Yet Another Modding System Rework Idea

[Brynslustafir]

First I'll go over some of the best ideas I've seen and then move on with my idea. 

 

Over time I've seen tons of really good threads about proposed reworks to the entire modding system of Warframe. Some of these threads propose elliminating essential mods like Serration, Point blank, Redirection, and Vitality and instead having the buffs be applied to the frame/weapon as it ranks up so that we have more room to experiment with mods that simply aren't worth swapping out a serration for. 

 

Some of these threads propose replacing the 10-tile system for warframe mods(or the 8-tile system for weapon mods) with 3 or 4 sets of tiles that apply to different factors of a frame or weapons performance. For example, a frame would have 3 sets of tiles, each set containing a certain number of spaces. One set applies to durability, one applies to mobility, and the last applies to utility. Idealy, there wouldn't be any ability mods anymore(instead, you would always have all 4 abilites available to you at all times), so the utility slot could be reserved for mods that affect the usefulness or effectiveness of the abilities. 

 

These are both really good ideas, but I've got an idea of my own that I'd like to add to the pile.

 

What if instead of applying mods to your warframe that affect all of your abilities, you have a separate set of spaces to mod out each ability Individually?

That is, instead of having duration, strength, range, and efficiency mods that alter all of your abilities, you could choose which mods to apply to each ability? 

I came up with this when I was working on maximizing my Saryn, and I realized that in order to make this ult ability as good as it can be, I'd have to polarize away all 3 of the other ability slots. I'm forced to choose between one really good ability or a bunch of 'meh' abilities. Obviously, in the interest of late-game viability I decided to go ahead and maximize for Miasma. 

But wouldn't it be better if we could mod out one ability without ruining the usefulness of another? You need to use corrupted mods in order to make most abilities good enough for late-game use, but using corrupted mods usually means sacrifing one or more ability to make another stronger. 

This change would give players more freedom in terms of modding out ther warframes. This way, you can mod for one ability without completely ruining the others. It would also make gameplay a lot more interesting since you won't just be standing in one place spamming the same ability key over and over because it's the only ability you've got. 

In hindsight, this idea is basically an evolution of the proposition to replace the 10 tile system with multiple sets of separate tiles. Except that the utility set would be replaced with 4 sets, 1 for each ability.

Of course, you won't have 10 mod slots for each ability, that would cause all kinds of balance related problems. I was thinking about having 4 or 5 spaces for modding each ability. That seems like a reasonable number range. 

 

I plan to add some images to help communicate my idea, but those will have to wait for right now. 

 

Now then, lets see some opinions. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by Plasmaface

[GhostSwordsman]

I like these ideas, as I've also submitted a thread with my opinion on how I think the mod system could be altered for warframes. But it does seem to get a bit complicated, especially when you state that your idea is an evolution of the 10 tile system being replaced with a "layered" tile system.

 

Also, I'd like to point out that your proposition seems dependent on min/maxing for 1 or 2 powers. I'm not shooting down your idea, but not every player min/maxes their warframes and weapons. And for those players the mod system as it is now is sufficient.

Edited September 15, 2014 by GhostSwordsman

[notionphil]

 

What if instead of applying mods to your warframe that affect all of your abilities, you have a separate set of spaces to mod out each ability Individually?

 

--

 

using corrupted mods usually means sacrifing one or more ability to make another stronger.  This change would give players more freedom in terms of modding out ther warframes. This way, you can mod for one ability without completely ruining the others.

 

So, basically the idea is letting people min-max every power individually...so instead of making a choice, they choose "I want all my powers to be the best"?

 

That works against the concept of "build" or "choice" when it comes to powers. There would simply be a correct way to min-max each power.

[Brynslustafir]

So, basically the idea is letting people min-max every power individually...so instead of making a choice, they choose "I want all my powers to be the best"?

 

That works against the concept of "build" or "choice" when it comes to powers. There would simply be a correct way to min-max each power.

Using corrupted mods will still have a negative effect on each ability they are applied to. You still have to choose what you want to mod each ability for, keeping corrupted mod debuffs in mind. 

The element of choice is still present. In fact, you have more choice. 

The correct way is however you want it to be, since you can mod it out without having to worry about your other abilities.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Plasmaface

[Krustable]

one of the largest problems with this is that it further complicates the mod system, detering newer players

[Brynslustafir]

one of the largest problems with this is that it further complicates the mod system, detering newer players

All you need is a quick tutorial. 

[Noble_Cactus]

So, basically the idea is letting people min-max every power individually...so instead of making a choice, they choose "I want all my powers to be the best"?

 

That works against the concept of "build" or "choice" when it comes to powers. There would simply be a correct way to min-max each power.

 

In some situations, yes. The old Blessing would definitely have fallen under this category, as it was unaffected by Power Strength mods (and is still unaffected by Range). The only variables a player would have had to take into account would have been Duration and Efficiency. Chaos is in a similar boat. Everyone would run Range on Chaos no matter what. Then you'd have two slots left over for Duration or Efficiency. Everyone's Chaos would be very similar (not like it already isn't that way).

 

But let's assume we only have four mod slots per ability to work with. For abilities like Sonar, players would have to more carefully choose which mods they gave it. You could give it both Blind Rage and Intensify, but then you might want to use both Fleeting Expertise and Streamline, which would leave no room for Stretch. Or we could ditch Streamline and add Stretch, but then we'd have no way to boost Duration, which is also important for Sonar. You'd run into what Pokemon players call "four moveslot syndrome," which means there are too many choices for mods and not enough spaces. Whether this promotes build variety, I'm not sure. I personally enjoy my BR/Intensify/Streamline/FE/Stretch/Continuity Sonar right now, but maybe having to make sacrifices would open up more doors for build personalization.

 

In the end, I can see why this kind of system is attractive. It would clear up a lot of the clutter in the current mod screen. It might even work if there was a limit on how many mods you could give to an ability. But there are a couple problems that arise out of both of these examples I now realize as I type this up. One is the "not enough mods" problem in the Chaos example. The other is that this kind of change is, as I think you're implying, a little myopic. Not in terms of the OP being narrow minded (heh), but in that the system does not take the larger picture of building a frame into account. The current system balances builds by forcing players to make sacrifices to certain abilities to benefit others. This new system would allow players to min-max each ability individually with little repercussion on the other. Then again, the new system would redefine the larger picture of building a frame as a whole.

 

Between the old way and the OP's system, I'm not sure which I prefer. But I do like a lot of the ideas the OP presents, and I can get behind some of its key points.

 

—

 

If anything, this kind of change would highlight the fact that we don't have enough non-ability, frame-specific mods to spice things up. We are getting universal ability mods like the old Radial Blast soon, unless that changes. How those will be incorporated into the current mod system remains to be seen.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[LukeAura]

Most builds in Warframe usually contain at least 4 ability affecting mods, usually probably 5, but can go up to 7, or even 8. I doubt many are running a pure 9 though. 
I could see this working, only if each ability got a more limited number of spaces. 3-4 probably. Making it impossible to min-max, but also creating unique niches for differently modded versions of the same abilities of the same frame. Too many spaces, and everyone will be easily able to create a small set of optimal loadouts for each ability, as they do now with the whole frame. Too few spaces and the base pool of options becomes too small. 

 

[Brynslustafir]

-snip-

This guy gets it. This is the sort of feedback I'm hoping for. 

[Brynslustafir]

I could see this working, only if each ability got a more limited number of spaces. 3-4 probably.

 

I mentioned in the OP that the limit should be 4 or 5 per ability. 3 feels a bit too strict, if you ask me but 4 seems totally doable.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Plasmaface

[ScorpioEric]

The point of the current system is that you have to sacrifice one thing for another. This system would defeat that purpose. One example is trading ability mods for survival mods, or the other way around. Maybe allow you to select which abilities are affected by what mods, so that you will still be able to max/min abilities but not destroy the reason the mod system exists.

 

Mostly just read the bold part, so sorry if I didn't see you mention something to counter this issue.

Edited September 15, 2014 by ScorpioEric

[Brynslustafir]

Mostly just read the bold part

Well there's your problem. 

 

In the OP I mentioned that you would only have 4-5 spaces for mods on each ability. It's not like people are going to have a full set of ubermaxed abilities, they will still need to carefully select which mods to use on each ability, facing tradeoffs as they always do. The only difference is that the tradeoffs aren't universal anymore, instead they are specific to each ability.  

Edited September 15, 2014 by Plasmaface

[notionphil]

 

But let's assume we only have four mod slots per ability to work with. For abilities like Sonar, players would have to more carefully choose which mods they gave it.

 

Yes, modding Sonar would become tricky...however powers like Sonar are the exception, not the rule.

 

From a search on the Wiki, about 60% of powers aren't affected by at least one trait (range, duration or strength), and for those, it becomes a pretty wrote affair to min-max them with 4 slots.

 

This includes some of the game's most powerful Ults, and other useful abilities like Chaos, Radial Blind, Invisibility, Radial Disarm, Soundquake, Absorb, Reckoning, Hysteria, Blessing, Hall of Mirrors, Iron Skin etc.

 

So in theory, the OP sounds like it's going to result in creative decision making. However in practice, applying 4 mods of your choice to powers that typically only benefit from 2 traits creates far less interesting choices than the current mod system...and much more obvious min-maxing.

 

Instead of choosing between tough alternates ("hmmm Vitality or streamline"), we are choosing between a buff and a bigger buff.

 

"Hmmm...extra 40% range + extra 30% efficiency....or extra 75% range....tough decisions!"

 

Also...OP, I assume you intend to reduce the number of frame mod slots as well?

[Noble_Cactus]

Yes, modding Sonar would become tricky...however powers like Sonar are the exception, not the rule.

 

From a search on the Wiki, about 60% of powers aren't affected by at least one trait (range, duration or strength), and for those, it becomes a pretty wrote affair to min-max them with 4 slots.

 

This includes some of the game's most powerful Ults, and other useful abilities like Chaos, Radial Blind, Invisibility, Radial Disarm, Soundquake, Absorb, Reckoning, Hysteria, Blessing, Hall of Mirrors, Iron Skin etc.

 

So in theory, the OP sounds like it's going to result in creative decision making. However in practice, applying 4 mods of your choice to powers that typically only benefit from 2 traits creates far less interesting choices than the current mod system...and much more obvious min-maxing.

 

Instead of choosing between tough alternates ("hmmm Vitality or streamline"), we are choosing between a buff and a bigger buff.

 

"Hmmm...extra 40% range + extra 30% efficiency....or extra 75% range....tough decisions!"

 

Also...OP, I assume you intend to reduce the number of frame mod slots as well?

 

Hmm. That is true.

 

Though perhaps this kind of change could call for every ability being affected by every stat modifier (i.e., the number of enemies Chaos affects is determined by Power)? That's the simplest solution, but I can see that angering a lot of players as well.

[notionphil]

Hmm. That is true.

 

Though perhaps this kind of change could call for every ability being affected by every stat modifier (i.e., the number of enemies Chaos affects is determined by Power)? That's the simplest solution, but I can see that angering a lot of players as well.

 

Sure, it's the simplest addition but to what end? 

 

Basically this idea is to make frame builds more like weapon builds. Choosing between apples and slightly plumper apples. 30% + 15% here vs 50% there.

 

We all know how fun and creative weapon building feels, right :D

 

This thread would introduce the same concept to frames.

[Brynslustafir]

 

Also...OP, I assume you intend to reduce the number of frame mod slots as well?

I forgot to mention that when i was talking about good ideas that I've seen before.

But yes, the number of slots would be reduced. 

[Brynslustafir]

Sure, it's the simplest addition but to what end? 

 

Basically this idea is to make frame builds more like weapon builds. Choosing between apples and slightly plumper apples. 30% + 15% here vs 50% there.

 

We all know how fun and creative weapon building feels, right :D

 

This thread would introduce the same concept to frames.

Yes, modding Sonar would become tricky...however powers like Sonar are the exception, not the rule.

 

From a search on the Wiki, about 60% of powers aren't affected by at least one trait (range, duration or strength), and for those, it becomes a pretty wrote affair to min-max them with 4 slots.

 

This includes some of the game's most powerful Ults, and other useful abilities like Chaos, Radial Blind, Invisibility, Radial Disarm, Soundquake, Absorb, Reckoning, Hysteria, Blessing, Hall of Mirrors, Iron Skin etc.

 

So in theory, the OP sounds like it's going to result in creative decision making. However in practice, applying 4 mods of your choice to powers that typically only benefit from 2 traits creates far less interesting choices than the current mod system...and much more obvious min-maxing.

 

Instead of choosing between tough alternates ("hmmm Vitality or streamline"), we are choosing between a buff and a bigger buff.

 

"Hmmm...extra 40% range + extra 30% efficiency....or extra 75% range....tough decisions!"

 

Also...OP, I assume you intend to reduce the number of frame mod slots as well?

 

The biggest problem with this is that not all warframe abilities have any moddable stat immunities.

All this means is that some abilities will be easier to mod for than others, but even when you have an ability that's immune to 1 or 2 moddable stats, you still have to choose which of the remaining ones you want to focus on. If an ability is unaffected by power mods, you still have to choose to focus on efficiency, duration, or range. You can only max out 1 of them since you only have 4 slots, and unless the corrupted mod you plan to use is Overextended, you will still be facing a trade off between the remaining stats.

 

That still sounds more complex than weapon modding to me. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by Plasmaface

[notionphil]

The biggest problem with this is that you're acting like every warframe ability is immune to at least one modddable stat. This is simply not the case. 

All this means is that some abilities will be easier to mod for than others, but even when you have an ability that's immune to 1 or 2 moddable stats, you still have to choose which of the remaining ones you want to focus on. If an ability is unaffected by power mods, you still have to choose to focus on efficiency, duration, or range. You can only max out 1 of them since you only have 4 slots, and unless the corrupted mod you plan to use is Overextended, you will still be facing a trade off between the remaining stats.

 

That still sounds more complex than weapon modding to me. 

 

Not all abilities are immune to at least one stat, but about 60% are from my inspection, including some of the most useful abilities in the game (listed in my first post in this thread).

 

When modding weapons, most people try to max damage output while saving a little room for utility. I don't see much of a difference between this and that. You have 2 potential attributes to focus on with most powers, and you decide to max one and leave the other one with a smaller, but still positive buff.

 

This is like making Redirection give 440% shields + 220% health and Vitality give +440% health and +220% shields. It's a dumbed down version of what's currently in the game. Right now, you choose one, let the other suffer, or give up even more and choose both; a harder and more interesting choice with more potential outcomes.

 

Currently, with Frame modding you're juggling survivability, powers, melee mods and still trying to squeeze in some power min-max, without gimping your other powers. There's really a ton of tough choices to make, and I don't see the benefit of watering down those interesting choices into selecting which buff to concentrate on.

 

While your suggestion is more complex than weapon modding, I don't see the benefit of your thread besides that it will be easier to get your desired result and slap more power on your frame.

[Brynslustafir]

I don't see the benefit of your thread besides that it will be easier to get your desired result and slap more power on your frame.

That's because that is my intention. The goal is to be able to have all of my abilities be useful. Not godlike, but useful. 

Edited September 16, 2014 by Plasmaface

[ScorpioEric]

Well there's your problem. 

 

In the OP I mentioned that you would only have 4-5 spaces for mods on each ability.

I meant total frame mod slots, but you answered that replying to notionphil.

 

Edit: I assumed that the extra slots would be just added on to the normal 10.

Edited September 17, 2014 by ScorpioEric

[DSpite]

That's because that is my intention. The goal is to be able to have all of my abilities be useful. Not godlike, but useful. 

 

You are looking at this from the point of view of "currently many abilities are meh, and this fixes it."

 

De has to "fix" this so that abilities are useful WITHOUT having to introduce an entire system to do it via mods. The game can be fine as is as long as the overall mechanics are looked at.

[Brynslustafir]

You are looking at this from the point of view of "currently many abilities are meh, and this fixes it."

 

De has to "fix" this so that abilities are useful WITHOUT having to introduce an entire system to do it via mods. The game can be fine as is as long as the overall mechanics are looked at.

I know, but getting ability fixes tends to take a long time. So long, in fact that it might even be faster to revamp the entire modding system.