Mods Affecting The Core Gameplay Are Harder To Rank Compared To Utility Mods. Why?

[onemoonlight]

One would think youd be more focused on making the game easier for newer players, but increasing the difficulty for veterans, right? Once you hook someone up, you want them to stay and have stuff to do. Apparently not.

 

At the very core this game comes down to dealing damage and taking damage. As such, mods that affect base damage, shields and hp are the most important ones to have. Fair enough. But why do they take so much effort to max out? Shouldnt that be the case with utility mods instead? Stuff like reload speed, ammo capacity, mag capacity? Warframe armor mod is a good example of utility done right... if only hp and shields were easier to rank, that is.

 

Shotguns and melee weapons have those mods capped at rank 5, why arent rifle, pistol and hp/shield mods like that?

 

tl;dr: entry barrier to the farm fest is too high, and once you mange to not quit the game out of frustration and reach it, ranking everything else that just helps but isnt mandatory seems like a breeze. Why not switch it?

[Adenela]

how long have you played this game? The only reason why most of those 'utility' mods exist is so that new players can at least put something in their weapons until they max out their essential mods. Now how many essential mods are there? About 6 or so. How many left over slots do you have for utility mods? Maybe 1 because chances are you'll just put another damage mod on. If you make utility mods more difficult to obtain/grind than essential mods then there will be even less reason to keep those mods in the game because lets face it, we barely use them as is.

Edited September 15, 2014 by lkkie

[Primed_SuperNova]

yeah it would b really fun to watch everyone new to game ranking their serration , hornet strike , corrupted mods to rank 10 in 10 days or so ...yeah  game would be  " moooore " interesting 

Edited September 15, 2014 by --Q--xWindBladex

[onemoonlight]

yeah it would b really fun to watch everyone new to game ranking their serration , hornet strike , corrupted mods to rank 10 in 10 days or so ...yeah  game would be  " moooore " interesting 

 

Not rank 10 but rank 5, and it would be compensated by other mods having more ranks - the ones that are not essential.

 

Why did you bring up corrupted mods into it tho? They are not core to the basic gameplay.

 

 

how long have you played this game? The only reason why most of those 'utility' mods exist is so that new players can at least put something in their weapons until they max out their essential mods. Now how many essential mods are there? About 6 or so. How many left over slots do you have for utility mods? Maybe 1 because chances are you'll just put another damage mod on. If you make utility mods more difficult to obtain/grind than essential mods then there will be even less reason to keep those mods in the game because lets face it, we barely use them as is.

 

You WOULD use them to min/max for endgame. Entry barrier into the game should be lower, lategame stuff should be harder, or maybe i am mistaken in that?

Edited September 15, 2014 by onemoonlight

[MDRLOz]

There is something in what you are saying onemoonlight. However I think you will find that its not quite entirely true. 

 

Personally I feel that shotgun and melee should also have ten ranks. That way they would take longer to scale and give more of a feel of progression. 

 

5 rank uncommon mods are very easy to max and then they are done. 

 

It takes a lot of time to get a ten rank mod to lvl 10 but the amount of effort to get each level increases more than the reward. So a player with rank 8 serration is not that far behind one with rank 10. 

 

Also those mods are common or uncommon. 

 

The true scaling for veterans come from Rare rank 10 mods like Heavy caliber or blind rage. These give large buffs but with a trade off. Also being rare mods they take massive amounts of fusion power to level. 

 

Lastly you said that warframe armour was easier to level compared to Hp and shields? All three are common rank 10 mods and take the same amount to level. It could be use are using the cracked "broken" version of the armour mod and have not yet found the ten rank version. 

[Monolake]

Cause long-term progression. The rank of your Serration means more than your mastery rank or frames levels.

[onemoonlight]

There is something in what you are saying onemoonlight. However I think you will find that its not quite entirely true. 

 

Personally I feel that shotgun and melee should also have ten ranks. That way they would take longer to scale and give more of a feel of progression. 

 

5 rank uncommon mods are very easy to max and then they are done. 

 

It takes a lot of time to get a ten rank mod to lvl 10 but the amount of effort to get each level increases more than the reward. So a player with rank 8 serration is not that far behind one with rank 10. 

 

Also those mods are common or uncommon. 

 

The true scaling for veterans come from Rare rank 10 mods like Heavy caliber or blind rage. These give large buffs but with a trade off. Also being rare mods they take massive amounts of fusion power to level. 

 

Lastly you said that warframe armour was easier to level compared to Hp and shields? All three are common rank 10 mods and take the same amount to level. It could be use are using the cracked "broken" version of the armour mod and have not yet found the ten rank version. 

 

You make good points, especially about rare and corrupted mods, but that is endgame stuff. I am talking about new player entry barrier being too high to the point of it being too frustrating to get your core mods running, compared to utility mods. How does that translate to longevity of the game? How many players just quit before they get redirection and serration up and running and before they experience endgame content?

 

As in it should take10 ranks of shotgun/melee damage to reach the same 90% and 120% base damage (to not alter the balance)? More annoyance and farming for the sake of progression?

 

I've said that armor is a good example of utility mod done right, as in it has 10 ranks instead of 5.

[Zinthir]

One would think youd be more focused on making the game easier for newer players, but increasing the difficulty for veterans, right? Once you hook someone up, you want them to stay and have stuff to do. Apparently not.

 

At the very core this game comes down to dealing damage and taking damage. As such, mods that affect base damage, shields and hp are the most important ones to have. Fair enough. But why do they take so much effort to max out? Shouldnt that be the case with utility mods instead? Stuff like reload speed, ammo capacity, mag capacity? Warframe armor mod is a good example of utility done right... if only hp and shields were easier to rank, that is.

 

Shotguns and melee weapons have those mods capped at rank 5, why arent rifle, pistol and hp/shield mods like that?

 

tl;dr: entry barrier to the farm fest is too high, and once you mange to not quit the game out of frustration and reach it, ranking everything else that just helps but isnt mandatory seems like a breeze. Why not switch it?

Do you happen to have any rank 10 mods of your own?

[vleessjuu]

I think the real problem is that utility mods are simply rather useless to begin with. I kinda like that mods like Serration keep scaling for a while longer because it give you something to do. And besides: a rank 5-6 Serration already gives you a lot of damage while it's still relatively easy to get it there. Don't get hung up on the fact that your Serration is not maxed out. Neither is mine, but you can still get your damage up just fine with the help of other mods. The damage you can get out of rank 5 mods is still good enough for 99% of the game.

If anything is a problem, I think it's the drop rate of Serration. For an uncommon mod it feels like it's much rarer than it should be, tbh. Took me ages to get my first one.

[onemoonlight]

Do you happen to have any rank 10 mods of your own?

 

Doing 9->10 mods atm. And im doing that at mastery 9. Pretty late, right? Again, those are mods that are affecting the very core gameplay. Most people will quit the game at much lower mastery level, BEFORE even having a taste of how a maxed mod changes said gameplay. You like the game, right? How long will it last with small influx of newer players, out of which most will just quit? Entry level into the game is really big, with how much stuff you have to worry at lower ranks.

 

And contrary to popular belief, game development is not a charity, even if a game is f2p. It has to make money to at least pay for the servers.

[manub]

You make good points, especially about rare and corrupted mods, but that is endgame stuff. I am talking about new player entry barrier being too high to the point of it being too frustrating to get your core mods running, compared to utility mods. How does that translate to longevity of the game? How many players just quit before they get redirection and serration up and running and before they experience endgame content?

 

As in it should take10 ranks of shotgun/melee damage to reach the same 90% and 120% base damage (to not alter the balance)? More annoyance and farming for the sake of progression?

 

I've said that armor is a good example of utility mod done right, as in it has 10 ranks instead of 5.

I feel melee & shotgun dmg mods are easier to max because their use is somewhat more limited

after all melee weapons have lower dmg & firerate stats compared to most ranged weapons, & shotgun have the spread & dmg falloff mechanics

so these are easier to max but their use is more limited

most ranged weapons have vastly superior ranges & precision compared to the 2 above so maxing their mods should logically be harder

 

as for redirection/vitality/... , as you said these mods have the most impact on the game, shouldn't maxing them be somewhat harder too? if everyone maxes them the sooner where would be the challenge of the game?

[onemoonlight]

I feel melee & shotgun dmg mods are easier to max because their use is somewhat more limited

after all melee weapons have lower dmg & firerate stats compared to most ranged weapons, & shotgun have the spread & dmg falloff mechanics

so these are easier to max but their use is more limited

most ranged weapons have vastly superior ranges & precision compared to the 2 above so maxing their mods should logically be harder (...)

 

I see, that does make sense.

 

 

(...) as for redirection/vitality/... , as you said these mods have the most impact on the game, shouldn't maxing them be somewhat harder too? if everyone maxes them the sooner where would be the challenge of the game?

 

In maxing other mods that would have 10 ranks instead of 5. The whole point im making is that essentials are too hard to rank, so the entry into the game is too hard, while the utility mods are too easy to rank, so that veterans just rank them effortlessly, and then complain there is no endgame content.

 

Im making an argument that it should be switched. The essentials should have 5 ranks, while other mods - mods that "help" instead of being "core" - should have 10 ranks.

 

It helps to keep lowbies and newbies in the game, as they reach "the core" faster. Helps to give veterans stuff to play for in minmaxing utility mods to help with endgame content, instead of breezing through ranking up each new mod that comes out.

[manub]

In maxing other mods that would have 10 ranks instead of 5. The whole point im making is that essentials are too hard to rank, so the entry into the game is too hard, while the utility mods are too easy to rank, so that veterans just rank them effortlessly, and then complain there is no endgame content.

 

Im making an argument that it should be switched. The essentials should have 5 ranks, while other mods - mods that "help" instead of being "core" - should have 10 ranks.

 

It helps to keep lowbies and newbies in the game, as they reach "the core" faster. Helps to give veterans stuff to play for in minmaxing utility mods to help with endgame content, instead of breezing through ranking up each new mod that comes out.

I see, but this would need a huge revising of utility mods, their stats & effects. most of them are not up to the changes you're suggesting *cough* proc chance mods *cough*

[MDRLOz]

 

Im making an argument that it should be switched. The essentials should have 5 ranks, while other mods - mods that "help" instead of being "core" - should have 10 ranks.

 

Hmm can we get a bit of clarification on your definition of utility mods? 

I have only seen you list two definitions for mods. Core and utility. What about elemental damage mods? What about damage affecting mods like multi-shot and punch through? What about status chance mods and also the damage/status mods?

 

 

As in it should take10 ranks of shotgun/melee damage to reach the same 90% and 120% base damage (to not alter the balance)? More annoyance and farming for the sake of progression?

 

Both shotgun and melee still need a buff overall. I say get the damage values at rank 5. Then times them by 1.5 and finally divide by 10 to get the new 10 rank mod values. 

 

Overall I am behind your idea as it means more 10 rank mods, which I like and think we should have more of. However If I compare my shotgun and my rifle now I find my rifle feels more of an achievement because it has a maxed serration in it. 

 

Also Shotguns simply cheated by having a second damage mod (Blaze) that has no downsides. 

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

 

And contrary to popular belief, game development is not a charity, even if a game is f2p. It has to make money to at least pay for the servers.

That is why new players buy plat from DE in order to buy max rank mods.

[Jokubas]

I thought about this the other day, and I think the Core Mods acting different isn't just a problem for new players, but a reason the endgame is so broken.

 

I've been playing this game for what (for me at least) has been a decent amount of time. I've gotten to the Mastery Rank I've wanted, I've maxed out every weapon, frame, and Sentinel I wanted, and I've gotten every Mod I've wanted. Everything I have is pretty much filled to capacity, but, you know, if I try to solo Nightmare content or the last couple of planets, or try to do some of the harder content with a couple of other people like me, it's still a huge challenge.

 

For awhile I thought maybe I'm just not so good at the game. But then I realized that while I've maxed out most of my mods, I'm still within capacity, while everyone else is always talking about how many Forma they have installed. There never seemed to be enough room on anything to ever need that, until I realized that there are a handful of Mods in the game that inexplicably have a ton of extra ranks (I realized that long before I just implied, but I felt narrating it this way is best for my point). These Mods also happen to be the ones with the most sheer and universal power.

 

Is that really necessary?

 

I feel like if all of those mods were capped at the same level as most Mods (like they are where they're sitting on my equipment), you'd still be awesome, but the higher end stuff would still be challenging. We wouldn't have to force Conclave Rating limits on content in an attempt to make things hard.

 

I really wouldn't want to suggest bringing everything up to the same level, because even if more Forma could make it viable long term, the grind on those higher ranks goes beyond any kind of fun progression. Taking down the number would limit current progression in the game, but it would open the window for more interesting and engaging kinds of progression, rather than a forced power grind that makes you too powerful for the game's good.

 

It's just a guess though. I don't know the numbers very well, but with the current progression, it seems really broken that there are still players several orders of magnitude more powerful than me (and makes it pretty much impossible to balance new/hard content).

 

As for utility Mods, their problem isn't just that the universal Mods are strictly more useful and scale better (which is definitely a problem). It's that, since they're all percentage based, on the items they'd make a good trade-off for, they barely help, and the items that don't really need the boost, they're just win-more. When those Mods are percentage based, a glass cannon (for example) can never be anything but a glass cannon, so even a casual player is going to min-max that role. The utility mods will never be worth it unless they actually give you a choice to, say, sacrifice a bit of that cannon to make it a bit sturdier than glass, in addition to being able to choose to simply exaggerate the existing role.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Jokubas

[vleessjuu]

Honestly, I don't understand that complaint. Once you start putting forma on weapons, you can still scale them up a ton even without a rank 10 serration. There's plenty of other mods available. I'm still running rank 6 serration and have enough damage to run OD, Nightmare and TIV without any real issues (okay, it's not easy, but very doable). And I don't even have a Boltor Prime either (Amprex is my favorite gun, btw, followed by Latron Wraith and Soma).

I really feel like Serration and such are in a good spot: once you get them (which can take a long time, though), you can quickly rank them up to 5-6 or even 7 if you want and that really gives you a very significant boost. The remaining 60-ish% is, while still quite a lot, just icing on the cake.