Game Punishes Slow Warframes

[Aerensiniac]

Please refer to thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/24608-playing-a-tank-frame-is-actually-more-penalizing-than-rewarding/

 

The OP:

 

Started my frost recently after a loki and the difference is mind boggling.

The first issue (and probably biggest) is speed.
I can understand the idea of sacrificed mobility for more armor and defense, but i find it rather ridiculous that the frame that is supposed to soak damage is literally the last to enter the battle. My sprinting speed is that of Loki's walking speed for crying out loud and with the difficulty we have right now, there is literally no point to wait for the tank.
Quicker and faster frames just rush in, butcher everything without any need of support, and rhino/frost will arrive just about the right time to collect the left over loot.

Second issue: Knock down.
On this note i have to say that i expressed in several threads that i do not want knock downs and stuns to be also nerfed to hell since they represent one of the last few remaining challenges of the game that can actually kill you (and lets be honest here, since the passive health/shield/energy buff, the only way to die is to either get a knockdown or to be stupid enough to stand in a crossfire for 10 seconds or more).
That being said, i find that tank frames should receive a reduced chance of stun/knockdown.
On my loki, if i got knocked down i had nobody to blame, but on frost due to my reduced mobility and the fact that i am supposed to be somewhat tank these crackas, especially the infested... nope. It does not work.
Tank frame or not, if you get a knockdown in the middle of a swarm, you will be eaten alive. Even more so since Ancient Disruptors can simply shoo shoo all energy and shields away in a swing of their hand, stripping you of all chances at survival.

Third issue: Lack of complementing
This is more of a general problem than that of the tank frames, but stays true here as well.
Warframes and skills dont complement each other, drastically reducing team play experience in the long run.
In most team based MMOs classes are specific and there are specializations. Tank tanks, healer heals, engineer engineers, dps dpses.
In Warframe, everyone is ~-=t3hUltimateMegad3thDOOMknight=-~ and unites all features, classes and roles in their character while having absolutely no need for the support of others and/or teammates.
The essence of this issue shows in boss fights mainly: Bosses require no team work of any form, just a crapload of bullets. They are essentially what you call bullet sponges and you only need to team up against them to kill them quicker/have enough ammo around to ensure a safe, ranged kill.

Long story short: We are in beta but i cant really see how the end game/warranty of the game will play out on the long run. If we keep the current elements and ideals of the game, warframe will never be more than extensive grind fest with no challenge of skill and 4 derailed trains of doom murdering masses of chance less enemies much like a lawn mower is cutting through grass, with tank frames tagging behind them at all times.

[Kattefjaes]

I'm fine with movement speed being something that distinguishes frames.  Travel time, on the other hand, is a totally different issue.

 

What if they were to significantly boost speed when no enemies are in the area?

 

That's a really nice suggestion. Out of combat travel being faster than in-combat travel is a trick used to good effect in some MMOs.

[PaleMinerva]

I have an alternate solution.

 

Make inertia happen in this game. Heavier frames shouldn't necessarily be slow, especially given that they're suits of power armor - they should, however, need some time to get to top speed. Set every frame's maximum sprint speed to some arbitrary number that's the same across the board, but set initial sprint speed to some lower number and have them gradually accelerate to  maximum, according to however you want to balance it. Rush mods could be retooled to increase the rate of acceleration or increase the initial sprint speed.

 

Also, make heavier frames slightly more difficult to steer. Make them just a touch slower when it comes to turning around and doing 360's and suddenly stopping after sprinting.

Edited April 25, 2013 by PaleMinerva

[Spellcasterz]

People have to stop pretending all those fast warframe users dont know how to utilize movement skills.

You can wallrun,slide dash and wavedash as much as you want,you are not going to catch up to those save for them hitting a brickwall.

And rushers are going to utilize them(yes even those 30% sprint Lokis,bugging little bastards).

[------sepulchrave------]

I'm using a rhino frame right now and i can keep up with other frames just fine, sometimes i even overtake them. the trick is to slide repeatedly, there's a slight increase in speed when you go from sprint to slide, learn to do it smoothly and i don't think you'll have any speed issues

 

Yes you can, but it leaves little time for actually playing the game if you are always trying to keep up with the frames that are easily outpacing you.   And god help you if you miss a jump or something, they'll be half a mile ahead of you by the time you get up to speed again.

 

It doesn't pay to use the slower warframes, even though they are a lot of fun.

[Earl.Grey]

Increase slow frame stamina, after all they seem to often focus on melee attacks which also take that up, at least they run slow but then they will eventually catch up to the group.

[Mewtiger]

I have an alternate solution.

 

Make inertia happen in this game. Heavier frames shouldn't necessarily be slow, especially given that they're suits of power armor - they should, however, need some time to get to top speed. Set every frame's maximum sprint speed to some arbitrary number that's the same across the board, but set initial sprint speed to some lower number and have them gradually accelerate to  maximum, according to however you want to balance it. Rush mods could be retooled to increase the rate of acceleration or increase the initial sprint speed.

 

Also, make heavier frames slightly more difficult to steer. Make them just a touch slower when it comes to turning around and doing 360's and suddenly stopping after sprinting.

 

I actually like the sound of this, I have a friend that just got his Rhino and man does he hate being left in the dust. I logged in to play his frame a little bit and found that while you can keep up given that you know more movement mechanics than who you are playing with it does clog the play time with the feeling of just trying to match pace. 

 

If the heavy warframe were supposed to promote the feeling of being a tanky badass I think they will definitely need to address the overall difficulty of the game, because as of now there's just no REASON to be a slow clunker if Lokis are sufficient enough to tank AND butcher everthing faster then you can blink.

[Weird_Stealth]

That's a point. A function to make the map about 3 times bigger or fullsize. 

Or something like what Dead Space has, where you push a button and you have you path highlighted for you. 

 

I dislike getting paired with people who rush, granted I run through the levels my self, but I still try to find every single bit of loot I can find in the level as I go, and sometimes go exploring before I finish the level. It'd be nice if you get to the extraction point, you get extracted, but your squad mates can still have a chance to explore, loot, and then extract them selves on their own time. 

 

It's not always a matter of how fast you run, it's more of the fact that other players just go running off, sometimes get themselves knee deep in trouble, or cause those who are actually trying to explore, loot, and/or get kills, to finish the mission before they're ready. Plus you also have the problem of people getting lost trying to make it to the exit.

 

I also want to point out in other games like Mass Effect, if you finish the match/mission with all 4 players, you get a bonus for having all 4 players at the extraction point. It'd be fun if Warframe did something similar, maybe add a nice reward for not rushing, and getting to the extraction point as a group.

[Tainted_Fox]

Please refer to thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/24608-playing-a-tank-frame-is-actually-more-penalizing-than-rewarding/

 

The OP:

im gonna read the rest of this thread when i get the chance. its a really good read

i shouldn't have to equip my zorens just to keep up with faster warframes. its the fact that their sheer speed just leaves me behind, whatever abilities they have only equal mine when it comes to reaching extraction, and at the end their running speed out shines mine. so even though there's no such thing as a slow warframe, they're still slow warframes in comparison to others

 

also the locked doors make me wanna punch dolphins when i have to go back to lose ground and time just to hack a panel when they sit there at extraction being lazy. especially when i have to deal with eneimes that knock me down.

and i don't want to start rushing to keep up with others just to leave other behind. since its such a killjoy to new players and others

i also play with a private group when i have the chance. but i also made some good friends in stranger games. so i can't just not go to online games. because i can still help other players in those games too. (because im that kind of guy)

final note, i understand fixing this would be hard to implement. i didn't have much idea to fix this problem other than being a #$&(% to other players. maybe a tick box that gives you the choice to end mission and proceed to extraction. (it would give the in game cursor a purpose) tbh i don't really know what you could to to fix this at all

[DXXXVIII]

Miniosses(Scaling with the playerlevels) that need to be killed to enter next door... and i dont mean that mini-napalm-greneers that are "heavy" and still dead after 2 hits...

This would force the Team to get in as a team and then get out as a Team.

Could be like this:

4x lvl 10 player = lvl 40 Miniboss

1x lvl 30 player + 2x lvl 25 player + 1x lvl 1 player = lvl 81 Miniboss

[Dasmir]

The solution to this problem is the same solution you get to many problems in many online games: 

 

Stop playing in pick-up groups with total strangers.

 

 

The essential problem here is that your expectations do not match the expectations of your teammates, and you do not know your teammates, and could not communicate with them (I don't know if you didn't hit T to type at/chat with them, or if they just ignored you).  However, the fault is not theirs alone; if three of them made it to the exit but you did not, then you, in a game designed to be fast-paced, forcing them to stand around doing nothing instead of playing another round.  You were wasting their time.

 

 

If you do not have friends who play, use the "Find a Squad" subforum to find a clan in your geographical area (games are P2P hosted so you want to be playing with people you can connect to over the internet without a lot of lag).  If you can't find a good clan, you can play solo until you feel like you've mastered the minimap interface or attained some kind of functional memorization of the tilesets so you don't get lost or stuck on terrain.  Much of the content in the game can be done solo - I wouldn't try defense, mobile defense, or boss missions alone unless you're an expert, but the rest, maybe 80-90% of it all, should be fair game.

 

This.

[Klaww]

One way to fix this could be adding a kick vote or a kick option to kick those rushing to the end. I can see this getting abused alot though and you could always just use the private feature to play with pals, but you shouldn't be forced to do that for using a slow warframe. Another way would be to customize hosting your own public games alot more instead of the random joining the way it is, you make sure your the one hosting and set options like the ability to make it wait for everyone to get to the end, etc.

[Tyrian3k]

One way to fix this could be adding a kick vote or a kick option to kick those rushing to the end. I can see this getting abused alot though and you could always just use the private feature to play with pals, but you shouldn't be forced to do that for using a slow warframe. Another way would be to customize hosting your own public games alot more instead of the random joining the way it is, you make sure your the one hosting and set options like the ability to make it wait for everyone to get to the end, etc.

 

Kick option is a bad idea. Why?  3 people wait at the end, one slow frame is trying to get there.

Take a guess who will be the one who gets kicked in that situation, losing all the stuff he found during the mission.

 

What we need is the difficulty to adjust to the number of players and something to effectively stop rushers.

 

Also we need some sort of use for armor. It's completely useless unless you completely F*** something up and then its effect isn't really overwhelming.

 

That said, I don't really see any point in different speeds. Running/sprinting speeds only matter outside of combat. During combat you barely feel a difference because the distances are quite short.

 

The only mission type I felt that running speed was a penalty was the Grineer styled defense with the Orokin power core in the middle, where it became quite tedious to collect all the stuff between waves.

 

Sprint speed mods basically do nothing exept make it easier to rush missions.

[VeNoM0619]

please just give me the reward i know why this is in place to punish lazy people but it punish those who legitimately trying to get to extraction without losing credits

 

Correct, their fix to punish lazy people was bad. They need to allow vote-kicking to punish the lazy/griefers. You should receive the reward regardless if you: did at least 10% of team total damage OR made it to extraction.

Edited April 25, 2013 by VeNoM0619

[Kattefjaes]

I also want to point out in other games like Mass Effect, if you finish the match/mission with all 4 players, you get a bonus for having all 4 players at the extraction point. It'd be fun if Warframe did something similar, maybe add a nice reward for not rushing, and getting to the extraction point as a group.

 

Ah. ze carrot. Possibly quite a good point, rewarding good behaivior is maybe a useful approach.

[Rand0mNumbers]

Perhaps some sort of adrenaline/stamina boost for players that have fallen behind X-amount of meters. If everyone else is at extraction, your movement speed and stamina pool increase by 25-50% to help you get there faster.

 

EDIT:

If desired, you could place a time limit on it or a condition for it. If you don't use it within 10 seconds, it goes away. Or, if you are running toward the extraction point, it kicks in.

 

EDIT AGAIN:

 

You know what? Just slap massive boosters on sentinels and have them fly you around. Or barrel through doors. Don't wait for them to open, just cut them down (if you are a Rhino, be the Juggernaut). :D

Edited April 26, 2013 by Rand0mNumbers

[CloudPies]

You know what? Just slap massive boosters on sentinels and have them fly you around. Or barrel through doors. Don't wait for them to open, just cut them down (if you are a Rhino, be the Juggernaut). :D

 

YES! GIVE RHINO'S ABILITY TO BREAK DOORS!!! :O

[Rumhann]

I run with a Loki . . . and am continually the last person to extraction if I can get there.  I'm not lazy, I'm not lost (most of the time) - what I am is stuck behind continual lag issues.  Doors don't open for me, I can't go up stairs or ramps because my warframe is stuck on some elevation difference, elevators drop me through the floor forcing me to call it back to try again while everyone else is rushing ahead, I have to keep swinging my melee weapons because I can't tell if the things are dead yet.

 

Having the sprint mod and sliding a lot do not matter when my warframe pauses to get it's bearings every few meters.

[TheVavil]

Why are Sprint Speed Mods even in the game?

[VER1]

This game punishes anyone who does not know the map if there is someone who likes to rush ahead of other players and leave them behind to feel superior.

 

In Oceania there are a lot of players who leave other people behind and purposefully use Loki with maxed out Rush to rub it in their face.

[GloriousYellowEmperor]

I have an alternate solution.

Make inertia happen in this game. Heavier frames shouldn't necessarily be slow, especially given that they're suits of power armor - they should, however, need some time to get to top speed. Set every frame's maximum sprint speed to some arbitrary number that's the same across the board, but set initial sprint speed to some lower number and have them gradually accelerate to maximum, according to however you want to balance it. Rush mods could be retooled to increase the rate of acceleration or increase the initial sprint speed.

Also, make heavier frames slightly more difficult to steer. Make them just a touch slower when it comes to turning around and doing 360's and suddenly stopping after sprinting.

This has my vote.

Not sure if physics engine can handle right now..idk

Edited April 28, 2013 by GloriousYellowEmperor

[ZWarhammer]

I have a suggestion. They should extend the time required to get to extraction after enough players reach to say 2-3 minutes but make it so that if you don't get there in 50 seconds other players get to leave and claim the reward without waiting for you but you would still have enough time to grab the loot that dropped and make it to extraction. In the end this timer was designed to stop people from going afk for the match and still getting rewards for it but instead you could just put a timer when someone does't move for say 2-3 mins they automatically get kicked out of the game and everyone is happy :)

[Klaww]

Kick option is a bad idea. Why?  3 people wait at the end, one slow frame is trying to get there.

Take a guess who will be the one who gets kicked in that situation, losing all the stuff he found during the mission.

 

What we need is the difficulty to adjust to the number of players and something to effectively stop rushers.

 

Also we need some sort of use for armor. It's completely useless unless you completely F*** something up and then its effect isn't really overwhelming.

 

That said, I don't really see any point in different speeds. Running/sprinting speeds only matter outside of combat. During combat you barely feel a difference because the distances are quite short.

 

The only mission type I felt that running speed was a penalty was the Grineer styled defense with the Orokin power core in the middle, where it became quite tedious to collect all the stuff between waves.

 

Sprint speed mods basically do nothing exept make it easier to rush missions.

Well the reason kickvote would be bad is because it would be abused constantly. If you enter a game you just get kicked at the start regardless it happens in loads of games. Though! The option to create a new unique way of hosting games with being able to select the option to add a kickvote feature among other features youd like in your hosted game would solve this because one that doesn't like being kicked all the time could simply go to the hosted game without kick vote selected. That way if you do see those so called "trolls" they wouldn't have free reign with the feature. Honestly in all though they should just bring it back to where if your not near the extraction you still get the reward ive had a major bug issue where i was stuck in a room because the doors wouldnt open at all (no lockdown wasnt engaged) and I think it was either because the host had a bad connection or the game was just completely glitching out. It would solve alot of problems that are caused because of the server,hosts connection, game glitches, slow warframes, bugged missions, etc.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Klaww

[Dasmir]

More like, randoms pubs punishs rhinos without mana to cast charge.

[stacey69]

It punishes several other kind of people. My wife is bad at mini maps so she gets lost easily. Once I had to back track to find her and lead her to the extraction, but we both missed it.

 

Displaying a chars speed when you make your choice might help a small amount. I understand an armored char would move slower but it breaks the game.So really it does need fixing. Melee chars benefit from faster sprint speed but even this causes a problem with them then using it to rush ahead.

 

The amount of mobs you now face does slowdown people who rush but if they overgear the level of mobs they just blast through and you still have the same issue.

 

If player A is 50 yards infront of player D a hack activates or a double button door becomes active. This might give people time to catch up. It would only annoy the person rushing and maybe.. just maybe, they would learn and slow down and help people more often.

 

 

Give experience gain for staying together?

 

Option to remove +extra armor the char has allowing normal run speed? you dont need health or armor in 4 player online anyway as its 4 times easier.

 

Who knows... I agree its a pain and stops people wanting to play Rhino or Frost online or even play online at all.