Calculated, Adjusted Small Changes Vs Huge Swings Of Nerfs And Buffs, The Current (And Terrible) De Way.

[Caernarvon]

The recent patch has proven that the devs at the DE are unable to think in increments, and enjoy throwing balance around and breaking meta frequently by going for huge numbers whenever it comes to altering weapons (the Boltor in its early days being a really good example of that).

 

By trying to balance the Hek, an admitedly too good weapon (in that it was better at certain things while equaling other weapons in their supposed area of expertise). they applied a CoD-like damage fall-off to shotguns, breaking all shotties.

 

By trying to prevent the Gorgon from being used as a semi-auto marksman rifle, they gave it buckshot like accuracy which makes it useless even in its intended role of support bullet-hose. Nevermind that the Gorgon is apparently now more accurate when fired from the hip than when aimed at the shoulder.

 

 

This isn't how you balance a game.

Balance is done small changes at a time, until an equilibirum is reached.

 

The HEK could have been balanced by lowering its raw damage, leaving close-quarters DPS to the Boar and Strun, while allowing it to find niche as a medium range shotgun thanks to its tight spread.

A small fall-off effect occuring at long distance could have been implemented to prevent shotguns from outdamaging certain small automatic weapons at intermediate ranges.

 

As for the Gorgon, reducing the accuracy on just the first few shots of a burst would have prevented the semi-auto sniping, while allowing it to remain the heavy, stable chaingun for hosing groups of enemies or bosses with high DPS from behind.

 

This is the kind of calculated balance that I'd like to see in modern games and in Warframe.

There need to be "landmarks" in a game, that people can refer to, if a meta is to form. And don't use the "It's a beta!" argument when the game is already in open service (and with real cash in play). You don't wait until months after open public release to stabilize a game.

 

[Hemlox]

I can't suspend my disbelief in order to support the gorgon changes.

 

I've been leveling mine up, while I'm not thrilled with it, I figured it was the best fully auto option that's not a projectile.

 

Guns aren't awfully inaccurate (especially futuristic ones?), don't make the semi-auto bullets inaccurate. The first bullet should go where you put it, it is absolutely silly to program the game otherwise.

 

But since you don't want people semi-auto sniping with the heavy machine gun, which is understandable, make it hard to do semi-auto. Put a cooldown between single shots. If you click and release, make a global cooldown of a half second. Make it so that if you hold down on the trigger until full auto, that you are not affected by that global cool down.

 

TLDR: These are supposed to be futuristic guns, they shouldn't be unrealistically inaccurate like the gorgon has been nerfed into. Should you be able to semi-auto snipe with it? Not as good as you can now. Was it nerfed in the entirely wrong way? Yes.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Hemlox

[HITMAMA]

As stated my Caernarvon :  "You don't wait until months after open public release to stabilize a game".   

 

I have been a "founder" since this game was in closed beta.  As such I have spent countless hours, mods, and can only imagine how many 100's of thousands on the Hek.  I understand if they have to make changes.  Make them to the new weapons, if you must make them better.   To "nerf" the hek the way they have has rendered literally  over 100 hours of effort and game play useless to me ! ! ! 

 

I can only hope that the DE's will listen to those of us who have been here since the beginning, and are totally unhappy and totally dissatisfied.

 

I for one was going to buy a second Founders package for my secondary account, ( which is literally only like one day away from being rank 4).

 

Needless to say, I will not be "supporting" this latest update with my wallet.   

[Nedwin]

...its A BETA. And YOU are beta-tester. YOU test - you post your feedback. Not a huge post of crying and flaming devs. And you call your topic "Calculated n adjusted?". We dont want to have a single weapon which everyone will use and dont care about other weps. We need all weapons to be balanced. Whats bad that shotgun now have game-physics in a GAME? And about gorgon... i used potatoe on it today... but Are you going to SNIPE with a machine gun? Nope.

 

Make a good feedback where you post advantages and disadvantages of new patch. Advantage - balanced. Disadvantage - game is harder to play due to nerf. But it must be some kind of competition on high levels.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Nedwin

[MetalGerbil]

As stated my Caernarvon :  "You don't wait until months after open public release to stabilize a game".   

 

I have been a "founder" since this game was in closed beta.  As such I have spent countless hours, mods, and can only imagine how many 100's of thousands on the Hek.  I understand if they have to make changes.  Make them to the new weapons, if you must make them better.   To "nerf" the hek the way they have has rendered literally  over 100 hours of effort and game play useless to me ! ! ! 

 

i dont undestand. how does a change that starts its affects now somehow unmake the fun you had with it before? you can only invest so much time into guns before any more time spent with the is just you having fun and choosing to utilize that weapon.

 

"my life was great up until this point, now all those years? EVAPORATED! they dont exist any more"

 

if that sounded silly to you, its because it is silly.

 

things get nerfed. it happens in every game. you cant just make the game more ridiculous because of past mistakes or things not working out the way you planned.

 

building something on unstable foundations will lead only to ruin.

 

and ultimately: BETA is BETA.

 

you should have known full well what you were getting into. 

Edited April 27, 2013 by MetalGerbil

[Aggh]

Could have understood the Gorgon nerf if it was actually good.  The accuracy nerf just pushes it closer to the bottom of the barrel, and it was practically already there anyways.

 

 

 

...its A BETA. And YOU are beta-tester. YOU test - you post your feedback. Not a huge post of crying and flaming devs. And you call your topic "Calculated n adjusted?". We dont want to have a single weapon which everyone will use and dont care about other weps. We need all weapons to be balanced. Whats bad that shotgun now have game-physics in a GAME? And about gorgon... i used potatoe on it today... but Are you going to SNIPE with a machine gun? Nope.

Rifle mods are still subpar so being able to single fire it accurately made it decent, but not really all that good

Edited April 27, 2013 by Aggh

[Caernarvon]

TLDR: These are supposed to be futuristic guns, they shouldn't be unrealistically inaccurate

 

Warframe is not a simulator though and balance > realism in anything that isn't ArmA/OP:F, PR or RO (PR:BF2 being the FPS I spent the most time on ever).

If Warframe was realistic, shotguns could put all their pellets into a 1m circle at 50m, making most other weapons useless at common engagement ranges in WF. Similarly ARs like the Braton would have pinpoint accuracy at twice that, making marksman(Latron)/sniper (Snipetron) rifles useless in the game. And nobody wants that.

 

But the point is balancing things without making things ridiculous and broken like they are right now, with the MG having the accuracy of a shotgun (destroying its purpose in the game) and shotguns being made too weak in general (and the Hek losing its niche and going from a bit too good to terrible). Which is why I suggest the heavy MG being not very accurate in semi auto.

[Caernarvon]

...its A BETA. And YOU are beta-tester. YOU test - you post your feedback. Not a huge post of crying and flaming devs. And you call your topic "Calculated n adjusted?". We dont want to have a single weapon which everyone will use and dont care about other weps. We need all weapons to be balanced. Whats bad that shotgun now have game-physics in a GAME? And about gorgon... i used potatoe on it today... but Are you going to SNIPE with a machine gun? Nope.

 

Make a good feedback where you post advantages and disadvantages of new patch. Advantage - balanced. Disadvantage - game is harder to play due to nerf. But it must be some kind of competition on high levels.

 

You don't get it do you? The game is in open service right now. OPEN SERVICE WITH REAL MONEY IN PLAY. That's called a released game. Beta is a word devs use to justify mistakes and a constant state of incompleteness in modern F2Ps.

 

And of course I want weapons to be balanced, did you even read my post? Or do you think that the current heavy nerfs were justified in making certain weapons useless?

[Argoms]

I can't suspend my disbelief in order to support the gorgon changes.

 

I've been leveling mine up, while I'm not thrilled with it, I figured it was the best fully auto option that's not a projectile.

 

Guns aren't awfully inaccurate (especially futuristic ones?), don't make the semi-auto bullets inaccurate. The first bullet should go where you put it, it is absolutely silly to program the game otherwise.

 

But since you don't want people semi-auto sniping with the heavy machine gun, which is understandable, make it hard to do semi-auto. Put a cooldown between single shots. If you click and release, make a global cooldown of a half second. Make it so that if you hold down on the trigger until full auto, that you are not affected by that global cool down.

 

TLDR: These are supposed to be futuristic guns, they shouldn't be unrealistically inaccurate like the gorgon has been nerfed into. Should you be able to semi-auto snipe with it? Not as good as you can now. Was it nerfed in the entirely wrong way? Yes.

These guns are not realistic. Futuristic isn't a reason to make a gun better in a game.

 

The gorgon just plain should not do semi-auto precision shots. Unless the spread is so bad that you can't hit a head across a small room, this should be fair. Its dps is multiple times that of the latron and snipetron already.

[Nedwin]

So you guys rly wanted to snipe with a gatling minigun... Yay i suppose it is a small gatling gun in a Gorgon... It doesnt even has a scope. Otherwise it has 15+ kg weight which makes hard to aim... and the recoil must be horrible... Its just Rambo or Terminator can hold a gatling minigun and walk like boss.

[Aggh]

So you guys rly wanted to snipe with a gatling minigun... Yay i suppose it is a small gatling gun in a Gorgon... It doesnt even has a scope. Otherwise it has 15+ kg weight which makes hard to aim... and the recoil must be horrible... Its just Rambo or Terminator can hold a gatling minigun and walk like boss.

If it had the dps and mods to actually make up for that lack of accuracy, that'd be fine, but it doesn't and that means it's just bad now.

[Nedwin]

They got your IMBA, now you cry. The fact is that you can 2-shot level 121 mobs is not enough for you... Its beta - yes full service - we need to test all products in shop. Its always like that - when devs nerf - there's a tons of flame and S#&$ on forums. When they make your game easier - "YES WE LOVE YOU DE". You got a weapon that one-shot almost everything. Now you dont

[Starberyl]

...its A BETA. And YOU are beta-tester. YOU test - you post your feedback. Not a huge post of crying and flaming devs. And you call your topic "Calculated n adjusted?". We dont want to have a single weapon which everyone will use and dont care about other weps. We need all weapons to be balanced. Whats bad that shotgun now have game-physics in a GAME? And about gorgon... i used potatoe on it today... but Are you going to SNIPE with a machine gun? Nope.

 

Make a good feedback where you post advantages and disadvantages of new patch. Advantage - balanced. Disadvantage - game is harder to play due to nerf. But it must be some kind of competition on high levels.

 

Don't test my patience Nedwin, I'm still a beta and I will glitch the hell out of you. 

[Caernarvon]

They got your IMBA, now you cry. The fact is that you can 2-shot level 121 mobs is not enough for you... Its beta - yes full service - we need to test all products in shop. Its always like that - when devs nerf - there's a tons of flame and S#&$ on forums. When they make your game easier - "YES WE LOVE YOU DE". You got a weapon that one-shot almost everything. Now you dont

 

I'm not even rank 3, I never played with any of the guns that used to be OP. And I'm all for nerfing them compared to their previous stats, but not to the point of breaking other weapons that needed no nerfs (non HEK shotguns) and making the targeted weapons useless.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Caernarvon

[MoonicusMaximus]

The Hek was far too powerful. One Hit Kills at enormous distances, fast fire rate and decent reload utterly negating the small clip size, leading to hands-down the best ammunition economy in the game. It was broken, and now DE is trying to put it in line with other weapons, as they've already stated that aside from the MK1 Braton, all weapons are meant to be sidegrades to one another in order to facilitate player playstyles. The Hek broke this role by being the best gun you can use for any situation, and essentially forced a standard on all other guns that couldn't reach its level of broken.

 

All that said, the Hek's falloff distance should be longer than that of the Strun and Boar, because of its tight spread. But it should never go back to what it was; OHK shotgun sniping in which you never, ever ran out of ammo. That S#&$ was just ridiculous.

 

 

 

EDIT: It's also kind of humorous because, in this same patch, DE provided proof that they do make small adjusted changes, through the Grakata buff. It started off slightly weak, and was tweaked in a subtle way that suddenly made the gun viable.

Edited April 27, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Guest]

How can you form a meta...

If the game is still in beta!?

 

rhymes

[Vilesavant]

I understand folks are mad, there are some good posts and data going around about the changes. Lets not start going after DE, those people have been working themselves to the bone for us. Lets at least give them the respect they deserve. Most likely we'll have a hotfix in a few days.

[NalkorRN]

These guns are not realistic. Futuristic isn't a reason to make a gun better in a game.

 

The gorgon just plain should not do semi-auto precision shots. Unless the spread is so bad that you can't hit a head across a small room, this should be fair. Its dps is multiple times that of the latron and snipetron already.

Too bad modern Light Machine Guns are indeed more accurate than the Gorgon. You even have modern shotguns that can easily have multiple pellets hit at ranges well past 50 meters. Heck, even assault rifles are able to land distance shots and people from World War 2 were hitting people from over 400 yards+ away using a Bolt Action rifle with iron sights because a scope would give away their position.

[Shifty_Shuffler]

Well, just had a few games with my Gorgon to see what all the fuss was about. Meh. Not that bad. Needs a bit of a tweak, but it's not as bad as people have made it out to be.

 

I get the Hek tomorrow, so I will have an unbiased view on that.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Shifty_Shuffler

[Vilesavant]

I'm on the fence about the Hek. I tested it (all modded out) and honestly still feels like Jesus' pimpslap, but the drop-off keeps it close range. Mind, it was only one mission's worth testing.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Vilesavant

[Krilion]

YOU HAVE MY BOW!

[ShimmerDoll]

Wait until they nerf the frames now to force people to buy new frames they will release. I could totally see them doing that and it would suck. Especially people like me who only play 3 characters because I find all the others visually ugly in design. They'll nerf popular characters to sell new ones most likely. After todays patch I have a really bad feeling about this game. I think the balance changes are all designed around selling the next set of powerful guns or characters.

[GloriousYellowEmperor]

Wait until they nerf the frames now to force people to buy new frames they will release. I could totally see them doing that and it would suck. Especially people like me who only play 3 characters because I find all the others visually ugly in design. They'll nerf popular characters to sell new ones most likely. After todays patch I have a really bad feeling about this game. I think the balance changes are all designed around selling the next set of powerful guns or characters.

God if they do this I quit immediately. 

[Feldgrep]

This game needs to not nerd the godly guns and frames. Those aren't the problem. Make better enemies. Challenge us more. A third of the enemies are stunned for five seconds if they are electrocuted, another third are three times the size of a rhino, and the last third melt in fire. Easy peasy.

[ShimmerDoll]

God if they do this I quit immediately. 

I'm guessing that's their plan. I've seen this pattern in alot of games and todays nerf was too strong to ignore that it might be a possibility.

 

 

When they have new frames, to get people interested (force them to buy/farm them) they'll probably nerf the current ones instead of doing the professional thing and actually making the new ones good. That's how they will keep making money off the foolish.

 

You'd have to look on reddit to see if anyone posts the ninja nerfs they might do too.

 

 

I'm also sick of these big nerfs on Fridays, and then they go hide for the weekend. There's no discussion between the devs and the players. This all should be discussed.

Edited April 27, 2013 by BloodDoll