No Glaive Blueprint? Fine, No Support From Me.

[Madotsuki]

 Read the thread. Now that they whole hype train crashing thing has blown over most of the people discussing it aren't even mad about it. Just disappointed and talking about how/why DE should avoid it in the future and what it was that made it so bad.

 

 Even rambling threads can eventually turn into constructive feedback.

Yeah i kinda didn't bother to read through 30+ pages of potential hate and flames. Still, if we're going for constructive feedback, wouldn't it be better to start a new topic instead of discussing it in a topic with a name equivalent to "No Glaive Blueprint? F U, A$$HOLES"?

[Blatantfool]

Yeah i kinda didn't bother to read through 30+ pages of potential hate and flames. Still, if we're going for constructive feedback, wouldn't it be better to start a new topic instead of discussing it in a topic with a name equivalent to "No Glaive Blueprint? F U, A$$HOLES"?

 

 Nah, no particular need for a new thread. There are already a flood of threads about this or similar topics. This is just the one big one about this topic. Conversations flows and this one, eventually, flowed in a more positive direction. Nobody, not even the OP or other angry posters, wants anything but what is best for Warframe because they enjoy it. When they feel something goes wrong it always seems catastrophic.

 

  It was a rough patch. Now that the angry/disappointment is clearing up people can proper talk, like the last good chunk of pages on this thread.

 

 DERebecca posted a few times earlier on and DE has long since mentioned they see the feedback and know people weren't happy. A fix will come about eventually. This is just a big collection of feedback about it.

[Lifeshield]

 Heh, fair enough. You should read a lot of the more recent stuff. Earlier in the thread is just people &!$$ed because the hype train derailed. Its calmed down a bit and people are talking more about why it made people made in the first place. A lot of the conversation has turned constructive rather then just rambling.

 

I'll be honest and say I noticed that after I had posted (I really am not up for reading 30+ pages at 1.30am), but just didn't feel like going back and editing it, mainly because it is still true to a degree. I know some people won't like to hear it, but you and I both know it is true regardless of how we may think about it personally. 

 

It really irks me that when a game is Free to Play that people can be so demanding about how a developer distributes new content that is available for free. It's not like they are forced to pay for it now, just that they have to wait for the chance to obtain it unless they want to pay for it. The lack of patience and degree of self entitlement is tiresome, and if I'm honest even a little ungrateful. 

 

And why shouldn't Digital Extremes try and get a little something out of it? They have worked their asses off to give us a great game, to keep delivering more content, that the majority of us love to play, and delivered pretty much the majority of it for free alongside working on other games.

[Blatantfool]

I'll be honest and say I noticed that after I had posted (I really am not up for reading 30+ pages at 1.30am), but just didn't feel like going back and editing it, mainly because it is still true to a degree. I know some people won't like to hear it, but you and I both know it is true regardless of how we may think about it personally. 

 

It really irks me that when a game is Free to Play that people can be so demanding about how a developer distributes new content that is available for free. It's not like they are forced to pay for it now, just that they have to wait for the chance to obtain it unless they want to pay for it. The lack of patience and degree of self entitlement is tiresome, and if I'm honest even a little ungrateful. 

 

And why shouldn't Digital Extremes try and get a little something out of it? They have worked their asses off to give us a great game, to keep delivering more content, that the majority of us love to play, and delivered pretty much the majority of it for free alongside working on other games.

 

 It really isn't unreasonable for a Customer to tell the Salesman 'This isn't right for me'. Especially if the relationship between the Customer and Salesman is the type DE typically tries to imply.

 

 Founder packs, design council, trying to keep up and acknowledge feedback. They go pretty far to try to let us feel like the feedback counts.

 

 So this all goes down and now that the dust has settled people are trying to state why they didn't like it better. People are trying to drop things like 'This is unfair' and trade them for 'I like it when you do X better'.

 

 And that is fine. DE can use that. Knowing what your customer is most comfortable with is cool.

 

 

 DE does a decent job stepping up and doing what needs to be done to make it work out, so you get people trying to reach out to make sure they hear what people think needs doing.

[Lifeshield]

They go pretty far to try to let us feel like the feedback counts.

 

They do, but there are definitely times when I seriously think people take that for granted. The issue isn't with people giving feedback, but in the manner that they apply it.

[Quetzhal]

It really irks me that when a game is Free to Play that people can be so demanding about how a developer distributes new content that is available for free. It's not like they are forced to pay for it now, just that they have to wait for the chance to obtain it unless they want to pay for it. The lack of patience and degree of self entitlement is tiresome, and if I'm honest even a little ungrateful. 

 

And why shouldn't Digital Extremes try and get a little something out of it? They have worked their asses off to give us a great game, to keep delivering more content, that the majority of us love to play, and delivered pretty much the majority of it for free alongside working on other games.

No, no, there's nothing wrong with a developer trying to get some profit. Unfortunately, the way in which this was performed (tons of forum hype, followed by a plat-only item) made it seem like DE was trying to milk profits from people. Note that I'm not saying they are, just that that's how a bunch of people are seeing it, particularly because of the disappointment of seeing the one weapon they were actually excited about break away from the usual credit blueprint pattern.

I'd like to request the word entitlement stop being used. It's thrown around far too much in these sorts of arguments, and ultimately doesn't mean anything. I dislike the way it was released, but I bought the Glaive. There's no entitlement involved, I just feel for the free players who can't.

Remember that free players are still important to the game. The sheer quantity of them in a popular game means that they're the ones that are recruiting the most new players, that they are the ones that can influence how the public views a game through word of mouth, that kind of thing. They keep the game alive by being the friends and players for the paying players to play with. It's because of that importance that I'm hesitant to even make the "paying vs free" distinction.

Finally, while rarity is all well and good, I do not feel that the alert system is a good way to release a new class of weapon. Alerts are too luck-based; they're great as a surprise for players with the artifacts and skins and the neat looking weapons that don't do anything new, and the helmets. A new weapon, though? Players should get it by effort, rather than simply being in the right place at the right time. You could argue that the alert system is flawed or that it simply needed to be released in a different way.

Hope that helps you understand the other point of view better.

I just woke up, so I need to read through 10 pages now. @@;

[JHarlequin]

However, I think it was an extremely poor choice to let the hype on the Glaive build up without being honest with us and telling us that it would be alert only.

 

 So, you are typing one thing and leaving something else untyped.  The primary meaning was, they should have stated it as, we are making a Glaive, and it will be introduced in the alert system or by platinum purchase.

 

 The untyped portion when comparing to most of the thread is that since it is a rare powerful unique weapon, it should be available for everyone at any time.

 

 There are many different ways this could have gone, but you have watched the live streams and seen how these developers work.  They get excited.  They wanted to tell everyone about the Glaive.  They didn't just laugh and say, "hey, we got a surprise coming up for you" and wait for the first alert to pop up with the Glaive as a reward.

 

 If you want it, be glad that they added the glaive.  Be glad that it isn't available alert only.  Hope that it isn't 2000+ rubedo and 2000+ alloy plate to build.  Understand that they aren't money grubbing, you just feel entitled to get what you want now.

Edited April 28, 2013 by JHarlequin

[Blatantfool]

They do, but there are definitely times when I seriously think people take that for granted. The issue isn't with people giving feedback, but in the manner that they apply it.

 

 I disagree. It is less taking it for granted and more not really understanding the best way to give really good feedback.

 

 Not all Betas are totally legitimate. You get Developers launching what is essentially finished products in beta and the game changes little unless an uproar starts. A lot of people are used to that kind of Beta test and it spoils things for them.

 

 

 I've been part of the beta of another game a long while now - it is called Firefall.

 

 That game has a stickied thread that is taken very seriously and was made early on by on the the Devs. 

 

 The topic is 'Hyperbole is the opposite of good feedback' - in that thread he explains the difference between what is truly useful to the Developers at Red5 and what you can be sure they'll ignore.

 

 I feel like DE could use a dose of that. Otherwise its cool.

[Quetzhal]

 So, you are typing one thing and leaving something else untyped.  The primary meaning was, they should have stated it as, we are making a Glaive, and it will be introduced in the alert system or by platinum purchase.

 

 The untyped portion when comparing to most of the thread is that since it is a rare powerful unique weapon, it should be available for everyone at any time.

 

 There are many different ways this could have gone, but you have watched the live streams and seen how these developers work.  They get excited.  They wanted to tell everyone about the Glaive.  They didn't just laugh and say, "hey, we got a surprise coming up for you" and wait for the first alert to pop up with the Glaive as a reward.

 

 If you want it, be glad that they added the glaive.  Be glad that it isn't available alert only.  Hope that it isn't 2000+ rubedo and 2000+ alloy plate to build.  Understand that they aren't money grubbing, you just feel entitled to get what you want now.

Sorry, but your argument is based on a false premise. I already have the Glaive. I bought it the moment the patch came out. I simply dislike the way they released it because I feel for the free players, not because I wanted it for free personally.

Man, I was waiting for someone to say that and assume too many things. Plus I wanted to throw "false premise" into a sentence somewhere. *grin* This is also one of the reasons "entitlement" should stop being thrown about as a word; it's used so often it borders on meaningless.

Anyway, if you continue to read the rest of the thread, I conceded a few points made by nullqasael. The underlining point is that they should not repeat this in the future, as it can alienate the F2P playerbase.

[KangHur]

Its like with every F2P game. You need to invest time or money. You have a lot of time to play then grind or pray to RNG gods if you don't have time then pay. I don't see anything bad about is as long as f2p player have reasonable chance to get this item for free/time consuming.

[Blatantfool]

Its like with every F2P game. You need to invest time or money. You have a lot of time to play then grind or pray to RNG gods if you don't have time then pay. I don't see anything bad about is as long as f2p player have reasonable chance to get this item for free/time consuming.

 

 It really isn't much of a time investment. I can just play other games while I wait for the BP to randomly pop. There is no work being put into the game, not really. Just waiting for the Alert.

[Quetzhal]

Its like with every F2P game. You need to invest time or money. You have a lot of time to play then grind or pray to RNG gods if you don't have time then pay. I don't see anything bad about is as long as f2p player have reasonable chance to get this item for free/time consuming.

You don't invest time in the alert system, you just check twitter every so often. If there was an actual effort-based system to achieve the blueprint separate from the alert system, I don't think people would be so upset.

In other words, investing time is fine, if you give the players the right way to invest their time. Right now, a player can forget about the game for weeks and log on when they see the Glaive on twitter - while a more dedicated player might play for every day of the week and miss the alert because he was asleep at the time.

[Ashmedai]

I think what a lot of people are trying to get across is that the glaive as it is now isn't exactly "hard to obtain through normal gameplay", but that currently it would only be rewarded by luck of the draw if you're not working or busy during the time the alert comes up. It's artificial difficulty instead of compelling and engaging difficulty.

 

You can't really say that someone is a skilled russian roulette player, and nobody can really say that it takes effort to obtain the glaive right now. You either win the item lottery or you pull out the trusty credit card and shell out a few bucks. Neither is really satisfying on a gameplay level and I think that this whole debacle just really shone light on why the current alert system is kind of crappy.

I do not really see the issue here. Either you grind alerts like you always do and hope for a good drop like you always do or spend some money to skip playing and get it right away. I people are complaining about playing a game for free and not being able to have the shiney toy they want right away. Pay money or invest time. Nuff said.

[KangHur]

 It really isn't much of a time investment. I can just play other games while I wait for the BP to randomly pop. There is no work being put into the game, not really. Just waiting for the Alert.

Still following alerts is time investments. But its true that overall geting blueprints should be much easier but geting materials for them should be big problems. I feel that problem is in boss fight and drops from them. And/or too low rare materials demands in blueprints.

[stupifY]

I dont remember reading or seeing a thread where the Devs initiated a thread and advertised/hyped about the glaive...give the search button a try and notice all the hype generated is by the community.

IMO getting the glaive is not gonna have any life changing effect on how you play the game.

This game is still a beta release and more content is expected in the future.

On second thought I wonder how many more people would be whining if the devs had released the glaive as an alert, only drop or a random chance drop of less than 5% of "X" boss in keeping the F2P spirit.

Peace.

Edited April 28, 2013 by stupifY

[TheTenthDoc]

I do not really see the issue here. Either you grind alerts like you always do and hope for a good drop like you always do or spend some money to skip playing and get it right away. I people are complaining about playing a game for free and not being able to have the shiney toy they want right away. Pay money or invest time. Nuff said.

 

You don't "grind alerts." You get lucky with alerts. There is no time investment at all unless you are incapable of using the warframe forums, twitter, or general chat ingame.

[JerryMouse13]

 Then I almost HAVE to have been misreading. I'm going to sweep back over your posts. Can you see why I've been so absolutely confused here?

 

 It'd figure the whole time I've misunderstood. Like I said, no big deal. I'll wrap around and check to make sure.

 

 Edit: It does seem like I had your point wrong. Consider that acknowledged.

 

 

 Well then, more in response to the point you where ACTUALLY trying to make, instead of the one I apparently though you where making.

 

 That is a problem that deserves fixing. Too many players seem to be sitting out and not playing in the mean time. The game needs a stronger base to justify actually sticking into it and playing Warframe. Like I said to Avenwing - I feel like the Glaive is not the cause of a problem or the symptom of a new one - it is just making a problem already established a little more obvious now that the hype train derailed and people want to address their disappointment.

 

 The Glaive dragged the fact that players want more to earn out into the light. DE needs to jump on that.

 

Thanks, It's very heartening to see someone willing to take the time to reveiw posts.

 

 

Additionaly, you also have a very good point for the more proactive earning of BPs. I'm not exactly a fan of the alert system myself but as long as I can earn it free I'm fairly apathetic towards the means in which it is obtained.

If the community as a body thinks that BPs should be be handled differently then by all means it should be changed, my opinon is not greater than that of the entire playerbase.

 

 

Much of my annoyance with the OP and this topic in general is that people seem to be acting like this is some sort of shocking violation of trust on DE's part when it's already an established trend with items such as the heat dagger, and the alt helms. I feel that most of those who are demanding the glaive BP be removed as an alert reward are simply doing it because it's something that they want.

 

If the system is a problem then the system as a whole needs to be addressed, as you've already stated. The fact that people are apparently wanting to make an exception solely for the glaive, just smacks of entitlement to me.

 

I'd like to apologize if i've allowed that annoyance to creep into our conversation.

[NoGONinja]

XP lock the blueprint to Rank 5. Problem solved.

 

(Or 10 if DE feels trolly)

 

Agreed

Lock newer, higher tier'd bp's items via rank

give this man some thumbs

[Pandemoniuhm]

People think different ways, and while your view on this subject is not wrong, I feel that cosmetics and convenience would not generate enough to support the game. This is debatable and solely my opinion. 

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't quite remember (and I asked this in another thread too), but wasn't the Paris plat only at first? 

Tell that to Riot Games. League of Legends has a cash shop where you cannot buy power and can only pay to save your time or get cosmetic things. They were worth over $40,000,000 in the fall of 2011. No idea how much they're worth now. And until very recently, they stuck to their guns.

 

The major problem is not the Glaive itself, but the precedent it sets. As the alert system stands it is hardly a viable means of getting a particular weapon. So they're saying "Hey guys, we're technically making it available to everyone, but this playstyle is really restricted to people willing to drop $10 on a single weapon". Many alerts spawn for credits only, and the ones that do have a ? are more likely to drop artifacts. The odds of the Glaive being in the alert -at all- are quite low, and then you have to allow for when the alert spawns which significantly limits your chance of getting the weapon. With the other weapons that are ? only, this is totally acceptable. For the most part they are simply skins with very little difference between them. For the very first throwing weapon, putting it into a completely random system with terrible odds is kind of a slap in the face. It'd have been ok if they had added another less cool, less anticipated weapon as the free and easy to get version. I've bought a bit of platinum and was considering a founders package, but now I think I will hold off. Depends on how they handle the backlash from this. But setting this sort of precedence for yourself before you're done with beta does not bode well for the game. You should focus on making great things and the playerbase will reward you for it, not using underhanded marketing tricks like making the most anticipated item the game has seen available mostly through cash or astronomical luck. Anyone remember PWI? Making the best stuff available through cash or astronomical odds killed that game.

[Blatantfool]

Thanks, It's very heartening to see someone willing to take the time to reveiw posts.

 

 

Additionaly, you also have a very good point for the more proactive earning of BPs. I'm not exactly a fan of the alert system myself but as long as I can earn it free I'm fairly apathetic towards the means in which it is obtained.

If the community as a body thinks that BPs should be be handled differently then by all means it should be changed, my opinon is not greater than that of the entire playerbase.

 

 

Much of my annoyance with the OP and this topic in general is that people seem to be acting like this is some sort of shocking violation of trust on DE's part when it's already an established trend with items such as the heat dagger, and the alt helms. I feel that most of those who are demanding the glaive BP be removed as an alert reward are simply doing it because it's something that they want.

 

If the system is a problem then the system as a whole needs to be addressed, as you've already stated. The fact that people are apparently wanting to make an exception solely for the glaive, just smacks of entitlement to me.

 

I'd like to apologize if i've allowed that annoyance to creep into our conversation.

 

 You've been perfectly reasonable, no worries. You had me absolutely puzzled when I had misunderstood but that was an error on my part.

 

 

 Earlier in the threads another poster brought up a really, really good point. In fact, multiple posters said it in one way or another.

 

 DE tends to generate a lot of hype when they announce/say anything - if DESteve came out tomorrow and says "Man I'd really love a weapon that shoots homing dildo missiles." the entire forum will explode with excitement about the kinky opportunities that would imply.

 

 DE is just being open, everyone likes that as far as I know, but the fans all love them some Warframe so without fail the hype train gets going every time something new is introduced or spoken of.

 

 

 But Hype is actually a fairly bad thing - because hype is a whole lot of short term excitement out of nowhere. All build up and no limit. It also tends to drive expectations up.

 

 

 So with that hype train lacking brakes the way it does it was bound to happen that eventually it'd have to turn a corner and bang, it derails. Disappointment is often met with frustration and worry - a ton of it - like we see early on this thread.

 

 

 So it is good to step back and try to take that reaction with a grain of salt. These people definitely care about the game - they took the time to post about this issue and try to express why it worries them - but the crash of the hype train isn't a pleasant thing. It was a rough patch for that reason.

 

 It has simmered down now, for the most part, and you get plenty of people - even people who where originally posting in an 'outrage' earlier in the thread - coming back and saying "Now that I've really though about it, I know what REALLY bothers me better. This is what I'm feeling now."

 

 

 I said it once, much earlier in the thread, the kneejerk reactions and craziness are bound to happen - but in the end it is a byproduct of people legitimately caring about the game and not being sure how to give feedback the quality they'd like.

[Gestalt]

I do not really see the issue here. Either you grind alerts like you always do and hope for a good drop like you always do or spend some money to skip playing and get it right away. I people are complaining about playing a game for free and not being able to have the shiney toy they want right away. Pay money or invest time. Nuff said.

 

Issue is that they're tying more items, newer items, more sought after items, to the alert system.

 

The alert system is broken and discouraging immersion in its current form.  We should be playing this awesome game where we are space ninjas with powers and guns.  We shouldn't be playing the social media game where we wait around doing other S#&$ to be notified of an alert with rewards we want and log on.

 

This is a fun game.  Super fun.  It should be enjoyed by everyone who finds the fast-paced action fun.  This should not be an exclusively loot-driven game, one with the sentiment from players: "I don't even log on anymore, except when an alert with stuff I want pops up."

 

That's not right.

 

Solution (at least to the current alert-reward system):  randomize alerts to give every player different rewards.  Then at least it feels like you're working towards something, even though the rewards are still RNG, players will feel like the more time and effort they put into it, the higher the chance of getting reward.  Right now, the system encourages sitting on your butt glued to the computer/phone NOT PLAYING WARFRAME and waiting.

[Ashmedai]

Issue is that they're tying more items, newer items, more sought after items, to the alert system.

 

The alert system is broken and discouraging immersion in its current form.  We should be playing this awesome game where we are space ninjas with powers and guns.  We shouldn't be playing the social media game where we wait around doing other S#&$ to be notified of an alert with rewards we want and log on.

 

This is a fun game.  Super fun.  It should be enjoyed by everyone who finds the fast-paced action fun.  This should not be an exclusively loot-driven game, one with the sentiment from players: "I don't even log on anymore, except when an alert with stuff I want pops up."

 

That's not right.

 

Solution (at least to the current alert-reward system):  randomize alerts to give every player different rewards.  Then at least it feels like you're working towards something, even though the rewards are still RNG, players will feel like the more time and effort they put into it, the higher the chance of getting reward.  Right now, the system encourages sitting on your butt glued to the computer/phone NOT PLAYING WARFRAME and waiting.

I don't see how that is true?

 

You mean to tell me that you would prefer to not play and watch twitter or something to let you know when alerts pop then just play and be told in game when they pop?

 

Odd that.

 

I understand people want easier access to brand new items but frankly I don't have any issue with what they have done.  Of course I spent hours and hours and HOURS praying to the RNG gods back in my EQ days so this kind of thing does not faze me I guess.

[Ageless_Emperion]

I legitimately care about the game, I put money into it, I support it as much as I can. I am saving the plat for things that are only not available for acquisition in game and those are few. When I saw the news of the glaive not having a BP I had a flash rage moment and then went, k, I am just going to get this while I play along with everything else I am looking forward to. My friend just bought it outright and taunted me with it for a bit, but since he has &!$$ poor luck with drops in games I can understand why he bought it. Since then we have both been laughing at the massive entitlement hardon people have had here in the forums. I am sure that all that needs to be said has been said already, but my two cents is that patience is by far one of the most worthile exp investments in life, it reduces your chance of failure for crafting happyness by so damn much. INVEST IN IT!

Edited April 28, 2013 by Ageless_Emperion

[Gigatron-Prime]

Thanks for letting us know how you feel!

That sounds like a sarcastic taunt...

[rhoenix]

That sounds like a sarcastic taunt...

 

No, that was professionalism at work.