So There's A Big Guy In Big Armour, And He's Pathetic Here And Godly There.

[Tyreuzs]

Actually a really great idea..! i really hope that someone from the DE Staff will notice this thread and think about it :)

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I want this to happen so much. I feel that a lot of people get bored of the game because they feel that they've seen every enemy before they reach Neptune (because they have). Meaningful progression would be a huge boost to the game.

[Zanukacola]

I think the problem OP described is really tied to the perceived lack of endgame content. I agree with that assessment, that unit type should become the primary determinant of difficulty. The problem with that, though, is that in order to maintain the game's current 'length' (the trek from level 1 on mercury to 60 minute void survivals, or whatever your definition of high level is), a whole new set of enemies would need to be developed. Simply redistributing the existing types of enemies for each faction would be insufficient.

 

Giving grineer and corpus randomized access to the player pool of weapons would work well, and wouldn't require much in the way of new assets. For infested, it would be nice if the basic units picked up new special abilities as they leveled; that way, there'd be marked differences in how you fight them at low and high levels. Those could come from the player pool of abilities too, kinda like commanders using switch teleport.

 

The thing is, expanding on unit types and behaviors can only go so far, because no matter how differentiated enemies are, the rank and file foes are gonna be dudes with guns who shoot at you (or melee fighters who charge you). They can't all have radial stomps or poison clouds that alter the way you engage them. So no matter how different enemies look at high levels, they're going to be more or less the same to fight.

Edited November 6, 2014 by qujokun

[DSpite]

Did I kill my own thread; or is it so agreeable that people don't post? 

 

I'm sorry, but I wrote this a while ago, what exactly is the diff between what you ask and what I ask?

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/339081-more-difference-between-same-units-at-different-levels/

[RossRam]

I am RossRam, and I approve this topic.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I wrote this a while ago, what exactly is the diff between what you ask and what I ask?

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/339081-more-difference-between-same-units-at-different-levels/

 

He asked it earlier.

Edited November 6, 2014 by RossRam

[ThePresident777]

Progress is not a lasting feeling.  It's temporary by nature.  It is comparative by nature.  You feel progress only for a short time after having progressed.  To maintain the feeling of progress you have to keep on progressing.  Once you stop progressing, a feeling of stability sets in, either a positive or negative one, according to each individual.

 

The whole point of a level system is for somethings to be more and somethings to be less.    Level systems do not exist and cannot exist for the sake of a permanent feeling of progress because that is not how the feeling of progress works.  All a level system can do is give you the changing relative reference necessary to base a feeling of progress on, and objective options.  You eventually get to a level such that the lancer is easy even if he used to be impossible.  That is the nature of level systems.

 

And if you assign qualities to levels then people start to wonder why the lancer game play is higher level than the butcher game play.  Why are all the melee units easy and the gun units harder?   Then if you make another tier of enemies that are even harder but are melee then people wonder what is the difference between low level melee enemies and high level melee enemies.  And why can't I do this and that at low level?  Why is that game play stuck behind a boring level grind wall?  Etc.  It's all assigned arbitrarily and players will see that eventually.  Qualities and quantities are not the same and there are an infinite way to combine them.

 

A level system is an objective means to play different play styles, such as tank or glass cannon, and to choose your mix between them.    You have the option to choose your offense and defense in both magnitude and ratio for both yourself and the enemy via the Tenno's loadout and via externalities such as enemy level, faction, etc.  You can have Tank vs. Tank.  Glass Cannon vs. Glass Canon.  Or, you can have a mix of glass cannon and tank, or other qualities, and at different magnitudes.

 

These choices constitute the pace of the game because it takes time to move and it takes time to destroy targets.  The amount of time it takes to accomplish a task is strictly an arbitrary manner of personal preference.  It does not separate good from bad game design.  A game design can be good or bad regardless of the pace or style of game play.  It is not absolute.

 

We have options, but knowing them and selecting them is difficult.  We have option paralysis.  To know our options we have to trawl through obscure game files and make calculations.  Few people have the talent for that.  The game should do that for us.  It could even be a part of the game play as knowledge to be acquired.  The game should calculate for us the amount of time it takes us to kill a target or for it to kill us.  In the real world, engineers calculate the destructive, resistive, or protective abilities of materials and machines and weapons.  Our ultra advanced Tenno should have no less.  It would provide more game play as well as give us the objective means to sort the game out for yourself without having to wait for someone to find all this hidden data and run calculations for us.  It's too unreliable and entirely anti-immersion to depend on out of game resources to pay the game.

 

People are born with the means to see relative difference, not absolute quantities.  You can feel fast or slow but you can't tell how many km/h it's traveling without an objective measure and you can't guess accurately without training yourself with such.  You can't tell if something is 1 meter long until you hold another 1 meter long object next to it.  Do it repeatedly and you develop the ability to guess the length of an object to some degree of accuracy, by eye.  The same with pitch.  Everybody can tell if a sound is higher or lower but it takes training with objective references to know if a pitch is an A note or 440 Hz.

 

Having these objective means in game will help people to objectively identify and obtain what they want.

[Balduron04]

Lancer Vs Elite Lancer. So much diversity.

[Spunt1nk]

I love this, its brilliant!

 

I'd also like to see many more new and exciting enemies to face off against.

DE was given hundreds of brilliant ideas and concepts they could use from the people of the forums in the enemy design contest they held ages ago.

there was enough brilliant ideas in that contest alone to fill out the missions and scale the difficulty accordingly without even having to re-use a type of enemy on twice.

 

I know it would take time but they if could make U16 all about doing what Innocent_Flower said and adding lots of new baddies that Have been submitted on the forum since open beta I wouldn't even be mad, not even a little upset.

 

I know it wont happen, but its fun to dream.

[DSpite]

I am RossRam, and I approve this topic.

 

 

 

He asked it earlier.

 

Thank you for the INCREDIBLY helpful response.

 

I was asking OP to read what I had and to actually respond based on that, if what I had falls within what he started here, or if he thinks the two viewpoints are different, it was not a "oh look at my post and woe to you for writing something similar".

 

If, it appears for once, that me and the OP have managed to talk about a similar topic by accident, I'm interested in seeing on what we would agree and disagree on regarding the finer points.

 

So far he just generalized about what to do, I made specific suggestions as to what to do with units.

 

From what I can tell, all he stated so far was "just a bigger mix of the SAME things", which I do NOT want, I want to actually fight modified units, not a bigger mix of trash units.

Edited November 7, 2014 by DSpite

[VDeorsum]

very good idea +1 OP

[Innocent_Flower]

Ah, Dspite; Differences between my thread and yours. 

 

The fluff is different. I have a story and you have an aplogy. Other than that; It seems like you're asking for slight visual changes and then new abilities to be distributed amongst the crowd. I'm asking for more units (not brand new guys. current stuff mixed around) that replace eachother depending on the level. 

 

For example on the easy mission you have six grunts (butchers with guns) and two lancers. For the medium mission you have four grunts and four lancers. For the hardest mission you have three elite grunts, three lancers and two elite lancers. Nothing entirely as simplistic as that, but you'd get a huge gameplay difference from fighting small, weak grineer to fighting mostly large tough guys. 

[DSpite]

Ah, Dspite; Differences between my thread and yours. 

 

The fluff is different. I have a story and you have an aplogy. Other than that; It seems like you're asking for slight visual changes and then new abilities to be distributed amongst the crowd. I'm asking for more units (not brand new guys. current stuff mixed around) that replace eachother depending on the level. 

 

For example on the easy mission you have six grunts (butchers with guns) and two lancers. For the medium mission you have four grunts and four lancers. For the hardest mission you have three elite grunts, three lancers and two elite lancers. Nothing entirely as simplistic as that, but you'd get a huge gameplay difference from fighting small, weak grineer to fighting mostly large tough guys. 

 

I have no idea what an "aplogy" is. As far as you writing stories? Not even going to bother to justify that with an answer.

 

You seem to want more trash units. With punch through, we don't even notice that they are are there. There would be zero difference in what you are suggesting, because we can already kill level 40 version of the "base" units regardless of mix.

 

Levels are not enough. Units have to actually do what they do in Borderlands, which is coming across things that make you stop and take notice, and not just hold the trigger down for an extra second and keep running. Right now that onluy happens we when we hit Assassin squads, the Stalker, G3's etc etc, and even those tend to vaporize under multi Forma guns and min-maxed mods, but at least it's a start.