So, You Got Rid Of Overheat... Only To Introduce Shatter Shield...

[Ronyn]

Im still not having issues except drones that suddenly shoot up and kill me during peacemaker when i dont have shatter shield on because peacemaker has terrible priority

Grineer = face tank

Corpus = face tank

Corrupted = face tank

Infested = peacemaker cant get close

Defense = globe or various ally CCs + Peacemaker

Excavation = Same as defense

Interception = Nearly the same as defense

Non scaling mission = 3 and face tank

I did an invasion verses grineer on pluto\charon this morning.

A friggin ton of napalms lit rooms on fire over and over again.

Without staying mobile and using cover....well face tanking wasn't going to cut it.

Such napalm heavy enemy configurations aren't the norm.

But the point of my earlier post was that there are clear counters to mesas kit.

Depending on the enemy configuration you'll run into them or you won't.

[Azawarau]

I did an invasion verses grineer on pluto\charon this morning.

A friggin ton of napalms lit rooms on fire over and over again.

Without staying mobile and using cover....well face tanking wasn't going to cut it.

Such napalm heavy enemy configurations aren't the norm.

But the point of my earlier post was that there are clear counters to mesas kit.

Depending on the enemy configuration you'll run into them or you won't.

Would you say its enough to balance the damage mitigation?

 

Cause im still not seeing any way to justify it

[Ronyn]

Would you say its enough to balance the damage mitigation?

Cause im still not seeing any way to justify it

It's hard to answer that because on one hand the mitigation is very high but on the other hand it's circumstantial mitigation.

When facing off against a ton of napalms I can barely move through the room without catching on fire shatter shield is not so impressive because it offers no defense against stuff like that.

However when facing off against a bunch of lancers and what not yet taking minimal damage it feels like I can faceroll my way through it.

 

If anything I'd say that in against truly balanced and varied enemy configurations the way that shatter shield works feels just right. 

But most times it's not a balanced enemy configuration so it feels super strong and only show sit's weakness on occasion.

This is where the encounter design and the class design have to match up better.

[GTG3000]

It's hard to answer that because on one hand the mitigation is very high but on the other hand it's circumstantial mitigation.

When facing off against a ton of napalms I can barely move through the room without catching on fire shatter shield is not so impressive because it offers no defense against stuff like that.

However when facing off against a bunch of lancers and what not yet taking minimal damage it feels like I can faceroll my way through it.

 

If anything I'd say that in against truly balanced and varied enemy configurations the way that shatter shield works feels just right. 

But most times it's not a balanced enemy configuration so it feels super strong and only show sit's weakness on occasion.

This is where the encounter design and the class design have to match up better.

 

I agree here. Shatter Shield is fairly balanced, and you have to have good control over it's timing and whatnot. Mesa isn't intended to be a terribly mobile frame, and SShield complements that well. He only two damage abilities require line of sight to the enemy, and there are a terrible lot of situations when enemies are able to shoot at you from where Peacemaker can't reach them, then SShield simply allows you to survive to reposition.

 

I wouldn't really say that it lets her be more powerful than other warframes would be in the same situation. She can't facetank better than Rhino/Trinity, she can't really out-nuke Saryn or Nova, but she can keep up and carry her weight without dying since she has to rely on her weapons and LoS ultimate to deal with enemies.

[aldlv13]

Shush you or you'll get them nerfed and somehow trinity will get nerfed in the process too!

this

[Azawarau]

It's hard to answer that because on one hand the mitigation is very high but on the other hand it's circumstantial mitigation.

When facing off against a ton of napalms I can barely move through the room without catching on fire shatter shield is not so impressive because it offers no defense against stuff like that.

However when facing off against a bunch of lancers and what not yet taking minimal damage it feels like I can faceroll my way through it.

 

If anything I'd say that in against truly balanced and varied enemy configurations the way that shatter shield works feels just right. 

But most times it's not a balanced enemy configuration so it feels super strong and only show sit's weakness on occasion.

This is where the encounter design and the class design have to match up better.

So not as is but possibly

 

Ive never had an issue with napalms on any of my frames yet and still dont understand the hate for them myself

[Ronyn]

So not as is but possibly

Right. More or less.

I think we all know that Game design is a delicate balance. I'll use extremely simplified terms here to express a point that I think you'll follow.

Most commonly there is a certain amount of rock,scissor,paper style soft/hard counter logic baked into design.

This is quite useful as a tool but requires that both sides (player and enemy groups) are set up to work within it.

Following that same simple example:

Rock would seem over-powered if all it ever encountered was scissors. Rock would seem under-powered if all it ever encountered was paper.

But by encountering both scissor and paper in a good mix most of the time rock would seem about right. As it should.

So with mesa the main problem is that she's a rock encountering mostly scissors.

 

Note: action games rely more on the softer counters and less on the hard ones.

Hard counters are near guaranteed victory verses near guaranteed defeat...

Where Soft counters are a matter of advantages and disadvantages that can be overcome or capitalized on with skillful actions.

So my whole rock,scissor,paper example is, as I said, extremely simplified for illustrative purposes.

 

Ive never had an issue with napalms on any of my frames yet and still dont understand the hate for them myself

I don't personally consider Napalms particularly problematic. I'm only stating that in mesa's case they cannot be overcome with face tanking like most other projectile based enemies can. They require evasive and/or out ranging tactics. I think it's fun. 

In the mission where I encountered a bunch of Napalms in relative close quarters I found that my normal "press 2, 3 then run and gun OR press 4 to post up and spank the masses" strategy I usually employ very successfully with mesa had to change up a bit.

This was a welcomed change and I enjoyed it.

That kind of enemy variety to inspire a player to change tactics is exactly what I want to see more of in Warframe.

[Azawarau]

Right. More or less.

I think we all know that Game design is a delicate balance. I'll use extremely simplified terms here to express a point that I think you'll follow.

Most commonly there is a certain amount of rock,scissor,paper style soft/hard counter logic baked into design.

This is quite useful as a tool but requires that both sides (player and enemy groups) are set up to work within it.

Following that same simple example:

Rock would seem over-powered if all it ever encountered was scissors. Rock would seem under-powered if all it ever encountered was paper.

But by encountering both scissor and paper in a good mix most of the time rock would seem about right. As it should.

So with mesa the main problem is that she's a rock encountering mostly scissors.

 

Note: action games rely more on the softer counters and less on the hard ones.

Hard counters are near guaranteed victory verses near guaranteed defeat...

Where Soft counters are a matter of advantages and disadvantages that can be overcome or capitalized on with skillful actions.

So my whole rock,scissor,paper example is, as I said, extremely simplified for illustrative purposes.

 

I don't personally consider Napalms particularly problematic. I'm only stating that in mesa's case they cannot be overcome with face tanking like most other projectile based enemies can. They require evasive and/or out ranging tactics. I think it's fun. 

In the mission where I encountered a bunch of Napalms in relative close quarters I found that my normal "press 2, 3 then run and gun OR press 4 to post up and spank the masses" strategy I usually employ very successfully with mesa had to change up a bit.

This was a welcomed change and I enjoyed it.

That kind of enemy variety to inspire a player to change tactics is exactly what I want to see more of in Warframe.

Well until we see enemies use more than 90% bullets mesa is going to be an issue

[RiouHotaru]

Because Ember doesn't have the health-pool for Overheat.  Mesa is a slightly squishier Ash with more utility on her belt.

 

Ember is straight DPS.

[Ronyn]

Well until we see enemies use more than 90% bullets mesa is going to be an issue

Correct.

Going forward the easiest solution is to simply lessen Mesa's ability to mitigate bullets and lasers.

However the better solution is to increase enemy variety per encounter.

It's potentially more interesting for everybody if the enemy encounters are more varied, require more shifting strategies, and challenge the way we approach things from moment to moment. That's just plain better for longevity.

Where lessening Mesa's projectile mitigation brings her down a bit but it does nothing to increase the fun for the every other frame.

Warframe has the required pieces, they just need to improve how they are placed. ah....I digress. :-)

[Azawarau]

Because Ember doesn't have the health-pool for Overheat.  Mesa is a slightly squishier Ash with more utility on her belt.

 

Ember is straight DPS.

With embers health and shields + overheat she could easily out tank any frame

 

Ember offers 2 CCs too...

 

 

 

Correct.

Going forward the easiest solution is to simply lessen Mesa's ability to mitigate bullets and lasers.

However the better solution is to increase enemy variety per encounter.

It's potentially more interesting for everybody if the enemy encounters are more varied, require more shifting strategies, and challenge the way we approach things from moment to moment. That's just plain better for longevity.

Where lessening Mesa's projectile mitigation brings her down a bit but it does nothing to increase the fun for the every other frame.

Warframe has the required pieces, they just need to improve how they are placed. ah....I digress. :-)

Shes still an issue as is and DE wont get moving on that solution any time soon

[(PSN)THE_DEMONS_PAW]

And some idiot will call for a Valkyr nerf while they're at it. Not that it will happen.

Dont touch my waifu ;_; but doesnt Mesa needs it because during peacemaker she can get easily rekt because shes stationary ? Dont change mesa before i even get her >:(

[TwiceDead]

I agree here. Shatter Shield is fairly balanced, and you have to have good control over it's timing and whatnot. Mesa isn't intended to be a terribly mobile frame, and SShield complements that well. He only two damage abilities require line of sight to the enemy, and there are a terrible lot of situations when enemies are able to shoot at you from where Peacemaker can't reach them, then SShield simply allows you to survive to reposition.

 

I wouldn't really say that it lets her be more powerful than other warframes would be in the same situation. She can't facetank better than Rhino/Trinity, she can't really out-nuke Saryn or Nova, but she can keep up and carry her weight without dying since she has to rely on her weapons and LoS ultimate to deal with enemies.

 

She can facetank better than Rhino as long as she doesn't get *@##$-slapped, which is hilariously easy to avoid. Just saying... 

[Gahrzerkire]

I see your point and it's not that I completely disagree with you, it's just that I think Eclipse has a bit more to it due to how it behaves with light/dark spots. Knowing dark spots in a tile is knowledge that can aid you in making skillful plays. Maybe the DR is a bit excessive but otherwise I like its light/dark mechanic. 

 

In comparison Overheat/Old Iron Skin was just something you slapped on and you were immortal forever since you can both tank and avoid bullets without worrying about losing your damage resistance. 

Shatter sheild does not make you immortal. level 35 enemies rip straight through. And at a pace i am almost not comfortably with. And without it Mesa is like tissue paper. She needs her god damn shatter sheild, its also duration based, need to reactivate every minute. forget? welp youll be dead in seconds. And i mean it. T3 and T4 enemies destroyed me without it.

[Azawarau]

Dont touch my waifu ;_; but doesnt Mesa needs it because during peacemaker she can get easily rekt because shes stationary ? Dont change mesa before i even get her >:(

I think its time we sat down and nominated Valkyr for biggest swinger

 

Then again the whole hysteria thing shouldve been a hint

[Ronyn]

She can facetank better than Rhino as long as she doesn't get $#*(@-slapped, which is hilariously easy to avoid. Just saying... 

That is actually not a very helpful comparison. Rhino is simply ineffective at facetanking passed the 30's at this point.

Iron Skin just isn't much more than a safety net for these days, it doesn't allow him to actually face tank and protect allies worth a darn.

Rhino "tanking" is more about excessive CC by spamming stomp. It's not to say that it has to go all the way back to the old, purely invincible iron skin. But right now it's not good enough to do it's job. It's mainly a crutch for early game before the real challenge kicks in.

 

As for Mesa... I've explained the whole thing about specialized mitigation already.

[Edgedemon]

To clarify, they got rid of most percentage based damage mitigation abilities such as old Iron Skin and Overheat because they were too powerful, yet now they re-introduce this mitigation mechanic for Shatter Shield.

Like Trinity Link and Blessing?

if anything Shatter shield is an alternative to Zephyr Turbulence, and Ember 

 

I don't mind much spamming accelerant to stun enemies, but to be honest I miss overheat. She is too plushy without it.

Accelerant true worth is not the measly stun, but the 3x+ damage for all of her skills, not to mention the only way to get something out of Ignis, also ember is oriented to offense and can fulfill that role as she is now, i took her to 40 mins survival without any formas on during the Mutalist event.

 

that said she could use a defense boost while inside her ring of fire to allow a defensive position based alternative to her usual run and gun.

[Edgedemon]

She can facetank better than Rhino as long as she doesn't get $#*(@-slapped, which is hilariously easy to avoid. Just saying... 

same as Trinity an Zephyr who are the hidden tanks in the game

[Davoodoo]

Difference is that ember was supposed to be mobile caster, mesa on the other hand excels when shes immobile.

 

Really i dont miss old overheat now that i have accelerant, but i wouldnt switch damage reduction mesa for cc.

 

Though if we are at it yeah it could be changed, tbh i would prefer turbulence or smth like that instead of straight up dmg reduction.

Thematic addition:

Suppression fire.

Enemies in area(modified by range) attack x% slower, have accuracy reduced(emulates highest possible speed) while mesa takes no dmg from x next attacks(modified by strength) hitting enemy with firearms adds extra charge with cooldown x s(inversely modified by duration)

Lasts till cancelled.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Davoodoo

[LukeAura]

Overheat didn't fit the role of Ember (Glass Cannon according to Scott). It had nothing to do with the theme. Mesa isn't a glass cannon and she has no shields. IMO Mesa is basically a not so stealthy Ash.

 

And Ash has the potential to achieve 20x his durability? No, no he does not. He avoids taking damage, but that doesn't mean crossing lines of fire won't take him down just as fast as when he isn't invisible.

Gunslingers, is not just a theme, it is a very typical class, it is a playstyle. And it is not one that should have 20x durability.

Your statement could also excuse Rhino being turned in to a glass cannon or a support healer, because his theme need not affect his playstyle. It wouldn't matter if he's the 'heaviest' frame, named 'Rhino', with a heavy armoured design. Theme and playstyle are linked, with some frames more than others. Hydromancer Pirate, really has nothing to strictly define it, although Hydroid covers Pirate fairly well any ways. But pure 'gunslinger' does have a very defined idea behind it. 

A lightly armored, offensive looking frame about 'gunslinging' should not include playstyles like 'facetanking'. That is not what people go to a gunslinger for.

[RexRgisIocus]

And Ash has the potential to achieve 20x his durability? No, no he does not. He avoids taking damage, but that doesn't mean crossing lines of fire won't take him down just as fast as when he isn't invisible.

Gunslingers, is not just a theme, it is a very typical class, it is a playstyle. And it is not one that should have 20x durability.

Your statement could also excuse Rhino being turned in to a glass cannon or a support healer, because his theme need not affect his playstyle. It wouldn't matter if he's the 'heaviest' frame, named 'Rhino', with a heavy armoured design. Theme and playstyle are linked, with some frames more than others. Hydromancer Pirate, really has nothing to strictly define it, although Hydroid covers Pirate fairly well any ways. But pure 'gunslinger' does have a very defined idea behind it. 

A lightly armored, offensive looking frame about 'gunslinging' should not include playstyles like 'facetanking'. That is not what people go to a gunslinger for.

 

Bladestrom makes him Invincible...Peacemaker makes you dead. 20s Invisibility with maxed duration vs 95% maxed str damage mitigation. Seems pretty fair to me.

 

Edit: Is the 95% mitigation confirmed, or is it just the wiki saying that's the max? Warframe builder says Shatter Shield is unaffected by power str. Or is the Builder not updated?

 

Edited December 3, 2014 by RexRgisIocus

[Ronyn]

Gunslingers, is not just a theme, it is a very typical class, it is a playstyle. And it is not one that should have 20x durability.

-But pure 'gunslinger' does have a very defined idea behind it. 

A lightly armored, offensive looking frame about 'gunslinging' should not include playstyles like 'facetanking'. That is not what people go to a gunslinger for.

If its so defined and has things that "people" play it for....

why are some folks happy with Shattersheild and some folks not?

[Yinkuji]

It is 10x better to use Shooting Gallery instead or Shatter Shield if you're planning to use Peacemaker. Take reduced damage or no damage at all. The choice of simple.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Yinkuji

[.Czern]

It is 10x better to use Shooting Gallery instead or Shatter Shield if you're planning to use Peacemaker. Take reduced damage or no damage at all. The choice of simple.

5% is pretty much like 0% (unless you fight against ridiculously high leveled enemies), and unlike Shooting Gallery works against every enemy shooting at you, at any range, and you don't have to solo to take full duration for yourself.

[Yinkuji]

5% is pretty much like 0% (unless you fight against ridiculously high leveled enemies), and unlike Shooting Gallery works against every enemy shooting at you, at any range, and you don't have to solo to take full duration for yourself.

Shooting Gallery not only costs less energy, but it has a longer duration as well making it significantly easier to sustain. Outside of a few tilesets, a simple Stretch mod will allow you to jam the weapon of any enemy that is in range to shoot you. I'll use Shooting Gallery over SS to setup Peacemaker any day.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Yinkuji