Slot Competition Is An Issue, And It Will Only Get Worse.

[Azawarau]

It actually kills most endgame builds because most of the best builds only maximized one ability  For mulitiplayer, very few frames could contribute as much to the team with more than one power, unless the mods for maximizing both were the same (used the same corrupted mods without significant penalty).  Some exceptions exist, such as a tanking mirage, which is best with abilities 1 and 3 maximized for duration and strength. 

 

For example, there is absolutely no point to giving me back the nekros abilities besides desecrate, because I still only maximize it for range and efficiency, which kills all the other abilities (nekros is 4 LOOT + LIFE SUPPORT).  They effectively removed one warframe slot from every frame for me, and nerfed the abilities until level 30.

 

They also nerfed negative nova, and positive nova for that matter.  Mol. Prime or GTFO.

 

Then, they gave me 46 forma back that I have no use for.

If by end game you mean lvl 100+ where the only thing you can do is CC spam then its not an issue

 

Stop minmaxing and realize youve become more open to other options and again you shouldnt be worried about enemies that are very high lvl

 

Do you min/max everything for CC? Thats all im getting from you

[SquirmyBurrito]

If by end game you mean lvl 100+ where the only thing you can do is CC spam then its not an issue

 

Stop minmaxing and realize youve become more open to other options and again you shouldnt be worried about enemies that are very high lvl

 

Do you min/max everything for CC? Thats all im getting from you

 

Telling people to stop minmax'ing doesn't solve the problem.

[MichaelSD]

If by end game you mean lvl 100+ where the only thing you can do is CC spam then its not an issue

 

Stop minmaxing and realize youve become more open to other options and again you shouldnt be worried about enemies that are very high lvl

 

Do you min/max everything for CC? Thats all im getting from you

 

It is not about min-maxing. At least half of your abilities are useless anyway if you max out the other one or two. Some warframes do not have any useful ability just one (Excalibur has only RB beyond mid level).

It is not min-maxing, it is the abilites that vary widely in usefulness.

[Thaumatos]

If by end game you mean lvl 100+ where the only thing you can do is CC spam then its not an issue

 

Stop minmaxing and realize youve become more open to other options and again you shouldnt be worried about enemies that are very high lvl

 

Do you min/max everything for CC? Thats all im getting from you

Min-maxing assumes you're foregoing something important to maximize something else.

 

You don't forego important mods in Warframe, you just do without less useful ones.

 

For instance, Fire Rate vs. Damage.  If you could either double your damage or double your fire rate, which would you choose?  In any game with ammunition, you'd choose to double your damage.  Given that they are both intended to increase DPS, doubling your fire rate comes at the cost of doubling your ammo consumption rate, increasing the time affect of reloading, and possibly reducing your accuracy due to recoil.  Straight-up doubling your damage will always be more useful for the same purpose.

 

When you have such vast choices over an extremely limited amount of space (8 slots), it's easy to see that certain mods have no real purpose.

 

The true limiting factor should be your capacity alone.  You should be able to equip whatever mods you want.

[Azawarau]

Telling people to stop minmax'ing doesn't solve the problem.

Its not just that

 

Its less about min maxing and more about entitlement in general and trying to squeeze DE for anything

 

You should know that

[SquirmyBurrito]

Its not just that

 

Its less about min maxing and more about entitlement in general and trying to squeeze DE for anything

 

You should know that

 

I don't see anything wrong with players expecting to be able to min-max when the game makes min-maxing possible and practically encourages it with corrupted mods.

[Azawarau]

It is not about min-maxing. At least half of your abilities are useless anyway if you max out the other one or two. Some warframes do not have any useful ability just one (Excalibur has only RB beyond mid level).

It is not min-maxing, it is the abilites that vary widely in usefulness.

Most frames have multiple abilities that scale well into end game and only fall against a specific faction

 (Mag,Frost,Ember VS grineer, Saryn against certain corpus and corrupted units)

 

You could build about any frame to scale into lvl 50 enemies without needing to heavily rely on one skill

 

If you do then thats your thing but if you pretend like other abilities dont matter then theres a problem

 

Min-maxing assumes you're foregoing something important to maximize something else.

 

You don't forego important mods in Warframe, you just do without less useful ones.

 

For instance, Fire Rate vs. Damage.  If you could either double your damage or double your fire rate, which would you choose?  In any game with ammunition, you'd choose to double your damage.  Given that they are both intended to increase DPS, doubling your fire rate comes at the cost of doubling your ammo consumption rate, increasing the time affect of reloading, and possibly reducing your accuracy due to recoil.  Straight-up doubling your damage will always be more useful for the same purpose.

 

When you have such vast choices over an extremely limited amount of space (8 slots), it's easy to see that certain mods have no real purpose.

 

The true limiting factor should be your capacity alone.  You should be able to equip whatever mods you want.

So tell me how Desecrate is more useful than SOTD aside from survival

 

Or how blade storm and radial disarm beat invisibility?

 

I don't see anything wrong with players expecting to be able to min-max when the game makes min-maxing possible and practically encourages it with corrupted mods.

And thats fine

 

But now they have to min max a new way

[Octrion]

'some mods are just not competitive enough' - fully agreed

These are mods, in my opinion, I would never consider using, and never understand why people would waste a mod slot on them.

 

Movement Mods:

Acrobat

Maglev

 

No one exactly runs around on walls full time so I don't see why you would use Acrobat. I did see someone say earlier about using Maglev to move quicker but whether you would use it rather than just having Rush equipped I don't know.

 

Knockdown Mods:

Handspring

Shock Absorbers

Sure Footed

 

Is knockdown this much of an issue for people? Do people just stand in front of heavy gunners or bombards? The amount of time I spend on my Tenno butt is not enough to warrant wasting a mod slot, having three whole mods on it seems overkill.

 

Resistance Mods:
Antitoxin
Diamond Skin

Flame Repellent

Insulation

Warm Coat

 

All situational really, especially Warm Coat, I guess you could have a mod slot free for a resistance mod, but they why don't they just introduce a 'resistance' mod that just gives x% resistance to elemental damage of all types?

 

Bleed Out Mods:

Provoked

Undying Will

 

In a team situation, if you are someone who is going to be down a lot (ranking up a new frame, or you suck), I would understand using this, to give yourself a little more time to be saved, but for solo they are useless, there isn't exactly a second wind mechanic in Warframe that would mean you benefit from bleeding out for longer.

 

Other:

Intruder

 

I don't see why this would be needed, the hacking isn't hard and if you really did struggle ciphers are not that expensive.

 

I would love to see mods that changed things up to make you play in different ways, or more interesting mechanics like Shield Flux or Retribution. While obviously my opinion on this, there are 13 mods there out of the 46 normal warframe mods, that I would never take a second glance at, and just use for fusion.

 

[MichaelSD]

Most frames have multiple abilities that scale well into end game and only fall against a specific faction

 (Mag,Frost,Ember VS grineer, Saryn against certain corpus and corrupted units)

 

You could build about any frame to scale into lvl 50 enemies without needing to heavily rely on one skill

 

 

At lvl 50 Frost can use avalance and snow globe the rest is useless. Excalibur has only Radial Blind, etc. No, at level 50 your choices are limited to utility powers.

As a wrote above, you can not have all skills with acceptable capability as the mods work against each other. So you have to choose on which skill you rely.

[SquirmyBurrito]

snip

 

Maglev and rush can be equipped together.

 

Handspring's quick recovery ends up saving you from a lot of damage. And grineer heavies aren't the only enemies that can knock you over. Those fire eximus (the ones with the sargas ruk-like wall of fire), Ruk, Scorpions, Ancients, shockwave moas, antimoas, shield lancers, those eximus enemies that basically just get the grineer heavy ground slam, and assorted enemy blast procs all have the capability of knocking you down. Being able to get back up almost immediately saves you from unnecessary damage and in some cases (toxic and disrupter ancients) can be the one thing that saves you from going down.

 

Some decent arguments could be made for Provoked combined with undying will when you have an organized team as a 110% damage increase is pretty nice (it also affects ability damage so you could launch an antimatter drop, go down, and it would be dealing 110% extra damage).

[TwiceDead]

I thought this was a known issue that DE has deliberately chosen to ignore for the last six months, as I am pretty sure it has been discussed numerous times already.

Regardless, Squirmy is right. 

[Azawarau]

At lvl 50 Frost can use avalance and snow globe the rest is useless. Excalibur has only Radial Blind, etc. No, at level 50 your choices are limited to utility powers.

As a wrote above, you can not have all skills with acceptable capability as the mods work against each other. So you have to choose on which skill you rely.

You doubt the utility of frost wave? Ok im not even gonna argue that one with you.

 

Excali has 2 mobility powers. One deals mediocre daage and is outdone by simple coptering and the other is essentially a panic button

 

The issue here is excalis powers

 

On the other hand a frames like Saryn,Nova, and loki who are min maxed for their 4s are more free now to use other powers as well with their builds

[MichaelSD]

You doubt the utility of frost wave? Ok im not even gonna argue that one with you.

 

Excali has 2 mobility powers. One deals mediocre daage and is outdone by simple coptering and the other is essentially a panic button

 

The issue here is excalis powers

 

On the other hand a frames like Saryn,Nova, and loki who are min maxed for their 4s are more free now to use other powers as well with their builds

 

And lvl 50 it is limited, but even if not the mods for frost wave and globe are opposing each other.

 

Except if you use Radial Bland you most probably heavily nerf Super Jump and gone is your panic button and on high levels a High Jump won't save your as.

 

Again on most frames, if you max one powers the other are nerfed or at least minimally improved, which is of not much help.

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP

[Azawarau]

And lvl 50 it is limited, but even if not the mods for frost wave and globe are opposing each other.

 

Except if you use Radial Bland you most probably heavily nerf Super Jump and gone is your panic button and on high levels a High Jump won't save your as.

 

Again on most frames, if you max one powers the other are nerfed or at least minimally improved, which is of not much help.

Assuming you overextend radial when its totally not needed

 

Stretch gives you enough range to cover most maps and if not it covers enemies close enough to be a danger to you and then some

 

Which lets you keep super jump and radial javelin useful

 

You dont need to min max for blind at all

 

The problem here is that you choose to max a power and call the rest useless when youre making them useless by maxing for one when you really dont need to

[MichaelSD]

Of course I overextend, because this is the only power which can help my team! That is the whole point of it!

 

 

But to quote from another thread:

Because most of the time you can not jump high.

Because if I can jump high enough the mods that enable me nerf the Radial Stun.

Because jumping takes long and you can not help your team that time.

Because while I land I use up 2 seconds of the stun.

Because even with Super Jump, boxes pillars, etc. do block the stun.

Because you never know how many enemies you effected, who may reappear from doorways, etc, making most of RBs effect naught.

 

Reason enough?

 

Please, the Excalibur was not a great team player at high level in his old version, but now it simply not worth it to use.

Edited October 30, 2014 by MichaelSD

[Azawarau]

Of course I overextend, because this is the only power which can help my team! That is the whole point of it!

 

 

But to quote from another thread:

Because most of the time you can not jump high.

Because if I can jump high enough the mods that enable me nerf the Radial Stun.

Because jumping takes long and you can not help your team that time.

Because while I land I use up 2 seconds of the stun.

Because even with Super Jump, boxes pillars, etc. do block the stun.

Because you never know how many enemies you effected, who may reappear from doorways, etc, making most of RBs effect naught.

 

Reason enough?

 

Please, the Excalibur was not a great team player at high level in his old version, but now it simply not worth it to use.

Most areas you can jump high enough to make use of the invisibility by casting in air or coming down with melee

 

Most areas als have doors and obstacles that stop that overextended from being useful

 

If you jump to save your own life youre helping your team by not being dead. a downed tenno takes 2 players out of the fight unless you let them die

 

Because you can cast mid air while invisible for more stun or crash down with melee or explosions

 

Super jumps stun range is so small that boxes and pillars will hardly if ever be an issue

 

Again your RB is mostly wasted with overextended killing your 3 other powers so if you choose to overextend it then you choose to devalue your other powers

[Thaumatos]

So tell me how Desecrate is more useful than SOTD aside from survival

 

Or how blade storm and radial disarm beat invisibility?

 

 

SOTD > Desecrate

Invis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any other capability

 

What exactly is your argument?  Skills aren't even mods anymore.  Did you comprehend what my post was or did you just read what you wanted to see?  Differences in frame usefulness are completely separate from mods.  And now skills are too.

 

When they were mod cards, people actively chose not to equip certain skills specifically because they were useless in comparison to certain mods.

 

Frankly, you've only got to go back a few weeks and read about players' outrage at losing the 2 mod slots that they didn't put skills in to realize that people had more useful mods than their skills.

 

You're making my point.

 

This isn't about min-maxing, this is about full-blown uselessness by comparison.

[Azawarau]

SOTD > Desecrate

Invis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any other capability

 

What exactly is your argument?  Skills aren't even mods anymore.  Did you comprehend what my post was or did you just read what you wanted to see?  Differences in frame usefulness are completely separate from mods.  And now skills are too.

 

When they were mod cards, people actively chose not to equip certain skills specifically because they were useless in comparison to certain mods.

 

Frankly, you've only got to go back a few weeks and read about players' outrage at losing the 2 mod slots that they didn't put skills in to realize that people had more useful mods than their skills.

 

You're making my point.

 

This isn't about min-maxing, this is about full-blown uselessness by comparison.

Ive said once or twice in this thread and at least once in another that it isnt just about  min maxing so whatever youre saying doesnt mean anything

 

Thats just one issue among many

 

My argument is people build frames to min max a certain power and kill the rest then call them bad or entirely useless

 

Alot of the driving reason behind the hate for the new change for many forumers

 

And saying skills arent mod is flat stupid. Many frames/powers arent too useful without mods. Theyre the backbone of every power used

 

 Ever use an unmodded WoF? Not too helpful is it?

 

People chose powers they could abuse and maxed those alone

 

Excalibur has a huge guilty card on RB and you know it

 

Now theyll have to stoip abusing as much or try new things and new ways to minmax