Fix The Vectis...nay Fix All Snipers

[dadaddadada]

You are all wrong.

 

Guaranteed critical on headshots. That's the solution.

 

Punch-through is for bows. Keep it for bows.

Status chance is for bows. Keep it for bows.

[MagicGnome]

Punch through, super accuracy, and thermal scope is good, then a buff for the vectis, but still impact/puncture/slash base damage, so i can still use it against all the health layers of the corpussies (Shut up it's funny)

[RPGforDINNER]

vectis has this one thing that i like about it

it has 1 shot per mag which means primed chamber or charged chamber is really usefull mod on it

[Niryco]

You are all wrong.

 

Guaranteed critical on headshots. That's the solution.

 

Punch-through is for bows. Keep it for bows.

Status chance is for bows. Keep it for bows.

Even a guaranteed critical headshot with multiplier of 1million will never make a difference if all you are doing is still killing one enemy per shot. The previous sniper buff already demostrated that the difference in stats changes is minimal at best the punch through innate made alot more difference and status chance allowed for AOE procs to be more consistent.

 

Otherwise, given the close combat nature of warframe, even if you could insta gib any enemy with a single headshot which is what generally happens even to level 80 enemies, the effects are still negligible since you just killing one guy, you have about thirty others to account for now good luck ensuring you can even survive one wave of enemies since 72 rounds won't cut it.

 

Insta-gibbing of only one enemy would not improve the general circumstance snipers are in, it would feel amazing but after awhile you would realize that ammo is short, you still can't do amazing things to groups of enemies, you will still get swarmed, in general snipers can't make it because they can't kill groups of enemies other then a straight row shot.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Jacate

[Divinehero]

I'm tellin' you that vectis is fine

 

 

you do realize i can do that w/ every shot w/ my paris prime or dread and that's if i don't red crit

[dadaddadada]

Even a guaranteed critical headshot with multiplier of 1million will never make a difference if all you are doing is still killing one enemy per shot. The previous sniper buff already demostrated that the difference in stats changes is minimal at best the punch through innate made alot more difference and status chance allowed for AOE procs to be more consistent.

 

Otherwise, given the close combat nature of warframe, even if you could insta gib any enemy with a single headshot which is what generally happens even to level 80 enemies, the effects are still negligible since you just killing one guy, you have about thirty others to account for now good luck ensuring you can even survive one wave of enemies since 72 rounds won't cut it.

 

Insta-gibbing of only one enemy would not improve the general circumstance snipers are in, it would feel amazing but after awhile you would realize that ammo is short, you still can't do amazing things to groups of enemies, you will still get swarmed, in general snipers can't make it because they can't kill groups of enemies other then a straight row shot.

 

Nope. You are still wrong. Because you aren't thinking in the right perspective.

 

Snipers are supportive roles. You don't bring a sniper in solo mode unless you got decent melee or secondary weaps. That would be silly.

Snipers take down single heavy units from a distance, while the rest of the team with rifles and bows does the rest of the job.

This is the spirit: 72 bullets = 72 heavy gunners/napalms/bombards down. Your team will thank you in the long run.

 

Again, multikill-per-shot mechanics are not for snipers.

[TwiceDead]

Otherwise, given the close combat nature of warframe, even if you could insta gib any enemy with a single headshot which is what generally happens even to level 80 enemies, the effects are still negligible since you just killing one guy, you have about thirty others to account for now good luck ensuring you can even survive one wave of enemies since 72 rounds won't cut it.

Lanka disagrees. Line up the enemies, fire, done. 

Doesn't fail me until endless scaling catches up, which is the point where balance is no longer a topic. 

 

[Semshol]

well, it's not like anybody is gonna listen to the nonsensical bow-lovers anyway, not to mention that bows wouldnt need to be touched, so what'd be keeping them from using them anyway?

 

Nah, just want to prevent a cycle of buff complaints. I foresee it happening if Snipers are overbuffed.

 

I say get the 35% base first...then if still weak, we can make a legitimate complaint for 100%

[Semshol]

Dude i will be honest with you, even if snipers could do red-crits and have innate punch through, they would still have no purpose whence compared to bows.

 

The reason being is that you will always be in a more vulnerable position rapid firing, or even firing a sniper than a bow because of the zoom magnification. The higher zoom magnification creates the tunnelling vision effect which is only good for a one on one target, but it will suck from switch target to target because the zoom would make target acquisition harder.

 

Unlike a bow where you have a wider field of vision, faster firing, ADS, etc etc, you will never be able to compete. In addition the tunnelling vision effect is not good for groups of enemies, that is why bows are better because you know where you can put that arrow down range to maximize its absurd damage, you can't do that with snipers at all and if you could it would not be easy game.

 

Also zoom of a sniper doesn't help in close range at all, paired with the snipers lower fire-rate with the exception only being the vectis, you cannot ever do well in closer range combat which is what warframe is evolved from mostly. Snipers simply are not suited for the combat that is present within the game.

 

No stats changes will affect the snipers, they just get stronger but overall they are limited mechanics wise and even now they also have punch through but seriously that is the only seriously and positive change that has its effects noticeable. There is also a reason why the lanka can still beat the vectis and it is not because it has higher damage, but because the electric proc allows it to hit more than 5 enemies with one shot, paired with the punch through, you could kill up to 20 enemies in a single shot.

 

No matter how it is way better to have an AOE weapon than a oneshot weapon in warframe. Pretty much any gun can oneshot a level 30 enemy, or even two shot them if they are that weak(glaxion) but the main difference is how many enemeis can you one shot in a single shot, that is what matters and snipers can only do it in a straight row, similar to all weapons with a shred on, thus making this distinction not even a proper novelty.

 

These weapons need more purpose outside of stats hogging. Also firing one doesn't generate a powerful feel, the snipers i have to admit have a dull feel, it sounds like they make more high pitched noises(low calibre rounds) than the booms(high calibre rounds).

 

Snipers can AoE in a straight line with punch-through, any weapon can. Also I can out-shoot/out-aim a bow user on Vectis. It's really not about that.

 

Bows have their advantages and disadvantages. The idea is not to make snipers = to bows.

 

The idea is to make the gap less wide so snipers become a viable alternative choice to bows. Hence my suggestions.

 

As for the scopes, I kinda like them, though I guess some people have difficulty aiming with them.

[Semshol]

You are all wrong.

 

Guaranteed critical on headshots. That's the solution.

 

Punch-through is for bows. Keep it for bows.

Status chance is for bows. Keep it for bows.

 

If bows are status weapons they shouldn't have crits, but they are crit. weapons, not status weapons.

 

Snipers are also crit weapons. Both focus on one-shotting, but bows have Crowd Control potential, which only some snipers have. I want all snipers to have this potential, especially the Vectis which is the MOST in need of it. This way the gap between the two-lessens.

 

Status weapons are things like Amprex, Grakata, Boar Prime, Phage.

[dadaddadada]

If bows are status weapons they shouldn't have crits, but they are crit. weapons, not status weapons.

 

Snipers are also crit weapons. Both focus on one-shotting, but bows have Crowd Control potential, which only some snipers have. I want all snipers to have this potential, especially the Vectis which is the MOST in need of it. This way the gap between the two-lessens.

 

Status weapons are things like Amprex, Grakata, Boar Prime, Phage.

 

Sir, please do pardon my acidity here but seriously...

 

In what twisted state of mind do you need to be to state that sniper rifles should have crowd control potential?

Sniper rifles are called "sniper rifles" because they snipe stuff. Sounds incredible, right?

 

I don't want to play a Vectis as a hit-scan bow. If you are really so much in need for some AoE/multikill then grab a Metal Auger and don't complain.

Snipers must stay different to bows, as in Warframe they are supposed to fulfill different roles.

Edited September 3, 2014 by dadaddadada

[Kylecrafts]

i guess doing some calculation is hard to the guy balancing weapons.

That's DE Scott, you're insulting.

AKA "Grineeer", as his account alias.

[Znoly]

40% base crit and 2m innate punch through, problem fixed. Make this happen pls DE :)

 

My most used weapon is the vectis at a whopping 50+% at over 900hrs+ stopped using it coz the bows just outclass it sadly. Only use it for fun these days. First time i got the vectis made, i loved the look of the gun. Its so friggen huge! i was disappointed that it didn't punch through though but that didn't stop me from using the gun. Seriously all the vectis got was a status % buff? what were they thinking... when i heard snipers was getting a buff i was hopeful that the vectics would finally be at 100% crit with mods and if it got an innate punch through that would of been extra icing on the cake.

[JacobLittle]

LOL! I would feel like super man :)

http://redfaction.wikia.com/wiki/EDF_Rail_Driver

 

 

The Rail Driver(Sniper Rifle) shoots ultra-high velocity depleted uranium slugs that appear like blue beams of light and can penetrate almost anything including vehicles and structures, effectively making cover irrelevant to the wielder and turning vehicles into death traps thanks to its powerful x-ray scope.

 

I have used this thing a lot. It has travel time as well so it takes some time getting use to especially in multiplayer.

Edited September 3, 2014 by JacobLittle

[Semshol]

Sir, please do pardon my acidity here but seriously...

 

In what twisted state of mind do you need to be to state that sniper rifles should have crowd control potential?

Sniper rifles are called "sniper rifles" because they snipe stuff. Sounds incredible, right?

 

I don't want to play a Vectis as a hit-scan bow. If you are really so much in need for some AoE/multikill then grab a Metal Auger and don't complain.

Snipers must stay different to bows, as in Warframe they are supposed to fulfill different roles.

 

A sniper rifle snipes things. Yes, we all know that.

 

However, in what universe can a sniper round NOT penetrate through a body? Even with our current technology this is possible.

 

Other snipers have innate punch-through already. Why not the Vectis? Should we remove it from those?

 

The innate punch-through will bring the Vectis on par with the other snipers. They do not require metal auger or shred, the Vectis should not either.

[Semshol]

http://redfaction.wikia.com/wiki/EDF_Rail_Driver

 

 

The Rail Driver(Sniper Rifle) shoots ultra-high velocity depleted uranium slugs that appear like blue beams of light and can penetrate almost anything including vehicles and structures, effectively making cover irrelevant to the wielder and turning vehicles into death traps thanks to its powerful x-ray scope.

 

I have used this thing a lot. It has travel time as well so it takes some time getting use to especially in multiplayer.

 

It would be cool :)

[OnnaJReverT]

http://redfaction.wikia.com/wiki/EDF_Rail_Driver

 

 

The Rail Driver(Sniper Rifle) shoots ultra-high velocity depleted uranium slugs that appear like blue beams of light and can penetrate almost anything including vehicles and structures, effectively making cover irrelevant to the wielder and turning vehicles into death traps thanks to its powerful x-ray scope.

 

I have used this thing a lot. It has travel time as well so it takes some time getting use to especially in multiplayer.

i @(*()$ loved that gun in red faction, i think ill download it again right now just to pop some heads through a lot of walls

[DSpite]

A sniper rifle is a weapon that trades magazine capacity and fire rate for a "one shot-one kill" deal.

 

This does not happen in Warframe.

 

The Vectis completely loses out to bows and the advantage of hit-scan being better for head-shots doesn't do much to help its case. For weapons that are in the same class..there really shouldn't be such a gap.

 

So here, this is what is needed to fix the Vectis, I have forma'd and potato'd one, so this is being said after a comparison to Paris Prime similarly forma'd and potato'd.

 

Vectis:

- Increase crit rate to 35% base

- Innate punch-through of 2m

 

I mean seriously, an arrow fired by a string can punch-through AND ragdoll...but a sniper round can only go through one body? Don't make sense right?

 

With just those two fixes, the Vectis will become viable and snipers will finally have their day. In fact JUST the punch-through fix alone would be enough.

 

I am unable to test other snipers because the performance of Vectis just shut me down.

 

Please don't try and use logic in sci-fi. And even if you tried, you can't compare a kinetic bullet from a sniper rifle to an arrow from a bow that has a linear accelerator as the launching mechanics, that for all you know is firing mono molecular arrows. The Paris is closer to a Ballista firing small bolts then a compound bow.

 

I've already stated elsewhere that the greatest issues comparing bows to snipers is that bow users will run forward just like players with guns, while most sniper users will try to stop in one spot and clear the field, and because this game favors more running and gunning, and have cramped, contorted tiles, sniper users don't get a chance to shine. Also, everyone keeps getting in the way.

[OnnaJReverT]

Please don't try and use logic in sci-fi. And even if you tried, you can't compare a kinetic bullet from a sniper rifle to an arrow from a bow that has a linear accelerator as the launching mechanics, that for all you know is firing mono molecular arrows. The Paris is closer to a Ballista firing small bolts then a compound bow.

 

I've already stated elsewhere that the greatest issues comparing bows to snipers is that bow users will run forward just like players with guns, while most sniper users will try to stop in one spot and clear the field, and because this game favors more running and gunning, and have cramped, contorted tiles, sniper users don't get a chance to shine. Also, everyone keeps getting in the way.

i have no problem moving with my vectis (even while zoomed in) and adjusting my aim accordingly, somebody who uses snipers for any amount of time will learn that sooner or later

[Niryco]

Nope. You are still wrong. Because you aren't thinking in the right perspective.

 

Snipers are supportive roles. You don't bring a sniper in solo mode unless you got decent melee or secondary weaps. That would be silly.

Snipers take down single heavy units from a distance, while the rest of the team with rifles and bows does the rest of the job.

This is the spirit: 72 bullets = 72 heavy gunners/napalms/bombards down. Your team will thank you in the long run.

 

Again, multikill-per-shot mechanics are not for snipers.

But it is already possible to take down more than 72 heavy gunners/napalms/bombards/eximus with 72 rounds. Lanka and vectis very easily can do it, so why is there any need for a damage increase at all?

 

The fact snipers do not stand out is because no one uses them for common mobs and that when you do see heavy gunners/napalms/eximus/bombards or whatever is in this game, there are about 50 other weapons that have the DPS potential do kill it too, even if snipers did over 1million damage again, who would want to fight level 90 or 100 enemies on a daily basis, only a very small handful and by that time weapons become so ineffective your sniper would start to shine and also fail because you would realize then that no one can even handle the common mobs too.

 

You have to realize, people are optimizing builds to face all possible outcomes, not niche outcomes and that is why snipers never make it. They are rarely every needed, can be substituted by more appropriate weapons to increase killing speeds and increase drop rates due to more mobs killed. Snipers in general therefore cannot even compete with a rifle like boltor prime because simply it cannot effectively kill normal mobs. Only some snipers are used for the purity of its status chance + additional damage, but tysis does better. The whole point of snipers tackling heavy units is also so moot, launchers do it better with more AOE which is way more useful for end-game, how are you going to straight line AOE mobs that walk in groups of 10 but in a horizontal fashion. You can get your chu-chu train enemy zerging in defense but good luck elsewhere, this world only gives you one place for snipers to be useful, everywhere else it has no purpose, use or competitiveness.

 

To tell me that i don't see snipers in the right perspective is like saying i formaed my lanka 3 times for nothing. I formaed my lanka 3 times because i need more status chance, it can only work as a status build to be effective in a whole match. If i forced the gun to kill heavies only you would realize that your purpose in survival only starts at 10 to 15 minutes, by that the mobs still aren't trouble. Once it reaches 30 minutes and you get ready to use your weapon, everyone leaves. There is therefore no point in making it do such absurd damage when you can't even deal with lower end mobs at all, you just make yourself, your weapon a liability and wasted space which could contribute to higher DPS and other more positive benefits.

 

Not to mention using marelok is almost the same as using a sniper, heck the mods for damage are even better, so why the heck should i therefore build a sniper? So many pistols can swap out snipers for damage, my marelok isn't even max or forma'ed and i am dealing around half the damage of my sniper and it is enough because mobs don't survive long enough for me to care. Even if they did the team would be requesting extract, therefore there is almost no point going beyond that damage barrier unless i have friends that want to play that level.

 

Even then, when they did, they would not use snipers but stuff like amprex, phage, penta, quanta, orgis because they can spread damage better, the whole point of combat in this game even against heavy mobs is AOE. Once it gets past 30 mins, heavies spawn in groups of roughly 2 to 3, it would be way better to use a penta to kill them than a waste a sniper round. Reason being even if you can kill a heavy gunner/bombard 2 times over, you just wasted your half your DPS on nothing because you overkilled an enemy, a round from a penta can spread it to many mobs and so even though it overkills, atleast it doesn't just kill one but many. The whole set up of the game doesn't allow snipers to exist in general due to mob behaviour, crowding and general mission progression. No Stats change will change that.

 

Many games know when stats change would change anything, and this is one of those situations where stats don't matter, it is how the situation is approached from a holistic point of view that matters.

 

Snipers can AoE in a straight line with punch-through, any weapon can. Also I can out-shoot/out-aim a bow user on Vectis. It's really not about that.

 

Bows have their advantages and disadvantages. The idea is not to make snipers = to bows.

 

The idea is to make the gap less wide so snipers become a viable alternative choice to bows. Hence my suggestions.

 

As for the scopes, I kinda like them, though I guess some people have difficulty aiming with them.

Straight line AOE is so common, all rifles with shred can do it, what even makes it special anymore is simply the distance and even than it is not a novelty anymore as an AOE technique, it has become common placed and taken granted for, whence compared to last time that metal auger with its pathetic + 0.5punch through being the only punch through mod for 15 mod points, snipers could still stand out easily with its higher damage and atleast hold out on par with the auto rifles against common foes.

 

To make snipers as viable you need to make ADS context the same, otherwise the situation you place yourself in is never justifiable because an additional zoom as i say will always hamper close range combat even for micro seconds that a bow gains. This microseconds used for aiming is only the most prominent mechanics distinguishing factors between a bow and sniper.

 

All others, crits and status chance plus the pinning, those are stats difference and even with the 30% increase across the board, even if snipers can do red crits, they still cannot compete with bows because bows can be used effectively against light enemies, snipers cannot. It is only possible for the lanka and i use one to know that electric + gas build is the main reason why it can, the status chance on the weapon makes it viable that way, that is also why all snipers are starting to become status weapons because the real problem is that killing niche mobs are not niche in the game at all, utility skills and four players firing at these mobs still kill them.

 

Having a sniper on a team for the purpose of taking out heavy mobs while taking away most of its DPS from common mobs is a math disaster, you effectively remove up to nearly a potential of 80K of DPS to focus on rarer mobs at later levels that warframes and in general would never be able to survive a direct hit or 2 seconds under its glare. Also given how during later level/endless timings mobs tend to cluster spawn so much, you need a weapon that can effectively tackle high end mobs but still deal DPS to lower end ones.

 

The reason why the gap exist is that bows can do that without much sacrifice because it can function better close range, it can fire faster, it can punch through mobs with a wider arc(flying body of mobs is the arc size of the AOE in a straight line) whereas compared to a sniper it is a dot on the screen. Snipers would therefore not be able to compete at all because they simply cannot deal with common mobs.

 

Focusing snipers on high end mobs, focusing snipers to have equity with bows is in its entirety not warranting the existence of snipers at all, to create a objective standard to which both weapon's pros and cons can be effectively distributed is impossible not because that doesn't exist but because as i said earlier, the situations by which combat takes place would generally negate the disadvantages accompanied from using a bow. The same scenarios however amplify the disadvantages of snipers because snipers with zoom and the inability to effectively deal with weaker swarms in close quarters wastes it overall potential in game, and because players can't go on for 60 minutes and not expect to be down every single second, a penta or orgis would be the better alternative to a sniper.

 

The game is set up such that snipers have no use. No statistical sniper changes will change how this works, either the snipers are change mechanics wise to be more than a replaceable between bows and launchers, and that combat scenarios are not limited to what they are now. When i say more than a replaceable between bows and launchers, means it stands on its own without being able to compared to the rest, as it stands snipers in general work as one extreme that is not working, it has the fastest bullet speed, minimal damage AOE of the high damage catergory and it has a mag. Bows with slower speed, better AOE cat and improved DPS, lauchers are slowest, best AOE and massive damage.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Jacate

[JacobLittle]

i @(*()$ loved that gun in red faction, i think ill download it again right now just to pop some heads through a lot of walls

Once hid within a container(reconstructed it) and sniped all day. Never got found.

[Feallike]

The Lanka has innate Punchthrough... and 300 base damage, and its charge time is slower then Vectis reload, and it has high status chance...

 

though it has only 25% crit chance. ;( i criez everytimz

[PlayGooYa]

Jacate needs to quit writing entire books just to say that snipers don't fit well into a fast-paced game like Warframe. It's missing the point. Particularly when the guy he's talking isn't talking about achieving role parity between snipers and bows and has said as much.

 

It's reasonable to point out that snipers should have consistent damage (100% crit rate) to offset the time spent scoping and aiming them.

It's also reasonable to ask that they have some kind of upside to offset their inferior handling compared to all other weapons (e.g. more innate punchthrough).

 

These are obvious problems outside of all the usual taglines about "Warframe is a fast-paced game rabble rabble rabble."

Edited September 4, 2014 by PlayGooYa

[Semshol]

Please don't try and use logic in sci-fi. And even if you tried, you can't compare a kinetic bullet from a sniper rifle to an arrow from a bow that has a linear accelerator as the launching mechanics, that for all you know is firing mono molecular arrows. The Paris is closer to a Ballista firing small bolts then a compound bow.

 

I've already stated elsewhere that the greatest issues comparing bows to snipers is that bow users will run forward just like players with guns, while most sniper users will try to stop in one spot and clear the field, and because this game favors more running and gunning, and have cramped, contorted tiles, sniper users don't get a chance to shine. Also, everyone keeps getting in the way.

 

You can move and shoot. Anyone who uses snipers can do so.

 

We also synergize with Nyx to get enemies to stand-still.

 

The points you made are because you haven't fully experienced sniping. Real snipers don't stay still and we can constantly reposition, but we are forced to mod for punch-through, while bows already have it.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Semshol

[Semshol]

-snip-

 

I think you do not have enough experience with proper sniping.

 

Let me tell you how I came to the conclusion I have:

 

I started my journey of headshotting with the Latron Prime, still one of my favourite weapons to date.

 

I then got the Latron Wraith which is now better than the prime.

 

I then moved on to the Vectis, thinking it would be an upgrade since it has the same crit rate as the Wraith, but a trade-off in fire-rate, which I never needed.

 

I was awed by the scope. it was so effective for me that sniping became enjoyable and by the way, most good snipers just go in and out of their scope. We don't stay in scope mode, it's a technique called sighting and we move around as much as bow users. If not, we use Nyx and have everyone stand still for a little bit.

 

In any case, I discovered that the crit rate of the Latron wraith is not enough when applied to the Vectis. Instead, it need a crit rate just a step above the Soma in order to have very reliable crits on every shot.

 

Next to compensate for fire-rate versus level 70+ mobs, which is where it SHOULD be shining. The innate punch-through is necessary because that allows it to kill the heavy AND thin the crowd. Most good Vectis snipers will fire a round every second and shred through enemy hordes, this is simply what we do. Innate punch-through will make us viable against level 70+ hordes which is what we want and which is what we are getting with bows at the moment.

 

If these statistical changes are applied to the Vectis, just group up with me in game and I'll show you how I outshoot a bow user. Snipers have the same role as the bow to be perfectly frank. High damage designed to take out a big target, the only question is whether or not DE can allow snipers to have that role by balancing their stats. Their firing mechanics can be gotten around in other ways once you have crit rate boost + innate punch-through.

 

We don't want red-crits or even perfect crits. We just want 35% and innate, that's all I need to wreck stuff with a minimal margin of error.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Semshol