Hek, From Amazing To Terrible.

[Soulfighter]

so are there any reasons to use shotguns over a scindo now ?

[GTG3000]

Thats not really Tea! BLASPHEM- *is shot dead*

 

I would like ot blame the Grineer with their super charged Grakatas for my untimely demise. Cuz I could never blame the Corpus. Dem cute blockheads <3

And that actually is tea :-p.

Let's rise another glass for the cute crewmen! <3

 

 

 

so are there any reasons to use shotguns over a scindo now ?

Well, shotgun doesn't shake the screens of other players like scindo does.

[NalkorRN]

That's what shotgun users do in any shooter game.  That's the role of shotguns, close quarters combat.

 

The only other game, in my experience, where I can kill someone from a fair distance away with a shotgun is TF2.  And TF2 is silly.

The S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series says hi. It wants to show you Strelok hitting you in the chest from well over 75 meters away with a slug round loaded into his semi-automatic shotgun. That's not getting into the dart round either, which was even more accurate at longer distances (and much harder to find/expensive to buy).

[MilesCadre]

The S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series says hi. It wants to show you Strelok hitting you in the chest from well over 75 meters away with a slug round loaded into his semi-automatic shotgun. That's not getting into the dart round either, which was even more accurate at longer distances (and much harder to find/expensive to buy).

oh dont forget Operation 7. On their "Practice" mode to try weapon builds, shotguns were hitting targets reliably at their 50 yard and 100 yard ranges.

 

But thats Operation 7, not Warframe ^^ (I also had a SG550 Sniper (god I love that rifle) that had accuracy that rivaled most sniper rifles. I got banned twice for hack accusations, but both times were overruled and I'm still kickin in there ^^)

[GTG3000]

oh dont forget Operation 7. On their "Practice" mode to try weapon builds, shotguns were hitting targets reliably at their 50 yard and 100 yard ranges.

 

But thats Operation 7, not Warframe ^^ (I also had a SG550 Sniper (god I love that rifle) that had accuracy that rivaled most sniper rifles. I got banned twice for hack accusations, but both times were overruled and I'm still kickin in there ^^)

 

Bet that didn't get nerfed.

[Hatr]

They nerfed the weapons because the maps are small and there are rooms separated by doors, if you can shoot with a shotgun in the entire place what's the point of snipers then. Of course it isn't fair because it isn't our fault that they havent made large maps... we are suffering nerfs because of the map designs.

[MJ12]

They nerfed the weapons because the maps are small and there are rooms separated by doors, if you can shoot with a shotgun in the entire place what's the point of snipers then. Of course it isn't fair because it isn't our fault that they havent made large maps... we are suffering nerfs because of the map designs.

 

Ehh a shotgun with sniper range doesn't have any problems. Which is what I've said repeatedly in this thread (and gotten downvoted by some random dummy for it).

 

Assume, in a strange and magical world, the Hek had the base stats of the Snipetron. Like totally identical. It just uses shotgun ammo to fire a 100 damage slug at a rate of 1.5, with a tiny magazine and a huge reload time. Would anyone still call it overpowered? Well sure, but would anyone listen to those guys?

 

Nah, they'd probably be going "Hek needs a buff."

 

So this thought experiment demonstrates, very handily, that a 'sniper shotgun' wouldn't be imbalanced. The Hek's damage is out of line for said weapon, sure, but that doesn't mean its role should have been removed.

[Ranteamo]

I used my potatoed HEK in the weekend for solo bp farming(farmed out the 3 bps for 6 warframes). It's still beast againts bosses, but yeah, it's not that good to shoot in distance. I still prefer this as primary. I don't like the other shotguns or hell no to the rifles...

[Feynt]

I'll have to weigh in on this topic as a non-Hek user, not quite made yet, but I did thoroughly enjoy the Strun.  There is a very noticeable difference in the power of the Strun.  I left it modded (because no other shotguns, why bother removing them?) and had fond memories of it one shotting level 30-40 chargers at point blank or near point blank range (occasionally with poor accuracy I'd miss a few pellets and it'd take another blast to down it).  Imagine my surprise when, after the patch, I pulled it out and tried using it again in a 20-30 zone and it took 2-3 shots to kill a charger with the barrel pressed against its head/shoulders/whatever.

 

Yes, this is a noticeable nerf.  Do I feel it's bad, not altogether no.  Mid game it makes sense because why should you be one shotting things, let's have some challenge am I right?  But then I got to thinking about those 50 zones, and the later defense levels where the shotgun was still rather useful up close shooting an ancient in the leg, but costing me several full clips.  This means it's going to take at least 50% more ammo to take down those higher level enemies.  This is rather crippling for the late game because of the insane armour values on even the "lowest armour" units.  If you're going to stick behind this nerf, can I suggest adjusting armour scaling a bit so it's not quite as harsh?

 

Also, to echo the others:

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/748

 

This ^ is not how a shotgun works.  Shotguns lose power at range because of pellet dispersion.  If the Strun and the Boar were rather balanced previously and the Hek was the only problem, consider changing it so it fires less pellets but retains its over all damage and restore the damage so it doesn't fall off with range.  That way, closer up, it's still effective.  At range, even though it's a tight grouping, poor aim can give those few pellets a chance to wander.  The Hek is a 4 barrel shotgun right?  Just have it fire 4 pellets that scatter in its normal grouping.

[Psyked]

I felt the need to express myself "artistically"

 

[GTG3000]

I'll have to weigh in on this topic as a non-Hek user, not quite made yet, but I did thoroughly enjoy the Strun.  There is a very noticeable difference in the power of the Strun.  I left it modded (because no other shotguns, why bother removing them?) and had fond memories of it one shotting level 30-40 chargers at point blank or near point blank range (occasionally with poor accuracy I'd miss a few pellets and it'd take another blast to down it).  Imagine my surprise when, after the patch, I pulled it out and tried using it again in a 20-30 zone and it took 2-3 shots to kill a charger with the barrel pressed against its head/shoulders/whatever.

 

Yes, this is a noticeable nerf.  Do I feel it's bad, not altogether no.  Mid game it makes sense because why should you be one shotting things, let's have some challenge am I right?  But then I got to thinking about those 50 zones, and the later defense levels where the shotgun was still rather useful up close shooting an ancient in the leg, but costing me several full clips.  This means it's going to take at least 50% more ammo to take down those higher level enemies.  This is rather crippling for the late game because of the insane armour values on even the "lowest armour" units.  If you're going to stick behind this nerf, can I suggest adjusting armour scaling a bit so it's not quite as harsh?

 

Also, to echo the others:

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/748

 

This ^ is not how a shotgun works.  Shotguns lose power at range because of pellet dispersion.  If the Strun and the Boar were rather balanced previously and the Hek was the only problem, consider changing it so it fires less pellets but retains its over all damage and restore the damage so it doesn't fall off with range.  That way, closer up, it's still effective.  At range, even though it's a tight grouping, poor aim can give those few pellets a chance to wander.  The Hek is a 4 barrel shotgun right?  Just have it fire 4 pellets that scatter in its normal grouping.

 

You see, the challenge for heck ramped up nicely with the high-level locations. True, hek was overpowered on lower levels, after you've put all the mods in it. Just like every other gun you've modded the hell out. But those are low levels, they are supposed to get easy. As it was said in the thread already, shotgun mods are overpowered so far, since they give a flat increace rather than a chance, and overall shotguns need quite less of said flat increace. Hek filled role of 'sniper' so well because it was easier to aim at distances. some pellets WILL hit targets ' weakspot, if you're lucky. Dropping it's damage, or acrually increacing the number of pellets with lower damage on each would fix it.

[Effusion-]

I felt the need to express myself "artistically"

 

You, sir or madam, are my favorite.

[Rokushiki]

You sir have clearly never fired a shotgun in real life.

 

bird/buckshot are completely different from slugs... bird/buckshot contains ball bearings (similar to what you see coming out of the Hek!) while slugs are simply singular rounds designed for accuracy. of course, if the Hek were using slugs, there's no way it'd be doing the about of damage it should've been doing in the first place. looks like our shotgun was meant to be short ranged buddy.

 

on topic, i think everyone is just over reacting to the Hek nerfs... i honestly don't feel a difference because i've always been a close ranged type player. if you don't like it's range, just don't use it. that's why this game has rifles, right? the fall-off damage clearly doesn't affect you if you're within 10 meters, which is still a pretty safe distance, IMO. i might end up posting end-mission screenshots to show how much everyone is exaggerating the uselessness of this gun, or even record myself playing this game to show how much power this gun still has.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Rokushiki

[Amistyrja]

on topic, i think everyone is just over reacting to the Hek nerfs... i honestly don't feel a difference because i've always been a close ranged type player. if you don't like it's range, just don't use it. 

Many players are attracted to the Hek because it was described as a shotgun that is efficient at medium-range combat.

[Waswat]

Many players are attracted to the Hek because it was described as a shotgun that is efficient at medium-range combat.

This. Plus the sound the hek makes and the hilarious body bounces when someone is shot by it.

That's why I wanted the hek. Not because i wanted to snipe, but because I didn't like the struns effective range very much. But that's become worse now as well.

[yakutstk]

i wanted the hek because well the doom shotgun is an old friend of mine, shouldnt of nerfed it with the falloff just buffed other weapons to be more in line since late game content it still wasnt overpowered, now with this stupid falloff they need to add polarities to shotguns as well as a mod that matches said polarity that increases their effective range just to make it worthwhile that or make it a 0 energy cost mod at all levels since it is now essential to you know actually harming enemies with shotguns. 

 

Side note friend is having issues with falloff as a client if he gets too far away from the host even enemies in his face take 1 damage per pellet anyone else getting this?

 

bleh off to grab a torch a pitchfork and scream "rabble rabble rabble" at de untill they make shotguns less freaking worthless

[MoonicusMaximus]

The over-exaggeration of the length of the shotgun's optimal range is starting to reach astounding levels of ridiculousness.

[NalkorRN]

The over-exaggeration of the length of the shotgun's optimal range is starting to reach astounding levels of ridiculousness.

 It's not an exaggeration. Even with larger pellets, a tactical shotgun is very effective at medium range engagements, and we're talking 100 feet at least. They have very tight spreads, and the pellets don't magically lose their power, it's when fewer pellets hit the target that makes the lethality drop.

[MilesCadre]

Bet that didn't get nerfed.

Nope, cuz it only dealt like 20 damage by the time it reached the target and players had anywhere from 150-250 health. Course, headshot is still a headshot =)

 

EDIT: It also had absolutely no control under full auto so it was reduced to single shot, not to mention weighed ALOT so you moved almsot as slow as a guy carrying a sniper rifle. Op7 let you build your own guns ^^ and any gun with a 25.6" barrel is gonna be accurate =P

 

I felt the need to express myself "artistically"

 

cannot.....+1..... ENOUGH!

 

EDI: And it would seem I get -1 trolls too because I dont agree with how the crit chance mods need changing. So to you guys who are being -1 trolled, dont feel too bad about it.

 

If you have a truly good idea, people will listen ^^

Edited April 29, 2013 by MilesCadre

[Amistyrja]

The over-exaggeration of the length of the shotgun's optimal range is starting to reach astounding levels of ridiculousness.

I know right! Apparently people keep thinking that it shouldn't hit further than the distance a Tenno would rather simply slide forward and do a charge attack instead of shooting! =)

 

 

Really though if the Hek isn't a 'medium-range' shotgun anymore I'll just stick to my Lex. 

[MoonicusMaximus]

 It's not an exaggeration. Even with larger pellets, a tactical shotgun is very effective at medium range engagements, and we're talking 100 feet at least. They have very tight spreads, and the pellets don't magically lose their power, it's when fewer pellets hit the target that makes the lethality drop.

 

Stop talking about real life shotguns. Just cut it out.

 

In the context of Warframe, the shotgun optimal range is not where it used to be, however, it is not as short as many people seem to imagine. An overwhelming majority of engagements happen well within the new optimal shotgun range; I've had no problems with my Hek post-nerf, save for the fact that I can't one-shot level 50+ Ancients from 100 meters away now.

[Rabcor]

My hek is still as useful as it used to be at point blank range, once you're at medium range though it's unpredictable if i'll even damage my opponents at all!! (Which completely ruins the point of having an "accurate" shotgun)

 

Love the "artistic" explantion btw :) it tells exactly what i was thinking.

Edited April 29, 2013 by rabcor

[BlastGoggles]

Less damage fall-off, more pellet spread.

[NalkorRN]

Stop talking about real life shotguns. Just cut it out.

 

In the context of Warframe, the shotgun optimal range is not where it used to be, however, it is not as short as many people seem to imagine. An overwhelming majority of engagements happen well within the new optimal shotgun range; I've had no problems with my Hek post-nerf, save for the fact that I can't one-shot level 50+ Ancients from 100 meters away now.

Wanna know something funny? I can easily land headshots against Grineer taking cover by crouching against those small panels on a fence in those large boss arena rooms with my LEX. Oh, and this is them on the upper-most section of the room and I'm still next to the crate by the entrance, or reverse it and I'm on the uppermost part hitting a Grineer Lancer's head when he's in that fenced walkway with crates.

 

So sniping with the LEX is just fine and dandy, but hitting a Grineer at distance of 50 meters (which is not much at all in this game if waypoints are anything to go by) is somehow wrong when the HEK has a super full Choke to allow compression of the pellets specifically for long range use. Oh, can we nerf Councilor Vay Hek please? I don't think he got hit with the nerf bat at all.

[Waswat]

Stop talking about real life shotguns. Just cut it out.

 

In the context of Warframe, the shotgun optimal range is not where it used to be, however, it is not as short as many people seem to imagine. An overwhelming majority of engagements happen well within the new optimal shotgun range; I've had no problems with my Hek post-nerf, save for the fact that I can't one-shot level 50+ Ancients from 100 meters away now.

I have no idea what games you've been playing but with the hek the grineer and corpus missions definitely are NOT "well within the new optimal shotgun range". It's even worse when the new tile set is being used. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that one out of three factions isn't the majority of the engagements of the damn game.

As for asking people to stop [comparing real life shotguns to ingame shotguns] ("talking"), that's pretty petty and immature. If DE didn't want them to be compared to shotguns, they should not have named them shotguns. Scatterguns would've been more appropriate.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Waswat