Hek, From Amazing To Terrible.

[wqnmlb]

Hope they would UNDO this nerf, now they just ruined ALL shotguns. I wonder why don't they just delete the shotgun class?

[Zwoop]

The thing I liked about shotguns in this game is they didn't adhere to the videogame shotgun trope of having a totally arbitrary drop in effectiveness outside of really close range, which is usually done by having a crazy amount of spread as if every shotgun is a 6 inch barrel sawed-off. Given, this is usually a necessary balance decision for PvP games, but here with this patch it feels even more arbitrary and unnecessary since it's entirely PvE and everyone has potent melee that can cover decent range with maneuvers. Something definitely needed to be done about Hek's sniping capabilities, but they took it way too far.

 

I actually don't mind the idea of damage dropping off due to range and not just because of ridiculous spread, but it needs to be a lot more gradual and not just a magic line where the pellets abruptly turn to foam.

[Feindfeuer]

I might have a different idea about short and mid range, cause this

 

 

is a short range close combat scenario for me, but I'll only do a single point of damage per pellet at that range. One point, per pellet... combined with high reload, low magazine capacity and low accuracy. At the ranges where my shotguns still do full damage I'd be able to get into melee range almost instantly (or I'm already at melee range), so there's no need to waste the primary slot on a second 'melee' weapon that has also limited windows of attack cause of it using munition.

[thefnordest]

Just tested my old 30 Strun against level 29 grineer. Pre-patch, I never liked it despite the "high" damage. Considering the reduction against armoured enemies (a lot of them), and the detestable firerate, magazine size and reload times. It wasn't very good past 7 paces either.

Post-patch, damage is fine within 12m, manages to down grunts in ~2 hits which is great.

Beyond 12m however, it's about as effective as a cool refreshing breeze.

Compounded by the fact the new asteroid mine maps often have catwalks (beyond 12m away, naturally) with grunts pouring bullets from all sides, closing in would simply let you get hosed from another far catwalk.

Since enemies get even more health on higher levels, I'd bench the Strun. Again. Honestly, it's not that the Hek is too powerful. Every other weapon is second-rate compared to the Hek. The entire weapons system should be looked at. New, larger maps mean that weapons need to reach out further.

[Xenoithlol]

Read the @(*()$ posts, rendering a whole class of weapons useless, is NOT acceptable. And just because other games do stupid S#&$ with shotguns doesn't mean this one has to.

I don't see how it's useless. It's extremely bullet efficient and is strong on infected maps. It's a niche weapon now like almost every other weapon in the game besides the Braton + BV which work on almost everything. Even Gorgon was reduced to niche weapon now.

[wqnmlb]

If tthis is really about using sniper rifles they should buff sniper rifles, rather than nerf the shotguns.

[thefnordest]

I might have a different idea about short and mid range, cause this

 

is a short range close combat scenario for me, but I'll only do a single point of damage per pellet at that range. One point, per pellet... combined with high reload, low magazine capacity and low accuracy. At the ranges where my shotguns still do full damage I'd be able to get into melee range almost instantly (or I'm already at melee range), so there's no need to waste the primary slot on a second 'melee' weapon that has also limited windows of attack cause of it using munition.

Exactly.

The game has spells (resource limited, but typically more damaging than guns) and melee (uses resource that regenerates quickly), weapons have to fill in a purpose beyond these two alternatives. Since they already consume resources (ammo) and deal less damage, this area is most likely range.

Edited April 27, 2013 by thefnordest

[Davoodoo]

That's what you think of a shotgun in CoD. IRL a shotgun is accurate at 100+ meters.

 

While sniper can hit target from 5km.

[thefnordest]

While sniper can hit target from 5km.

In the world of CoD, nothing exists past 50m. You might be thinking of real life, but the max reported sniping range is 2km.

[Panzermeido]

While sniper can hit target from 5km.

We live on the Earth, son. Bullets tend to lose their velocity to air friction and gravity. The maximum reported accurate shot distance was three kilometers, and that's an anti-materiel rifle with a bullet velocity hardly short of 1000 m/s.

The DMRs, which are the closest equivalent of the Snipetron we've got in-game, are actually used at distances equal to standard engagement ranges, which are 300m in the field and roughly 60-150m in urban warfare. I hope you see my point.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Panzermeido

[Davoodoo]

We live on the Earth, son. Bullets tend to lose their velocity to air friction and gravity. The maximum reported accurate shot distance was two kilometers, and that's an anti-materiel rifle with a bullet velocity hardly short of 1000 m/s.

The DMRs, which are the closest equivalent of the Snipetron we've got in-game, are actually used at distances equal to standard engagement ranges, which are 300m in the field and roughly 60-150m in urban warfare. I hope you see my point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_recorded_sniper_kills

2,5km kill while hits without kills are done from even greater range.

[Panzermeido]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_recorded_sniper_kills

2,5km kill while hits without kills are done from even greater range.

2 miles was the confirmed max at a 12x12 target.

3km aren't really 5, nor are those combat shots.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Panzermeido

[Phoenix86]

I never used the Hek (still not rank 4) anyway i think they should re-balance it if i have to listen to ya all, like they did with the looting system in defense missions... firstly they nerfed to the ground, than they fixed into a 50-50 state, maybe they'll increase by half hek's effectiveness and make it worth to use it, not OP as before but still efficient

[GTG3000]

Before the thread gets derailed and dies in lack of response from DE, I hope they fix this nerf. Mastery-4 weapon shouldn't be a gun you keep because you'd rather not melee those toxic ancients. Although they didn't reply to the calls to buff snipetron, meh.

 

 

 

I never used the Hek (still not rank 4) anyway i think they should re-balance it if i have to listen to ya all, like they did with the looting system in defense missions... firstly they nerfed to the ground, than they fixed into a 50-50 state, maybe they'll increase by half hek's effectiveness and make it worth to use it, not OP as before but still efficient

 

Hek sure awaits fixing, but, as been stated before, the problem isn't in the gun, but in the fact that there are no competitor gun, and no actual missions to justify having an xp-locked weapon. There is stil little reason to use most of the weapons in game, and I would probably loose all hope for this game if DE chooses to nerf everything, that stands out. 

 

With some luck, though, maybe this nerf is just a test, or a temporary solution before they have proper endgame/missions/sidegrade weapons for hek as it used to be.

[MoonicusMaximus]

It didn't trump the LEX, which I'm sure will be hit with a massive nerf shortly.

And the only reason it trumped anything is because the rest of them purely, truely, SUCK.

 

I really have no reason to carry a primary weapon, as I there is not any primary weapon worth carrying.

They all are, literally, absolutely worthless going at level 35 upwards.

I just put all my rifle mods on my sentinel and call it a day, he does a better job than any of them.

Hell, now my sentinel can kill an ancient level 30 faster than the HEK does. A so-called "3 damage" laser rifle deals DPS faster than the HEK.

This is the sad state that we're in.

 

You're over-exaggerating. Pretty badly.

 

The Hek still does huge amounts of damage. Just not at ridiculous, broken ranges that outperform every weapon meant to excel beyond shotguns at that distance.

 

Granted, the damage falloff is a bit much, and DE shot look into softening it so that I'm not doing 1 damage a pellet at what should be optimal "short-range". But the Hek should never go back to what it was previously.

[SaintLucifer]

Yeah it  still does a huge amount of damage...if you shove it on the Grinner &#! and pull the trigger that is. Because after like 2 m you're better using a pistol.

[Cauldrath]

Here's an army technical manual for shotguns: (admittedly kind of old)

http://carl.army.mil/wwIItms/TM9_285_1942.pdf

 

See page 247 for the table of fire, indicating the % of pellets that can hit a 30 inch diameter circle at different ranges.  Note that 100% will hit the target at ranges up to 30yds and 35% will hit at 60yds with a 30 inch full choke barrel with a combat load.

 

So, if we want to be realistic, there should be no damage falloff at up to 30yds and falloff gradually to a range of 60-70yds.  Normally I wouldn't bring up realism arguments in a game about space ninjas, but it seems like a good compromise between having to compete with rifles and having to compete with melee weapons.

[Dasmir]

Aff i think my Strun is going to have a looong vacations with this.

[Yacc]

yes nerf is just to hard. effective range is now the same as meele weapons =/. it feels completely useless. because shooting at targets at short range, like 10-15 meters does less damage then my akboltos which are only modded a little bit,. and my hek is supercharged with all damage mods + multishot at maximum. this weaopn has no use in this state. i suggest to begin the fallof at the 2/3 of a big hall and let it falloff linear to 100 m, this should be reasonable. 

 

aside of this it wasnt possible to snipe with this weapon, one of the few distances where sniper rifles where useful was the bridge defense map and there a hek couldnt hardly hit anything there.

[Amistyrja]

I've been buying weapons just to get Rank 4 to get the Hek, I had my eye on it since the first hour I started playing. Now I'm like *this* close to Rank 4(think a few more levels on Saryn will get me there) but now I get on and hear that the Hek is useless. What's going on? It sounded like the best gun because shotguns are very sexy, especially big and long ones and one with mid-range capability sounded like the perfect gun for me. I guess I'm glad I haven't made it yet.

[Yacc]

indeed played 200 hours for this gun. leveled up many weapons to 30 just to sell em after. used a catalyst, gathering the mods was time consuming too and the cost was immense, to get a weapon which can hardly compete with mk1 braton ???

[CorpusCrewman]

RIP HEK

Such changes are not in the direction of realism. Shotguns present time are capable of shooting long distances without losing power ratio, and then *unknownfutureyear* and a shotgun loses power at 10 meters! The feeling that you shoot with salt or wads of paper.

Edited April 27, 2013 by XidomeD

[Yacc]

and neither in the direction of fun

[edryuu]

i am now asking myself what a good gun to use other than the boltor, now that the hek is S#&$...

 

i am so used to the Hek that i didnt want to use any other...i guess go back to Strun or what not

[CorpusCrewman]

- "Hey you, sign my petition."