time, encouraging you to cast it when dps is coming in like a truck and you need to run out and rez someone.

 

The solution provided above will make him even squishier in high end gameplay, making it very unappealing.

Fixed HP unaffected by armor will always be worse than adding DR

 

DR scales and fixed doesnt

 

But it already does damage reduction. ok, 2780 not 4500, still, that's 2780 extra damage you don't take at all, including negating all status effects, knockdowns, so forth. I use rhino most of the time, a timer, while interesting, wouldn't change anything, just make me have to activate it more often. Maybe I'm missunderstanding what you're trying to recommend about its changes, what would changing it to a timer do for it that it doesn't already have?

You can add 2780 HP or make it based on effective HP and gain much more than that in value

 

With a 36% damage reduction for 16 seconds just for Iron Skin at max rank, that would not really make him squishy. The skill is balanced up to around level 35-38, not like endless gamemodes. 

Except the only part of that its balanced for is the last 8 levels

 

Anything before that rhino steamrolls

[Renegade343]

Except the only part of that its balanced for is the last 8 levels

 

Anything before that rhino steamrolls

Rhino still steamrolls with his current iteration of Iron Skin at max rank at any level before the last 8 levels of level 35-38. All he just does is probably cast it a bit more frequently. 

[Azawarau]

Rhino still steamrolls with his current iteration of Iron Skin at max rank at any level before the last 8 levels of level 35-38. All he just does is probably cast it a bit more frequently. 

With energy efficiency thats pretty much the case

[Babellon]

That sounds more like its making it weaker, not stronger. a damage reduction (50%,75%,40%?), would do more to negate his effectiveness, Lets say Im in this high level location, team mate goes down, I know my skin is only going to last a few seconds on that level, but its just enough time to reserrect an ally. 

 

Don't get me wrong, rhino with a full iron skin build can negate a lot of the content, simply due to practical invulnerability through most normal fights, including most bosses. I've even taken to actually not using the iron skin in lower maps when i'm farming, or leveling a low weapon, simply to remind myself what it feels like to take damage, so i don't get lazy. 

 

How ever if you're trying to buff him for higher level content, taking away that invulnerability wouldn't accomplish that much at all. 

Although with that said, making him take damage through the skin would make the player have to play smarter like with most of the other frames out there. which if that is the goal, then yes, a timer and damage reduction would do that, as opposed to pure invulnerability.

Edited August 31, 2014 by -Malachi-

[Renegade343]

That sounds more like its making it weaker, not stronger. a damage reduction (50%,75%,40%?), would do more to negate his effectiveness, Lets say Im in this high level location, team mate goes down, I know my skin is only going to last a few seconds on that level, but its just enough time to reserrect an ally. 

A 36% damage reduction would actually still make Rhino survive quite a bit longer. Say your average enemy at that high level location deals 55 damage per shot (which seems to be the case in Warframe, from my observations). Then, with damage reduction Iron Skin, Rhino would then take 35.2 damage (rounded down to 35 damage). Besides, it would be likely that at that high level location, people would be equipping Shield+ and/or Health+ mods, so the damage reduction values would actually still be very useful. 

 

How ever if you're trying to buff him for higher level content, taking away that invulnerability wouldn't accomplish that much at all. 

I think trading a very short period of invulnerability (since enemies would shred Iron Skin to pieces at high levels) for scaling damage reduction would be fair enough. 

[Azawarau]

That sounds more like its making it weaker, not stronger. a damage reduction (50%,75%,40%?), would do more to negate his effectiveness, Lets say Im in this high level location, team mate goes down, I know my skin is only going to last a few seconds on that level, but its just enough time to reserrect an ally. 

 

Don't get me wrong, rhino with a full iron skin build can negate a lot of the content, simply due to practical invulnerability through most normal fights, including most bosses. I've even taken to actually not using the iron skin in lower maps when i'm farming, or leveling a low weapon, simply to remind myself what it feels like to take damage, so i don't get lazy. 

 

How ever if you're trying to buff him for higher level content, taking away that invulnerability wouldn't accomplish that much at all. 

I cant even

 

I cannot even

 

DR is more efficient than a fixed number

 

Its actually a buff to iron skin on high tier and a rebalanced for low

 

Rhino will be tankier than ever

 

 

When i did this i was missing a few key defensive mods that i have now

 

Rhino would be able to do this easily

[Renegade343]

Although with that said, making him take damage through the skin would make the player have to play smarter like with most of the other frames out there. which if that is the goal, then yes, a timer and damage reduction would do that, as opposed to pure invulnerability.

Yes. That is the ultimate goal, since having invulnerability at low levels does make the player lazy and unskilled (after all, you can get the Rhino parts from Venus, and the materials from Earth, Venus, Mercury, Jupiter and Europa, which I would consider as low to low-mid level planets [and as for the Orokin Cell, from the bosses (if you are lucky)]. 

 

Then again, the invulnerability would last for quite a short time if you stand still and let the Corpus fire at you (since the current Iron Skin is Ferrite Armour, and it takes +50% to Puncture damage, which the Corpus deals). 

[Babellon]

I see what you're getting at, instead of a blanket 2700 points, have a % reduction, which would apply no matter what level you're in, hm, that would be an interesting change. So farming low levels would still be easy, and since the reduction appllies uniformly it would actually make it more viable in that higher level content, above level 40 I'm assuming you're refering to since anything below lvl 30 is practically nullified in its current form.

[fatpig84]

A value of 40% will be nicer.

*inb4butthurtEmberOverheatfans*

[Renegade343]

A value of 40% will be nicer.

*inb4butthurtEmberOverheatfans*

The value of 36% is sufficient enough to take him through most of the Star Chart already. 40% would start to trivialise the Star Chart. 

[(PSN)maggotsmasher]

NO, do not like that timer idea.

[Renegade343]

NO, do not like that timer idea.

We remove the health addition (i.e.: Damage negation) in exchange for percentage damage reduction and timer (for making it more balanced at lower content and useful at higher content). Not adding the timer to the health addition. 

Edited August 31, 2014 by Renegade343