More-Game, Less Endgame- Thank You Scott!

[Alphafox]

Wow that highlight a big problem in our community that I never noticed till now..

The OP have no idea of what Endgame is, and many other people don't too!

People need to stop using a term they don't even know the meaning of, seriously it's quite sickening.

[ElHefe]

(edited) ...

They have not introduced anything in regards to the focus system yet, so stop putting the cart before the horse

 

You throw big words around without understanding the basic definition of one with two syllables. Endgame is not story, because a story is something that you can finish.

Point taken on the Focus system but from what has been said of it in the Devstreams it is coming and will probably be another fluid concept that changes over time

 

Regarding your second point, I have NO QUALMS admitting that I am redefining what "endgame" means ...

Why must we be slaves to a convention that has existed for what 15 years tops?

Look, endgame was a term taken from chess which is a game several thousand years old and even with that has a rather fuzzy definition as to when middle game is over and the end game begins based upon number of pieces left on the board and the fewer tactical means of play

 

What I saw Steve working with in Devstream was a reformulation of what has been customarily thought of as an end game

My point is steered in that same way ... it's time to think outside the box

Make a different kind of game

Stop copying what has been done before

 

Lastly, I would dispute that story is limited - to the contrary, side stories are infinite

Just look at the Star Wars franchise ... big selling novel after big selling novel, endless graphic novels, a multitude of animated series

No end in sight when one builds an imaginary universe around stories rather than focusing on solving paltry problems of how to use a maxed out character

 

So give me another perfect pitch like the one you just threw at me ... let's watch it fly over the fence again

[Dolomighty]

This.

 

I'm honestly surprised by the amount of people that have absolutely no idea what end game is.

 

I'm not surprised in the least, though I'll respectfully withhold my reasons why. In any case, a proper endgame is absolutely VITAL to the longevity of this game. Right now we have a structure that completely discourages veteran players from sticking around.

[SoulEchelon]

In total agreement with the OP. It's funny that so many people rant about wanting Endgame when Endgame in most games is just more grinding or pvp.

 

No, I'd rather get more quests. More new mechanics. More ways of playing this awesome game, more weapons and equipment to choose from, more paths to go through.

 

This is the one moment where being "bloated" is a good thing. More content in the middle, less focus on the end.

[vaugahn]

Im not happy what he said.Its away from give the Veterans some challenge to everyone can play it all.

DE ignore the fact that there are alot people with all stuff,all Mods,all maxed,all weapons ,formaed to hell and they want some challenge with their Warframes.What helps the new Focus system when you still have the same challenge but then you are even stronger?At some point only challenge,other people can hold people in games but when you played trillion times the less challenge missions thats already in the game its getting boring.

My opinion thats all.

 

Here's my problem with extending scaling for veteran players. 

 

What then? So, say they put in a set of super-hard levels and an overlevel scaling system. Eventually, you will reach the end of that. Everyone will find the best build for those veteran levels, and then they'll come to the forums and say that there's no content for super-endgame players. It will literally be the exact same situation we have now. And then, they'll add even harder levels, and the cycle repeats to infinity. That is not a positive outcome. 

 

I'd much rather they spread out than up.

[ndantony]

...the game still needs a lot more development of contents, lore and depth before DE can determine what sort of endgames make sense for WF and work well for the players.

[Shehriazad]

You can make things challenging for veterans without excluding new players.


Like I said in a post before.....DE has experimented on this on MULTIPLE occasions. Gate Crash and Tactical Alerts both display this.... 

Tactical alerts limit your gear score and Gate Crash scaled YOU down instead of scaling enemies up.

The implementation is important of course....but if it's done right....together with the new enemy types that come with a lot of special abilities to make you sweat....

You can have challenging content that everyone can enjoy almost equally.


More content and challenge is what most veterans want. More content is also what newbies like...but you have to be careful to not exclude them...so DE is taking the approach of toning you the F*** down.

If it's done right then everyone can be happy.


P.s. : Why not exclude the newbies? Easy. If you go down the road of WoW and co and add the ultimate bosses that drop the ultimate gear...then the whole game is pretty much stuck on this...and that's not necessarily a good thing...far from it.  

Right now what DE needs to do is get rid of the negative difficulty scaling and make the game harder for veterans.... making it harder for veterans is no big deal...but if you make content exclusive to veterans only then that brings a lot of problems that all the classic mmorpgs do face.

Just flatten out the curve instead. Allow easier entry into the game...but instead of classical endgame...add content that is challenging for everyone. Which means that there won't be bullet sponge gallores but player scaling and gear limits (plus new enemies that force you to rethink and act smarter)that force you to actually use interesting builds and can really force some diversity....and thus...just maybe..fun *gasp* 

Edited October 4, 2014 by Shehriazad

[LurkenLurker]

tbh i just makes me say when Gigantic and battleborn drop warframe will be a thing of the pass until i get bored again and dust it off again after a couple of updates and New frames 

[Jinkaza]

I think what most people mean by endgame is actually something different than what it would actually mean.

There are 2 things that are prevalent here:

Harder/More Challenging content - A lot of people want challenging stuff to do...but does that mean it's endgame? Nah...it's just "harder"...but I feel like that is what a lot of people mean by it.

A sense of real progression - Again...this is not real endgame but it is easy to pack that in there. (focus, proxy etc would all suddenly fit as "endgame")

A real classical endgame would be hard bosses that you need X gear to even be able to kill them... to then get the absolute ultimate gear in a sense of RPG style gaming. Or even PvP endgame where you farm for PvP gear.

Both those things don't actually fit WF.

I think it is wrong to yell out endgame endgame...even though I already did it myself. What we really need IS "more game". And this "more game" needs to be engaging and challenge us...but that doesnt mean that it should not be just as accessible for new players...how "classic" endgame is restricted in standard mmorpg type games.

DE already experimented quite a bit with this as well. Gate Crash and Tactical alerts both do this. They did not leave out newbies while actually making stuff harder for veterans.

And if this is the direction that DE is going...then at some point Warframe will transition from a good game to a great game. A game where gear matters less and skill is actually prevalent.

A game where new players can engage the same harder content that veterans do...and both feel "useful" together.

That is my dream for WF...and for now DE has yet to shatter my trust that they can do this. Their pace is too slow for my personal taste...but they are approaching it rather fast if compared to other games.

The only thing that WF suffers from greatly right now is the negative difficulty curve...the game starts out hard and gets easier and easier as you go on. But idealy the game should be just as challenging to a veteran as it should be to a new guy...and in a perfect scenario the new guy and the veteran get to do this together....no matter the gear scores or prime pieces.

Im not saying this game needs to become Dark Souls 1 or anything...but flattening the curve a bit while maintaining an at least mildly challenging and engaging level for everyone is what we should demand....not some flashy veteran only bosses that drop the ultimate gear. 

Aye.

[Jinkaza]

I believe they are simply worried that DE may totally abandon the game once they come up with solid enough endgame to keep continued interest in the ogame for a few years , but i could be wrong

I am not so worried about abandonment as I am just interested in seeing more of this universe, and what a development team and thier community can make of an enterprise.

[CY13ERPUNK]

-10 to the people that think all things started with WoW.

 

Endgame was around in Meridian 59 in 1996 ... 1 year before Ultima showed up and 8 years before WoW showed up.

 

Endgame is what happens when you have your character maxed out ... it's what you do after. The "replayability" of things if you will.

 

No "endgame" no player retention, simple. Stop giving max geared/level players something to do and they go find something else. Welcome to the world of competitive business where every game is wanting to take your player base. Don;t give players what they need and they find it elsewhere.

 

clearly u didn't read/understand/comprehend my post, i said 'post-WoW'

 

i am not oblivious that there were games prior to it, i was actually an early supporter of UO and it's groundbreaking accomplishments

 

but much of the lingo and terminology that is in common mis-use today gained popularity with WoW, even if some of it started in EQ or AC for instance

[Somedude1000]

I am not so worried about abandonment as I am just interested in seeing more of this universe, and what a development team and thier community can make of an enterprise.

 

Fair enoough. Perhaps a factor we didn't consider before is thaat endgame is not really anything that is fixed in definition, but more like an idea that can evolve into many possibilities later on

[Ailissa]

clearly u didn't read/understand/comprehend my post, i said 'post-WoW'

 

i am not oblivious that there were games prior to it, i was actually an early supporter of UO and it's groundbreaking accomplishments

 

but much of the lingo and terminology that is in common mis-use today gained popularity with WoW, even if some of it started in EQ or AC for instance

 

Then I apologise.

 

It does grate a little bit when I see people claim something started in WoW.

 

Take toon for instance. It's hilariously sad the amount of people think that started with WoW when there was a game named Toon that came out in 1984 that gave rise to having toon as an avatar. Plus it was used in MUD's and games before WoW.

 

WoW gets too much credit for things it shouldn't get credit for. 

 

I just took that out on you when I misunderstood what you meant. I am sorry.

[Alphafox]

For the love of God.

Please understand. Endgame isn't something definitive that is set in stone to never be moved again. Endgame will always add new content so it's a win for everyone.

-Exploration

-Survival(We already have that but meeh it take way too much time before it even get challenging)

-Defense(Same problem as above)

-Raiding

-Achievements

-Acquiring the best equips

-Challenging bosses 

-Completing challenging missions

-Pvp(No what we actually have there, I refuse to recognize that as even close to decent PVP)

-Dungeons

 

Endgame is what keep the players. If you have no Endgame how do you expect to keep your players? Your regular players are the one that will buy platinum regularly,they are the life flow of your game,the blood of your game and if you have no way to keep them sadly your game won't last long.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Alphafox

[JoeXyo]

Then I apologise.

 

It does grate a little bit when I see people claim something started in WoW.

 

Take toon for instance. It's hilariously sad the amount of people think that started with WoW when there was a game named Toon that came out in 1984 that gave rise to having toon as an avatar. Plus it was used in MUD's and games before WoW.

 

WoW gets too much credit for things it shouldn't get credit for. 

 

I just took that out on you when I misunderstood what you meant. I am sorry.

I don't think anyone has said anything about wow started anything.

Only thing where it was used as an Example. 

[JoeXyo]

For the love of God.

Please understand. Endgame isn't something definitive that is set in stone to never be moved again. Endgame will always add new content so it's a win for everyone.

-Exploration

-Survival(We already have that but meeh it take way too much time before it even get challenging)

-Defense(Same problem as above)

-Raiding

-Achievements

-Acquiring the best equips

-Challenging bosses 

-Completing challenging missions

-Pvp(No what we actually have there, I refuse to recognize that as even close to decent PVP)

-Dungeons

 

Endgame is what keep the players. If you have no Endgame how do you expect to keep your players? Your regular players are the one that will buy platinum regularly,they are the life flow of your game,the blood of your game and if you have no way to keep them sadly your game won't last long.

You don't need end-game. Yet you guys seem's to ignore the fact that this is something they have to make in order to pleasure the small % of the players who do end-game....

DE's has said that they want to have it simple and easy in order to feed us with new and exciting materials monthly based if i remember correctly.

So you would rather have them spending month's on contents involving dungeons and raid environment's aswell new prime gear for that small % of Elite players ?

When they can do it in another way that can involve Everyone ?

If you add to much gear and stats as well pvp into that picture they will end up doing nothing but to balance and tweaking making that progress go slower. 

This was pointed out at Blizzard that having that require tons of time, Which is what DE is trying to avoid.

Can you see now why we are trying to come up with other ideas here that may help DE in taking a more easier path so that everyone can be happy ?

 

Eventually it will go back to how war frames function and how they will applying the up coming materials.

Edited October 5, 2014 by R3pin3

[Alphafox]

You don't need end-game. Yet you guys seem's to ignore the fact that this is something they have to make in order to pleasure the small % of the players who do end-game....

DE's has said that they want to have it simple and easy in order to feed us with new and exciting materials monthly based if i remember right.

So you would rather have them spending month's on contents involving dungeons and raid environment's aswell new prime gear for that small % of ALL gamers ? 

When they can do it in another way that can involve EVERYONE....

If you add to much gear and stats as well pvp into that picture they will end up doing nothing but to balance and tweaking making that progress go slower. 

This was pointed out at Blizzard that having that require tons of time, Which is what DE is trying to avoid.

Can you see now why we are trying to come up with other ideas here that may help DE in taking a more easier path so that everyone can be happy ?

What? If you are actually playing the game you will get there no matter what. How is it a small amount of players. You know what our endgame is right now? Getting to mastery rank 8. That's it. Nothing more than that. Like i said endgame add other game types too. So what is the problem?

Many things I suggested wouldn't even need a player to have the best equips.

[X]Raiding can be for anyone if DE wants to.

[X] Achievements are for everyone and are a long term goal. Oh and guess what, actual goals is something that we need too.

[X]Pvp is balanced should be balanced differently form PvE anyways, so I don't see the problem.

[X]Challenging bosses can be for any level too.

[X]Challenging missions can be for anyone too.

Endgame will always involve every players, because sooner or later you have to get there anyways.

Just so you know the easy way is not always the best.

[JoeXyo]

What? If you are actually playing the game you will get there no matter what. How is it a small amount of players. You know what our endgame is right now? Getting to mastery rank 8. That's it. Nothing more than that. Like i said endgame add other game types too. So what is the problem?

Many things I suggested wouldn't even need a player to have the best equips.

[X]Raiding can be for anyone if DE wants to.

[X] Achievements are for everyone and are a long term goal. Oh and guess what, actual goals is something that we need too.

[X]Pvp is balanced should be balanced differently form PvE anyways, so I don't see the problem.

[X]Challenging bosses can be for any level too.

[X]Challenging missions can be for anyone too.

Endgame will always involve every players, because sooner or later you have to get there anyways.

Just so you know the easy way is not always the best.

With other words, Farm based. Because that's what it is. 

Problem is mister is that people are getting an false impression of this game, making em spend countless of hours farming for the brick wall.

We are talking about experience and facts shown in other games that has done the same. 

And WoW was pointed out as an Example on that. All i am saying is you don't need end-game to have players. You need new and exciting things to do that catch players interest's.

There will always be a higher number of casual players than elitist. So just cut the crap..

Edited October 5, 2014 by R3pin3

[Ailissa]

I don't think anyone has said anything about wow started anything.

Only thing where it was used as an Example. 

 

Thus why I apologised for misunderstanding him.

[JoeXyo]

Thus why I apologised for misunderstanding him.

Right right ;)

...the game still needs a lot more development of contents, lore and depth before DE can determine what sort of endgames make sense for WF and work well for the players.

Exactly...

[RoboDoge]

Right right ;)

Exactly...

First try was Dark Sectors. Ended as crap. Had a lot of potential ( Badlands, nobody mentions that anymore ), poorly developed and implemented.

 

 

Lets see what DE will offer next.

[Alphafox]

With other words, Farm based. Because that's what it is. 

Problem is mister is that people are getting an false impression of this game, making em spend countless of hours farming for the brick wall.

We are talking about experience and facts shown in other games that has done the same. 

And WoW was pointed out as an Example on that. All i am saying is you don't need end-game to have players. You need new and exciting things to do that catch players interest's.

There will always be a higher number of casual players than elitist. So just cut the crap..

Elitist? What?... How any of the things i proposed are for the ''elite''? I clearly said that all those things could be implemented on different level for player that have more difficulties with the game(I feel like you are one of them)

The game is probably the purest definition of grinding at this point, All of the things I proposed try to pull us away from that.

You don't have to be a hardcore player to reach all of the things above, everyone can access it a a certain point. So i don't see how this is considered as elitist(You clearly miss used  that word in the current situation but whatever.)

 

And I don't give a crap about WoW so i don't even see why you are mentioning it.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Alphafox

[JoeXyo]

Elitist? What?... How any of the things i proposed are for the ''elite''? I clearly said that all those things could be implemented on different level for player that have more difficulties with the game(I feel like you are one of them)

The game is probably the purest definition of grinding at this point, All of the things I proposed try to pull us away from that.

You don't have to be a hardcore player to reach all of the things above, everyone can access it a a certain point. So i don't see how this is considered as elitist(You clearly miss used  that word in the current situation but whatever.)

 

And I don't give a crap about WoW so i don't even see why you are mentioning it.

There is certain aspects of things that just wont go very well over each other, saying that you want different level makes me think you've got very little gaming experience. To that i'm gonna stop investing more time on your childish behavior. 

Have a good day sir.

[ndantony]

For the love of God.

Please understand. Endgame isn't something definitive that is set in stone to never be moved again. Endgame will always add new content so it's a win for everyone.

-Exploration

-Survival(We already have that but meeh it take way too much time before it even get challenging)

-Defense(Same problem as above)

-Raiding

-Achievements

-Acquiring the best equips

-Challenging bosses 

-Completing challenging missions

-Pvp(No what we actually have there, I refuse to recognize that as even close to decent PVP)

-Dungeons

 

Endgame is what keep the players. If you have no Endgame how do you expect to keep your players? Your regular players are the one that will buy platinum regularly,they are the life flow of your game,the blood of your game and if you have no way to keep them sadly your game won't last long.

I agree with you - endgames not needing to be definitive and can be subject to further changes... but I don't think WF is even there yet to make sense (including lore-wise) these endgame contents. Hopefully, by update 15, Arching content can adapt/make sense one or few of these contents. If looking at a whole, content, depth and lore-wise, WF seems to be so young; true two years already and still in beta (uh-oh, another can of worms).

 

If DE has $500 million fund I would definitely demand these overnight. But as WF is a f2p with a very good model as that, I'm willing to step back, regularly invest in prime access and give DE times to work it out step by step with the community (until it feel just "right", or where DE and community can come together and say, ah-ha, this is it). 

[Alphafox]

There is certain aspects of things that just wont go very well over each other, saying that you want different level makes me think you've got very little gaming experience. To that i'm gonna stop investing more time on your childish behavior. 

Have a good day sir.

I didn't saw you making any suggestion or anything that look like it. You are the one that complained that add some of those aspect would cut off many players that's why i suggest that they are on many levels so anyone could access them, now you complain about it? I can feel that logic is not something that you use very often. 

I'm very experienced in game(if that's a thing) Thanks you. I don't see how suggesting ideas is childish or anything like it,but whatever you have the right to be wrong mate.