Why Does It Take So Long To Balance The Game? (De, Please Read)

[Vance.Stubbs]

This is not a rant thread, more like an outcry.

 

I really don't get why are balance problem that are present for more than a YEAR are still not fixed. I am not a game designer, but even for me it would take an evening to make the game far more balanced and close the gaps between unused and overused weapons, using my knowledge and ideas from forums (no offence to Scott).

 

Here is a list of problems that are still not fixed:

 

1) Shotgun mods imbalance. This issue was and is present for more than a year since Mods 2.0 and still nothing was done about it. Point Blank needs more ranks and overall stats change.

 

2) Elemental mods imbalance. Another issue that was here since Mods 2.0 and wasn't fixed at all. I am referring to Shocking Touch, Deep Freeze and North Wind capped at 60% damage at max rank for some reason (same as Archwing electricity mod by the way).

 

3) Useless physical mods. Again, no reason why primary weapons physical mods are capped at 30%, secondary at 60% and melee at 90%. All of them should be brought at 90%. Present since damage 2.0 and wasn't looked at.

 

4) Multishot and damage mods for primaries and secondaries. Old issue, was never looked at too.

 

5) Scythes. It seems that DE clearly forgot to buff them along with other heavy weapons, people brought up this topic more than a dozen of times and still nothing was heared in return.

 

6) Ether weapons. One of the coolest weapon families is now absolete since damage 2.0. There were plenty of threads suggesting them to deal corrosive or gas damage (to highline their anti-infested origin), nothing was changed still.

 

7) Gram. There were lot's of ideas on how to make this sword more unique, making it deal Electricity, Radiation or even Blast damage (I remember at least 5 threads, including mine). Nothing was done again.

 

8) Gorgon. Gorgon was removed from the market for such a long time and DE did not do anything with it at all. Even not removing the accuracy nerf (which is funny, that right now we have Soma, Boltor Prime and etc that completely outperform Gorgon in every single way)

 

9) Ammo pools for rapid-fire guns. This issue was touched insignificantly, but still, we need a separate ammo pool pick-ups for full auto pistols and fast firing primaries (like Grakata, Glaxion, etc)

 

10) Other underwhelming weapons (Braton Prime (hooray, it getting looked at!), Supra, Ballistica, Venka, Silva and Aegis, dual Daggers, Alert Swords, etc). There were tons of complaining regarding those weapons, with amazing and practical suggestions, but we got nothing from DE at all.

 

11) Weak "utility mods" and basic status chance mods. Reload speed, max ammo and mag size mod bonuses are hardly worth using at all.

 

I am tired of "b-but it's beta!" excuse. You can't use it anymore since there were LOADS of feedback and it got completely ignored. Same with "DE are working hard to fix the gaem!" -- they do, but it was said multiple times by DE that they have diffirent teams working on their specific tasks (Art team, tech team, design team and etc). There is a team that works on balance and it should do so.

 

Dear Scott, please, find some time and make an update focused on BALANCE issues that were reported hundreds of times.

 

Peace.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Vance.Stubbs

[CrazyCatLad]

9 mod points to get back up fast and a waste of a precious mod slot (Handspring)

 

 

 

I think some of the points you made could be fixed with a utility slot...for everything. Add a utility category for mods (handspring, radar, reload, max ammo, maglev, parrying mods etc...)

 

 

Edit: I've noticed there are no high ranking melee mods to level up. I potatoed my fang primes, used a forma (Pre-stance) and now have a stance. I have like 8 points left over.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Lanieu

[BerelHawdos]

 

 

1) Shotgun mods imbalance. This issue was and is present for more than a year since Mods 2.0 and still nothing was done about it. Point Blank needs more ranks and overall stats change.

 

 

NO! GOD NO! NO MORE RANK 10 MODS!

[Vance.Stubbs]

NO! GOD NO! NO MORE RANK 10 MODS!

 

Well, then enjoy shotties being bad all the time.

[Kasumi-]

NO! GOD NO! NO MORE RANK 10 MODS!

Yes, god yes, more 10 rank mods! (for shotguns. Man they need a buff, aside from the Phage and Hek.)

[BerelHawdos]

Yes, god yes, more 10 rank mods! (for shotguns. Man they need a buff, aside from the Phage and Hek.)

Then buff their stats...

[Vance.Stubbs]

Then buff their stats...

 

If they just buff shotgun stats, the "feel of progression" will be kinda gone.

[Burns2PvP]

This is not a rant thread, more like an outcry.

 

I really don't get why are balance problem that are present for more than a YEAR are still not fixed. I am not a game designer, but even for me it would take an evening to make the game far more balanced and close the gaps between unused and overused weapons, using my knowledge and ideas from forums (no offence to Scott).

 

Here is a list of problems that are still not fixed:

 

1) Shotgun mods imbalance. This issue was and is present for more than a year since Mods 2.0 and still nothing was done about it. Point Blank needs more ranks and overall stats change.

 

2) Elemental mods imbalance. Another issue that was here since Mods 2.0 and wasn't fixed at all. I am referring to Shocking Touch, Deep Freeze and North Wind capped at 60% damage at max rank for some reason (same as Archwing electricity mod by the way).

 

3) Useless physical mods. Again, no reason why primary weapons physical mods are capped at 30%, secondary at 60% and melee at 90%. All of them should be brought at 90%. Present since damage 2.0 and wasn't looked at.

 

4) Multishot and damage mods for primaries and secondaries. Old issue, was never looked at too.

 

5) Scythes. It seems that DE clearly forgot to buff them along with other heavy weapons, people brought up this topic more than a dozen of times and still nothing was heared in return.

 

6) Ether weapons. One of the coolest weapon families is now absolete since damage 2.0. There were plenty of threads suggesting them to deal corrosive or gas damage (to highline their anti-infested origin), nothing was changed still.

 

7) Gram. There were lot's of ideas on how to make this sword more unique, making it deal Electricity, Radiation or even Blast damage (I remember at least 5 threads, including mine). Nothing was done again.

 

8) Gorgon. Gorgon was removed from the market for such a long time and DE did not do anything with it at all. Even not removing the accuracy nerf (which is funny, that right now we have Soma, Boltor Prime and etc that completely outperform Gorgon in every single way)

 

9) Ammo pools for rapid-fire guns. This issue was touched insignificantly, but still, we need a separate ammo pool pick-ups for full auto pistols and fast firing primaries (like Grakata, Glaxion, etc)

 

10) Other underwhelming weapons (Braton Prime (hooray, it getting looked at!), Supra, Ballistica, Venka, Silva and Aegis, dual Daggers, Alert Swords, etc). There were tons of complaining regarding those weapons, with amazing and practical suggestions, but we got nothing from DE at all.

 

 

11) Weak "utility mods". Reload speed, max ammo and mag size mod bonuses are hardly worth using at all.

 

I am tired of "b-but it's beta!" excuse. You can't use it anymore since there were LOADS of feedback and it got completely ignored. Same with "DE are working hard to fix the gaem!" -- they do, but it was said multiple times by DE that they have diffirent teams working on their specific tasks (Art team, tech team, design team and etc). There is a team that works on balance and it should do so.

 

Dear Scott, please, find some time and make an update focused on BALANCE issues that were reported hundreds of times.

 

Peace.

 

Yeah.. They tend to ignore a good majority asides from the megathreads I have found. It feels sometimes that we may as well give up and say, "Nope. Not reporting bugs, they wont get looked at". Even now, if they look at it we wont get a response to say that they have seen it or anything.

[Arlayn]

Mostly because DE is still adding things, and still has not added the focus system, and still everything around your 11 things need to be balanced. More enemies are coming out... More tilesets... more bosses... more weapons... more warframes... more mods... there will always be more, more, and more...

 

Even if DE DID balance them... guess what? They are just going to keep balancing them. Infact they have gone back to balance those things in the past. REALLY... There is no reason to balance them now to be honest. I mean they probably are. I am wouldnt doubt Scott goes back. Looks along with his merry men, and women who work with him on this balancing thing. They all look. Then they go back and look at other factors in the game. I have a feeling there is a certain factor in the game that they are afraid of at the moment being effected if they were to change the effects of those mods any time soon. As I stated before focus could have any effect.

 

Also you run out of bullets with grakata, and glaxion? Did you try putting an ammo mutation on? Because THAT is what your supposed to do. Along with having buddies with ammo restore on. Imagine if grakata, and glaxion had more ammo? If they get more ammo their damage should go down they would immediately become TOO OP...

 

buff all physical mods...? They already go MUCH HIGHER than 90 on everything... wtf are you talking about?

 

but lets get to the point balance as a whole... is a VERY SLOW PROCESS... if they buff too much weapons might become too OP... I don't want the game going back to what it was during Closed Beta. It was fun being God... , but I don't want that in the current game. Infact I the new infested made me cry tears of joy thanks to the fact they finally made Veteran player level enemies that make us think for once...

[Vance.Stubbs]

Mostly because DE is still adding things, and still has not added the focus system, and still everything around your 11 things need to be balanced. More enemies are coming out... More tilesets... more bosses... more weapons... more warframes... more mods... there will always be more, more, and more...

 

Even if DE DID balance them... guess what? They are just going to keep balancing them. Infact they have gone back to balance those things in the past. REALLY... There is no reason to balance them now to be honest. I mean they probably are. I am wouldnt doubt Scott goes back. Looks along with his merry men, and women who work with him on this balancing thing. They all look. Then they go back and look at other factors in the game. I have a feeling there is a certain factor in the game that they are afraid of at the moment being effected if they were to change the effects of those mods any time soon. As I stated before focus could have any effect.

 

 

New stuff has absolutely nothing to do with old stuff staying unbalanced (majority of which were bad since their release).

 

Also you run out of bullets with grakata, and glaxion? Did you try putting an ammo mutation on? Because THAT is what your supposed to do. Along with having buddies with ammo restore on. Imagine if grakata, and glaxion had more ammo? If they get more ammo their damage should go down they would immediately become TOO OP...

 

but lets get to the point balance as a whole... is a VERY SLOW PROCESS... if they buff too much weapons might become too OP... I don't want the game going back to what it was during Closed Beta. It was fun being God... , but I don't want that in the current game. Infact I the new infested made me cry tears of joy thanks to the fact they finally made Veteran player level enemies that make us think for once...

 

Ok, I was trying to take you seriously and wright a long response why I disagree with you, but I have a feeling it would be worthless. To me, you're another uneducated white-knight who doesn't even know what "OP" means. It seems to be a trend on Warframe forums, lots of clueless people using words like "OP", "P2W", "Powercreep" without even knowing what those things are.

[MDRLOz]

Game balancing is becoming a big issue. 

 

We now have so many frames, weapons, mods, sentinels, kubrows and archwings that balancing needs to be more than an afterthought after main content patches are done. 

 

Balancing needs to become a continuous thing, with items needing to be constantly assessed and reevaluated as new stuff comes out. 

 

Each new weapon relates to other weapons in effectiveness and unless the new equipment comes out perfectly balanced with everything else (near impossible task) then other things will need a lookin as time goes by. 

[Octoknightx]

It's not like there isn't some guy dedicated to balancing...I just imagine this poor soul is stressed the hell out by the amount of weapons needing balance. This person also needs to make sure anything that he or she changes will be balanced with every other weapon and how will enemies react to it, etc. I understand it takes a long time to balance a few weapons but I don't blame DE, I blame the community for not actually telling DE straight and simple and not fighting against each other over if something like shotguns needing buffs, which they so desperately do.

[Vance.Stubbs]

Game balancing is becoming a big issue. 

 

We now have so many frames, weapons, mods, sentinels, kubrows and archwings that balancing needs to be more than an afterthought after main content patches are done. 

 

Balancing needs to become a continuous thing, with items needing to be constantly assessed and reevaluated as new stuff comes out. 

 

Each new weapon relates to other weapons in effectiveness and unless the new equipment comes out perfectly balanced with everything else (near impossible task) then other things will need a lookin as time goes by. 

 

This guy gets it. Unlike polemics-lovers whose arguments are like "but they know it, they are working...... its beta....... b-but stuff can become op...."

[Arlayn]

New stuff has absolutely nothing to do with old stuff staying unbalanced (majority of which were bad since their release).

 

 

Ok, I was trying to take you seriously and wright a long response why I disagree with you, but I have a feeling it would be worthless. To me, you're another uneducated white-knight who doesn't even know what "OP" means. It seems to be a trend on Warframe forums, lots of clueless people using words like "OP", "P2W", "Powercreep" without even knowing what those things are.

because it is the truth... You havent seen the stuff I saw... I know what happens when our stuff is too strong...

 

Game balancing is becoming a big issue. 

 

We now have so many frames, weapons, mods, sentinels, kubrows and archwings that balancing needs to be more than an afterthought after main content patches are done. 

 

Balancing needs to become a continuous thing, with items needing to be constantly assessed and reevaluated as new stuff comes out. 

 

Each new weapon relates to other weapons in effectiveness and unless the new equipment comes out perfectly balanced with everything else (near impossible task) then other things will need a lookin as time goes by. 

they have been balancing heck check the latest update they balanced the new weapons added to the game. They do all sorts of balances through out the game in each update with balances, and there has been alot of those. HOWEVER I think the real question you should be asking is... "Are things as they should be?" Because DE has also stood its ground on some... unique choices in the past... Nothing against them on it, but just saying based on that example how do we know some of things your asking about are intended to be that way?

Edited December 2, 2014 by Arlayn

[Vance.Stubbs]

because it is the truth... You havent seen the stuff I saw... I know what happens when our stuff is too strong...

 

they have been balancing heck check the latest update they balanced the new weapons added to the game. They do all sorts of balances through out the game in each balance. HOWEVER I think the real question you should be asking is... "Are things as they should be?" Because DE has also stood its ground on some... unique choices in the past... Nothing against them on it, but just saying based on that example how do we know some of things your asking about are intended to be that way?

 

I play this game for almost two years (it will be two years in this Jan) and I remember stuff like 7 m puncture and 1200% damage mod combos. I never asked for it, if you can see.

 

What you say isn't "the truth". It's polemics and it brings absolutely nothing to the conversation. They do minor balance patches once in a few months, that's all. Nobody knows how exactly "things should be". It is a big question to community who tests the game and gives feedback. The problem is, the major part of that feedback constanly gets ignored. You can't deny the problems that really are here, we should help DE to fix the game and make it more fun and DE should listen to us.

[BerelHawdos]

If they just buff shotgun stats, the "feel of progression" will be kinda gone.

The feel of grinding fusion cores you mean.

[MDRLOz]

because it is the truth... You havent seen the stuff I saw... I know what happens when our stuff is too strong...

 

they have been balancing heck check the latest update they balanced the new weapons added to the game. They do all sorts of balances through out the game in each update with balances, and there has been alot of those. HOWEVER I think the real question you should be asking is... "Are things as they should be?" Because DE has also stood its ground on some... unique choices in the past... Nothing against them on it, but just saying based on that example how do we know some of things your asking about are intended to be that way?

 

Though I will agree we get some balance passes. E,g, launchers after update 14 and now heavy melee after 15, and just recently Rebecca said that we are getting a braton prime examination (HUZZAH!). 

 

However it is not enough with enough speed to work at the games pace. However those examples are all weapons. When was the last time you saw a sentinel get a pass? Lets say the Djinn which is either broken or running on a pointless mechanic. It has been in the game for errr guessing almost a year and now received an update.  

 

What about warframes which receive balance pass/ updates once in a blue moon. Then when the update does come it is often some quick changes and then forgotten. We could take some strong examples like ember but I will use Excalibur. Excalibur has had only one major overhaul/balance pass/look in since the release of the current mod system, apart from this he has remained the same with no buff or nerfs for over a year. He spent along time as an under powered frame decried as for new players only. Eventually DE announced they would look at updating the "poster boy".

 

Excalibur changes were announced in this thread: 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/321607-excalibur-and-you-a-guide-to-upcoming-changes/

The thread is ten pages long where enthusiastic and concerned players listed their concerns on the frame and suggested feedback. Primarily the lack of changes to slash dash. 

 

The Excalibur changes went live with no additional changes in update 15 on the 24th of October, they were exactly as the thread stated that it would with no attention given to the feedback.

 

Next the warframe feedback forum has had threads running since the update giving feedback on the update and recommending some changes. None of these have been heeded by DE. So when will Excalibur get another update? Maybe another year. I leave you with this feed back of threads on the issue as a example of how more changes/updates are needed but these changes will come along time after when the problem begins:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/230673-excalibur-20-post-u15-review-and-feedback/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/356248-ironclad-dash-excalibur-improvements/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/333745-discussion-of-excalibur-changes/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/336081-tell-me-why-excalibur-abilities-dont-scale-with-melee/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/333094-u15-excalibur-and-the-joke-we-call-super-jump/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/338112-excalibur-tweaks-suggestion-threadafter-u15/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/336703-is-it-just-me-or-has-directional-melee-made-excaliburs-super-jump-completely-redundant/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/337026-excalibur-and-mirage/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/343960-excalibur-is-almost-therejust-a-little-more/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/346205-excaliburs-super-jump-tweak-just-one-small-addition/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/346393-excalibur-buff-thread-he-needs-it/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/345852-so-i-main-excalibur-lets-have-a-chat/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/348882-maybe-we-can-have-this-on-excalibur-instead-of-super-jump/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/348338-excalibur-20/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/350271-excalibur-slash-dash-tweak/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/352966-excalibur-warframe-buffs-and-augment-mods/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/320061-excalibur-soon-to-come-nerf/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/328750-new-excalibur-changes-developer-workshop-thread-a-waste-of-time/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/330361-excalibur-changes-need-more-reworking/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/328956-excalibur-30/

Edited December 2, 2014 by MDRLOz

[Innocent_Flower]

1- I disagree with you on randomly allocating elemental damages to weapons. 

 

2- You're also missing out the part about Event mods being horribly, horribly, criminaly and unreasonably unballanced. Like seriously the new puncture ones are pretty much what the default puncture ones should have been. 

 

3- Enemies could really use a pass too. 

 

4- Weapons that are overpowered in comparison to their equaly difficult to obtain piers (boltor prime) 

[Vance.Stubbs]

1- I disagree with you on randomly allocating elemental damages to weapons. 

 

2- You're also missing out the part about Event mods being horribly, horribly, criminaly and unreasonably unballanced. Like seriously the new puncture ones are pretty much what the default puncture ones should have been. 

 

3- Enemies could really use a pass too. 

 

4- Weapons that are overpowered in comparison to their equaly difficult to obtain piers (boltor prime) 

 

1 - it's not me, those ideas are taken from multiple theads.

 

2 - doesn't affect the fact that old mods were bad and need a change.

 

3 - this is weapon feedback forum, watch where you post.

 

4 - what?

[Grievous10]

Reading this makes me somewhat sad as most of the weapons I use suffer from things that could be easily fixxed by just changing some numbers (Ammo for Glaxion & Gorgon buff)

I would like to see a Vaykor Gorgon to solve the problem of Gorgon and Gorgon Wraith by making it an incredibly powerful heavy machine gun with a huge clip size.

 

I also cant understand how it can be so hard to change the numbers of a few mods,

[Necr0Ra1se]

I love my gorgon wrath but with this ammo pool i can hardly coplete exterminate without ending empty. Let them buff ammo pull to 900 it's a machine gun after all.

 

I agree about ammo pools for full auto pistols they must be 400-500. This is the reason why i hate akzani. This garbege have 400 ammo pool this is not a feature of a weapon this is slap in my face. Why my Dps king Wrath vipers and syndicate Dual cestras has pathetic 210 this is the reason why full auto is so not popular. If they want let akzani have 800 ammo pool, other auto side arms weapons 400 and securo dual cestras 500.

 

Frozen for meele dmg is an old isues but even now with archwing it goes even further. You have 60% max frozen dmg on 11 rank mod but toxin dmg is 9rank with 120% of dmg! What kind of logic is that?

I want to see sythes a type of weapons that can deal red crits. This will be a eature of this tipe of weapons.

 

If there is team that works on weapons balancei can only say that they don't work properly.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Necr0Ra1se

[Guest]

Mostly because DE is still adding things, and still has not added the focus system, and still everything around your 11 things need to be balanced. More enemies are coming out... More tilesets... more bosses... more weapons... more warframes... more mods... there will always be more, more, and more...

if that really is the case... then i wish i had the programming skills so i can be hired by DE to be dedicated to balancing the game...

[zoboso]

if that really is the case... then i wish i had the programming skills so i can be hired by DE to be dedicated to balancing the game...

 

balance has many components, let me go over a couple.

 

Math is what we use to calculate effectiveness of a weapon when all else is equal, DE has a hard time Nerfing things so they usually tend toward creating cool but weak weapons that do not break things. 

 

balancing for skill is harder, and as warframe is a complicated game not only is there many skills a player might have, not all of those skills are equal. Skill at modding can turn an difficult challenge into a cakewalk, meanwhile navigation or aming skills may not provide as noticeable of a difference but those actions affect the balance of play as well.

 

in addition there is the distinction of being and feeling balanced, because that distinction complicates everything, for example a gun might be mathematically balanced with another gun but if one gun is believed to be better then any sort of traditional balance is moot.

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP

[Psychen]

I'm here since U7 and pretty much gave up on "balance". It has been beaten up -> bandaged -> beaten up again until it cried -> given an analgesic -> shoved into a dark room where it could barely see the light.

 

My biggest concerns with their balance:

-Weapon lock by mastery rank

-Market vs Clan tech weapon

-Materials in construction

-Constant stats changes

-Constant mod changes / new mods

-Weapon mods for the weapon in cause (eg. Glaive, Burston Prime, etc)

-Tier weapons (Prime, Wraith, Vandal, Dragon, and 6 new from the Syndicates)

 

---

I'll give you an example. I really like X weapon, but why would I spend a catalyst ,several forma and time when 1.Stats may (will) change; 2. A better version may come out; 3. A much better weapon will be released. Same applies for Warframes.

 

I understand potatoes and forma need to have drains, but very few things cause as much anger then changing / releasing a better version of said weapon / frame. Countless things came to mind. Also primed frames have benefits (stats & from void) but no downsides in any way comparing to regular frames, this suggest a straight upgrade. Please be clear and confirm so people aren't afraid of selling a potato'ed and ~4forma Nova's (Rhinos, Mag's, Soma's, and so forth).

 

[DE] Scott, I would suggest you to gather a taskforce team (if you haven't already) to analyse and develop a better system for weapon balance and release. People will get mad with changes but it'll be to a much lesser extent than constant changing it in a very unbalanced way (Synoid Gammacor). If you want, present to us (players) the system (taking in mind bullet points from concerns)  and explain why. I think this would avoid a lot of rage inside the community.

 

 

 

Edit: Polishing text / errors.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Psychen