[Suggestion] Energy Resource Rework

[NakiCoTony]

Greetings,

The game looks promissing, but the only thing that bothers me is the Energy Resource System.

The most anoying things are :

- Orb drops are ranom and luck based

- You start with a minimal ammount of energy,

- It takes a long time till you aquire enough energy to enjoy your Warframe's abilities (more if teammates pick it up before you)

- You do not share health/energy orbs with your teammates,

- Once your energy is gone you have to grind for it again

Currently the abilities are "rare / one(few) time wonders".

For me this makes the combat of the game slow, and repetative.

I think if Warframe skill could be used more rarely it would speed up the game, giving it a more faster action flow.

This canbe achieved by either :

- removing the energy requirements and replacing it with cooldowns, //- great for PvP balance

or

- giving the players constant energy regeneration,

What do you think?

Yours,

Naki

[Apinaheebo]

Cooldowns would be great, and i believe easier to balance than regeneration.

[PaleMinerva]

Energy per kill sounds better still.

[Cogrock]

The way it is now seems better to me.

I think ability use as it is now is too frequent and/or powerful... I've seem a team of 4 run through a level in mere moments just by blasting through enemies with their abilities and hardly ever relying on their weapons.

If the energy system is to be reworked to allow more frequent use of abilities the damage should be scaled DOWN accordingly.

Weapons have progression for a reason... not so a team can waltz through droves of minor enemies completely ignoring them.

I always have energy when I need it to use my abilities since I don't use them on every wave of minor enemies i set my sights on, and I always have a near full energy pool at the end of a round, and thus see no need for a change.

[neKroMancer]

I think powers have too high damage at the moment. Many powers can instant kill large group of enemies extremely quickly.

Multiple solutions have been proposed.

1. Global cooldown, similar to ME3MP. This system work well in ME3 because there's weight system in place to balance it out. The lower the weight of your weapon, the faster your cooldown will be. Currently, there's no counterbalance in Warframe which make this system tricky to balance and will be led to a major nerf toward multiple powers.

2. Energy regeneration. This system already has basic coding in place thus easier to implement. However, the overall progress of the game will be slower since it allow player to play hide and seek with the enemy and wait to energy to recharge. Limited regeneration has been proposed by multiple forumers, making a cap on how much energy can regenerate, mostly just enough to cast tire1-2 powers (25-50 energy). Still power like slashdash will be spammable this way.

3. Action system, similar to Trinity's energy vampire. A good alternative which force player to fight for energy regeneration. However, this system is likely to make energy vampire obsolete. A good solution is to give energy vampire a multiplicative bonus to energy return.

4. Make energy orb into a 'squad' drop similar to blueprint and ingredient. Actually very easy to implement and it will get rid of 'teammate steal my energy' problem.

Steve already stated that energy system will be reworked. I'm content to wait and see what will be implemented.

[AmmokK]

Starting with 0 energy is a downer for me too. Would be great if we could at least have full energy while starting the round.

Cooldown sounds interesting as well.

Or, if in favor of staying with the current system: if enemies are downed by a headshot, an enery orb drops.

[NakiCoTony]

I would still prefer the cooldowns than the current system.. and some skill balance. Tone down a little the damage of the skills.

[AmmokK]

I would still prefer the cooldowns than the current system.. and some skill balance. Tone down a little the damage of the skills.

Actually only OP frame is Volt. All others need serious buffing in order to get anywhere even close to Volt.

[PaleMinerva]

That's only because of Overload.

[AmmokK]

That's only because of Overload.

Well, of course it is. Rarely see any Volt use something else. And now, with the even INCREASED range, it´s even more overpowered, up to the point i don´t need to shoot a single time until i get to the boss.

So well, as it actually is a useful spell on him, i thing he can be used way too often, which would benefit the cooldown version.

[Joos]

I'm not going to lie starting with my 200 energy would do nothing but completely break the game for my volt. I have 2 power efficiency mods on and +49% power range. Overload only taking 63 I can pop it a few times in good locations clearing out the map for myself which can then lead to me getting back to 200 energy off orbs and just spamming overload. Plus there's the artifact that regens energy which I don't have yet.

[AmmokK]

I'm not going to lie starting with my 200 energy would do nothing but completely break the game for my volt. I have 2 power efficiency mods on and +49% power range. Overload only taking 63 I can pop it a few times in good locations clearing out the map for myself which can then lead to me getting back to 200 energy off orbs and just spamming overload. Plus there's the artifact that regens energy which I don't have yet.

That is another point for cooldown, right? ^^

[Venarge]

I dont think that the energy should be redone. I like it this way, otherwise you wouldnt use your abilities whisely.

And as Joos said, there are many ways to improve you abilities!

[Sealgaire]

The devs already tried cooldowns and scrapped it in favor of the current system. I forget the reasons they gave for this, but I'll assume it has to do with cooldowns being a generally uninteresting gameplay mechanic. They remove versatility and choice from the player, and usually devolve to spamming an ability as soon as it's available again. The most interesting decision they provide is whether or not to save an abililty with a long cooldown for a boss fight or something.

The current system gives you almost complete control over how you spend your resources. It also creates tension because of that. You have to carefuly ration your energy so you have enough to survive a situation your weapons alone can't get you out of. It makes it feel like your powers really are what set you apart from the mooks you're slaughtering.

[The-Blacksmith]

The devs already tried cooldowns and scrapped it in favor of the current system. I forget the reasons they gave for this, but I'll assume it has to do with cooldowns being a generally uninteresting gameplay mechanic. They remove versatility and choice from the player, and usually devolve to spamming an ability as soon as it's available again. The most interesting decision they provide is whether or not to save an abililty with a long cooldown for a boss fight or something.

The current system gives you almost complete control over how you spend your resources. It also creates tension because of that. You have to carefuly ration your energy so you have enough to survive a situation your weapons alone can't get you out of. It makes it feel like your powers really are what set you apart from the mooks you're slaughtering.

Not particularly a fan of cooldown implementation either, for the above reasons.

However, theres a huge disaparity between power usage in the current system. You start off barely able to use your defining abilities, and then get to a point - with power cost mods, max power upgrades and energy siphon artifact - where you can literally spam your abilties. I'd be in favour of implementing a regeneration system, and then nerfing damage on powers apropriately. This way, across the levels, you can use your powers more freely (but not to the point of spamming constantly, sort of once every other pack kinda deal unless you're lucky with energy orb drops) but you're not trivialising content by just clearing room after room with Overload. With this system, power cost mods and the energy siphon artifact should be removed as well.

Also bear in mind with the idea of "carefully rationing your energy", you actually go against the design idea of Warframes like Volt/Ember/Trinity that are designed and described as essentially casters, with an alternate style to gun play.

If the current system is kept, then at the very least, orbs need to be shared.

[Sealgaire]

In most (decent) RPG systems, casters have to carefuly ration whatever resource allows them to cast spells, be it mana, memorizations per day or whatever. Having to think about when to use your powers doesn't make casters any less interesting. And as you pointed out, with mods casters can eventually use their powers often enough that they can amost entirely forgo the use of guns. Think of it as like the level progression of a D&D wizard (not 4th ed), he can maybe only cast something like a magic missile or two in combat early in his career, but at later levels he's an engine of destruction that can lay total waste to his enemies with dozens of spells at his disposal.

Orbs definitely need to be shared though. It's totally nonsensical that in a coop game you have to compete with your allies for something that makes both of you valuable to the team.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Sealgaire

[Kratier]

I am sure they considered this already but I would suggest some sort of way to generate energy by doing stylish moves like sliding kills/charged melee attacks/special move melee attack kills.

[Gilgas]

Why not have cooldowns AND an energy bar? It removes spammability on the super-powers like Overload and still makes you have to ration your energy carefully. It could work very well if implemented correctly.

[The-Blacksmith]

In most (decent) RPG systems, casters have to carefuly ration whatever resource allows them to cast spells, be it mana, memorizations per day or whatever. Having to think about when to use your powers doesn't make casters any less interesting. And as you pointed out, with mods casters can eventually use their powers often enough that they can amost entirely forgo the use of guns. Think of it as like the level progression of a D&D wizard (not 4th ed), he can maybe only cast something like a magic missile or two in combat early in his career, but at later levels he's an engine of destruction that can lay total waste to his enemies with dozens of spells at his disposal.

Orbs definitely need to be shared though. It's totally nonsensical that in a coop game you have to compete with your allies for something that makes both of you valuable to the team.

I get that, but I think the difference is rather extreme. I don't think there ever should be a situation where anyone mindlessly spams their powers, whether because they're farmed to the T or not. I also don't think there should ever be a situation where you can only use your powers a couple of times per mission due to energy and/or cooldown restrictions. Powers should have moderate use for most frames, and fairly high use for the "caster" frames, where they can weave powers between gun- and swordplay - or rather, they need to do that unless they wish to burn through all their energy and find themselves in a situation where they can't use powers for an extended duration. Basically, smooth out the curve between low level power usage and high level power usage, whilst maintaining the need to manage your energy and power usage.

This is, of course, in my opinion.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Lionsbane

[Crylos]

The energy system, currently, has some flaws. To me, at least. Sometimes when I need energy I can't find Energy orbs, sometimes I don't need it and keep getting them. This annoys me. :P Now, the way skills work I think is mostly fine (only tried two Warframes until today, mind you). It's recovering energy that is boring and annoying. I know there are some artifacts that gives energy regen but the main problem still persists. Energy orbs are most often too abundant or scarce. Additionally, from what I just read here, apparently you can get super charged with the right artifact combo.

What I suggest is having a specific energy recovering mechanic for each Warframe. As an example, Rhino Warframes could reward players with energy every time they receive (a certain amount of) damage or get hit with an attack or maybe every X attacks. This encourages the "in-your-face" close range playstyle and high defence nature of the Rhino abilities. Another example, this time on the opposite side of the spectrum, Ash could grant energy everytime they evade an attack or even a passive energy regen effect (only when in combat) that dissipates if the character takes damage. This would encourage players to use Ash evasively and taking advantage of invisibility skills. Again: these are just examples.

Now, this can't be done willy-nilly as certain mechanics could cause problems. Like giving some Warframe energy on landing a crit or each time an enemy is killed. Even so, I really like the idea of each Warframe having their own unique way of gaining energy.

Here are some suggestions from me: [balance at will, these are basically from the top of my head, forgive me if I've forgotten any]

Rhino: receive energy every time you are hit (maximum 20 energy every 5 seconds)

Ash: gain 20 energy on a successful evade (using a dodge roll or maybe a skill)

Trinity: gain energy everytime you apply a debuff to an enemy (slowing, stunning, etc)

Excalibur: sprinting gives 3 energy per second, jumping gives 5 energy (only when in combat)

Loki: gain energy when hitting enemies in the back (more energy for slower fire rate weapons)

Volt: regenerate energy for each enemy in range

Ember: gain 5 energy everytime you deal damage to an enemy (once every 2 seconds)

[gell]

Hello forum, as my first post, I agree with the OP. I don't like how energy is handled currently. Crylos expanded the OP's thoughts in the post above me and I think it's worth considering different methods of energy gain if we're to have such powerful moves like Volt's Overload.

I've played with a few frames now, and I find the more supportive or situational frames to lack energy the most. As an offensive frame like Volt or Excalibur, you tend to use energy when you have it, for faster destruction. For Loki or Trinity however, you don't always need health or energy, or decoys/invisibility/teleport, so either you sit with full energy for a while, or you use it and end up not getting more because others in your party are the offensive frames. I don't mean to call out the offensive frames, but since they tend to run in front, they get all the orbs and use them up so they are constantly gathering orbs and if I'm Trinity, I'm sitting there with 8 energy and never any more, unable to help anyone or myself with my powers. I don't think games should turn into a battle for energ hording, as certain frames are just made to go in front.

Like I said, Crylos' post above works out some nice suggestions for the frames, but overall, I want to say that "stamina" is used in other games as a good way to enforce power usage. Granted in Warframe, we already have stamina for our acrobatics, but likewise, the energy bar could regen quickly, and the devs would have to rebalance the effects accordingly. However, we could keep the damage values mostly the same, because I have a suggestion: The energy bar could fill up quickly for the first 50 energy, and slow down between 51-100, and slower for 100+. This way, you can't just spam super powers all the time, but lesser energy powers still get a lot of use (it might take only 5 seconds to gain 25 energy, but take 1-2 minutes to gain 150). Energy orbs can still co-exist with energy regen. That way you can get lucky and top off for that power you really want to use.

Clarification: If you've played Team Fortress 2, you may be familiar with how the medic's healing works (or health regen for the medic himself). It heals slowly if you were just damaged, and faster if you haven't taken damage in a while. For energy in Warframe, I dont think it should be slow at first and faster later, but flipped. And like TF2's medigun charge rate, which charges much slower if the patient is already past max health, energy can charge slower if you already have a lot of energy. Players will have to decide if using that 100 energy power is worth it. As a compromise on frames, some frames might charge faster or slower as a whole.

It's all about making the game feel better, and currently, I think the worst feeling part of the game is how energy is handled. I shouldn't have to scavenge for energy, and fight my own teammates for it. I would suggest sharing energy pick ups, but I don't like the idea of energy pick ups as the sole source of energy anyway. I need to go break stuff to use my powers? That's awful. I need to take myself away from the fight in order to better fight? It's not the same as taking cover or retreating for an advantage. It's cumbersome to gather orbs for energy and it needs to change.

Edited January 14, 2013 by gell

[Crylos]

@gell

I like that tiered energy regen a lot. You could use your cheaper skills more often but you'd be required to save energy in order to cast your most powerful skills.

In DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online), mana works in a similar way. When players enter an instance, they start with full mana. Mana doesn't normally regen, however. To recover mana they must reach a "checkpoint" which restores part of it. If a character's mana is depleted, however, they always regen back to a small percentage of their maximum. This makes it so players are encouraged to not waste mana but also not to be doomed if they do have to spend it all.

Although I wouldn't like to have this exact system for this game, maybe it'll also be another source of inspiration.

[TormDK]

I think in general it could be balanced by adding more Max Power options for the support frames during rank up (And reworking the UI to help Mag/Trinity be more supportive in general)

[gell]

That could be possible, but I feel for a game where the warframes (or classes) are solely differentiated by their abilities (you are basically forced to use the same weapon loadout between warframe changes unless you manually change it), it's almost as if the devs don't want you to use your powers. Appearance aside, your powers are the only thing that change from one frame to another. You should be using your powers all the time. If the combat designer really intended for every frame to shoot and melee 95% of the time and only use powers when really necessary, then I whole-heartedly disagree and feel that was a wrong move.

Powers make the warframes special, and being the NAME of the game, should be more than enough reason to have players constantly using their warframe powers. Anything less is a game that doesn't even understand itself. Why make a game where it's all about the warframes, only you rarely ever use those abilities or if you're an offensive class, you use your powers pretty often but still have to go breaking stuff to get more power? It's the silliest design. Is this Megaman? Why are we breaking stuff as the only means for more energy (save for Trinity's Energy Vampire which can sometimes not be used due to lack of... energy).

Small powers should be used a lot, big powers less often. That's how it should be and it's not currently that way. It's odd that Excalibur can't just always super jump, and have that based on stamina instead (maybe hold jump to super jump). He has to go break stuff to be able to jump higher. Poor Excalibur. Trinity can't give her team more energy because her team took all the energy and no matter how much time passes by, she can't do anything basic that makes her special/useful.

I'm not trying to sound bitter, but I find it baffling that one of the core elements in the game, perhaps THE core element, doesn't really work well at all. Clearly, I support this game as evidenced by my badge, but I think the worst part of the game is currently how it handles its own selling point.

Edited January 15, 2013 by gell

[Joos]

Spamming them only breaks this game.

Ever see a volt with +80% power proficiency do nothing but spam over load in a corpus map?