[Collection] Glaive Debut Discussion Breakdown Thread

[nullCassielle]

Sorry for not fixing these things up as fast as I would have liked to guys! Work and sleep, you know. Off today so let's see if we can get the majority of this in before DE gets back in on Monday. Gonna wake up first then go through and throw this together properly.

[nullCassielle]

Debut was good and bad:

 

Good: Available for plat, and alerts. Alert weapons is already a great concept, this makes people go "yay" when they finally get it.

 

Bad: IIRC there have been little to no alerts since it's release containing its BP. IMHO there shoulda been a 6 hour alert (minimum time) for players to nab it, it would still be rarish after about a week or so. Also, plat price was pretty high. $10?! :/

 

This is a bit on the fence for my liking. It SOUNDS to me like basically you like the idea but hate the execution, which puts you roughly with Quetzhal, &c. Is that right? "Nothing wrong with what you were trying to do, but it just didnt work here" basically.

 

Of course I would put your specific criticisms in their own addendum.

 

This sound okay to you?

[nullCassielle]

My main concern is and has always been with the current alert system.  It's arbitrary and random and is in no way correlated to actual effort a player puts into the game.  Additionally, when the Glaive appears as an alert reward, it wouldn't even be rare anymore, as a large chunk of the playerbase would have gotten it, through no skill, effort or persistence on their part, just the ability to log on and play at the opportune time.  (this is basically Point#1 under Debut Is Bad)

  

 

Can you add my name to the above points?  I don't know if you want to keep the names exclusively "For" or "Against" (but not both), but I find Point#2 under "Debut Is Good" to be a reasonable compromise (though whether or not suggesting an entirely new method to obtain the glaive that's currently not planned should be considered "For" the debut is debatable).  

 

Thank you so much for taking the effort to organize a thread like this.

 

You make a really, really good point -- that addendum was a solution, and I overlooked it. I'll be yoinking that right out now, oops!

[nullCassielle]

Before i reply, please can we not make this a &!$$ing contest and start a rage war or replies, I think your thread is a good idea I'm just defending my post a little.

 

I did mention that the community hyped it up, they begged for it a lot in forums. But DE did hype it up, they let it slip in the livestream and created a post in the Design Council, which is full of most of the people who have played Dark Sector and therefore were the people begging for it. They were basically saying "you asked for it, here you go" without saying "also it's 10 bucks....". It was a smooth way of wetting the pallets of those who they knew would be desperate for the Glaive. They did not do this for either the Grakata or the Ankyros, just using these as they were the most recent weapons pre-glaive.

 

The reason my post sounded like it had conflicting view points is because i was looking at it from conflicting viewpoints. 

The first was from an objective business model, it was a good monetary move on DE's behalf, which I am fine with because A: I'm not going to buy the Glaive unless I get bored, I'll just wait for the alert. and B: gives DE a bit of income, giving us more development of the game.

The second was from the viewpoint of the free to play player who isn't an avid gamer and won't be living on the twitter feed. See I don't mind the alert system, most weapons in this game are usable and fairly similar once modded correctly and the weapons you get from the Alert system are like a nice treat. Something a bit different to play with, but that achieves the same end. The Glaive however is a completely new weapon, throwable melee SICK AS. If this was Alert only, fine, I'll deal with it and so will most people. The fact it was Alert AND plat but not blueprint is a little bit of a slap in the face for a lot of f2p players (please note, not my personal opinion I like what DE do and am not that fussed about the whole issue). I know we have some alert only weapons that are plat as well (heat dagger) but they aren't a new type of weapon that everyone will want to use.

 

So reviewing my summary i guess i would say that the Debut was bad, sorry for being a bit muddled in my first post. Played upon the hype, that the community created and DE added to, to generate some extra income without announcing that it could only be bought by plat or blind luck.

 

It seems to me that generally speaking then, you follow the lines of Quetzhal, et al. (You had a good idea, DE, but it doesn't work here because of community expectations.)

 

Is that right?

 

Any specific non-solution stuff you feel that Quetzhal's viewpoint misses I'll be happy to add to its own addendum, if you point it out.

[nullCassielle]

Ageless_Emperion - Debut is Good

 

The release for the glaive has been decent so far, I think that it should have been an alert only reward, but I am well aware of the financial reasons why it is purchasable with platinum. The majority of the games' contents are available to players through play and not even intensive play at that and some items need to be introduced into the shop that are enticing enough to produce revenue for it. It should not be the case with every weapon and it has not been, in addition if all items are available in the shop for purchase with in game money this will only serve to stunt the development of the game as there will not be any reason for people to invest money into it. Loyal players aside this will ruin the game over time, like it or not there is no such thing as a "free" game.

 

The weapon itself is iconic and has roots with the material from which warframe came to be, it is unmistakably cool. As a result of this it can be a status symbol for either those who pay for it and support further game development or those who get lucky and find it in an alert. It does not change the way combat works for melee. I have seen the weapon used against the infected and I can say that I can do the same or better with other melee weapons because I will not waste time with having to climb things and pick things off with it. Its refreshing and interesting, but that is the extent to which it deviates from other weapons. It is not essential and it should bear the same status and other alert weapon drops.

 

More weapons of this type should be created and made available in the shop for in game money which will give people access to these mechanics. However, the best looking gear should recieve the same treatment as this item otherwise this game will be starved. We all want to play with the shiny stuff, but if we get it without supporting the game at all then we won't have a game to play after a while.

 

Overall I can't complain about how the weapon was unveiled, I was dissapointed at first, but that quickly faded because I am here to enjoy the game over hopefully a lengthy development lifetime and I am not worried that one of the things I want in it is not within my grasp right now. Adopting that mentality helps deal with the dissapointment after the hype buildup of the release.

 

Ok, this is really long and I think it straddles the fence a little bit. Not sure though, so let's break this down...

 

Actually, I was wrong. This is very clear. It looks like basically you just plain agree with Tyrian3k's viewpoint in the main post. Sound right?

[nullCassielle]

Debut was poorly marketed and executed.

 

People should never, ever, ever be posting on the forums "why isn't this blueprint in the shop" when an item is introduced to the game. That represents a phenomenal error in communication to the players. DE needs to make it clear from the get-go in the future (and also from the patch notes!).

 

This sounds robust enough to be its own standalone statement.

 

I'm also somewhat disconcerted because it doesn't really bode well for the future. I can now believe DE would actually make a frame whose parts only drop from ? alerts that can be buyable with plat, justifying it with "this warframe is super rare!" Banshee is annoying enough, but at least increased work effort by running missions increases your probability of obtaining the frame without plat. It's not dumb luck, it's RNG that you can run any number of times. Alert missions are pure, dumb luck.

 

This sounds like a rephrasing of Blatantfool/Story4's viewpoint. Like, I personally can't interpret it any other way.

 

Because you do have your own standalone statement I want to kick that stuff to the main post before I forget. So if you have an issue with my interpretation, PM me and we'll get it sorted.

[TinFoilMkIV]

you skipped over my post D=

 

 

 

I know it happens, just wanted to make sure it gets counted in the OP for whatever its worth.

[CaligoIllioneus]

Also I just wanted to point out that the Paris is not in the same classification of the glaive, the description said it was "based off one of the oldest weapon designs", not that the Paris itself is an old weapon.

 

The one in the same category would be the Mire, which is stated to be a relic.

[Brasten]

If I could add an additional point to the "bad" column

Short: New weapon categories need a lesser/variant in the Market as an option. What if the Paris (first and only silent ranged weapon) had been handled like the Glaive (first and only throwable weapon)? This is not about Fluff/Lore reasons, this is about new mechanics.

Since the Glaive is a big popular item it got more attention, but there is an underlying problem with this realse that will be equally as bad with less "cool-factor" weapons. The Glaive is a new weapon category, Throwable, and it is the only one of its category. Currently you can't get weapons of the other categories in the Market. Variants and "rares" are also present as Alert only or Alert+Platinum. The Dark Sword and Dagger and examples of the former. These are only available in the in Alerts, but they are not the only sword and dagger in the game. They also aren't notably more powerful then existing weapons in their categories. Weapon/Helmet skins are an example of the latter, being avalibile in the shop for Platinum and in Alerts as Blueprints. These are variations on existing weapons/frames that already exist. When skins were introduced there wasn't anywhere near the level upsetness that has happened over he Glaive, because there were other options, and they were optional.

None of this applies to the Glaive release. It is the first and only throwable weapon. If you want a throwable weapon you either have to buy it with Platinum or get lucky with random number gentation on an Alert (which has not happend as of this post). There isn't an "basic" boomerang player can get an use while waiting around for a Glaive alert, or build with credits while deciding if they really want to drop Platinum on a new mechanic. Adding a slightly worse boomerang to the market would have instantly changed the nature of the discussion. If the Glaive had been a skin of a Market boomerang there would have been very little issue of it dropping form Alerts.

Now let's change the perspective a little, from the hyper popular Glaive to a hypthoical Spear/Polearm. As a new catagory of a long reach weapon (with blind spot in close) it doesn't have any other weapons of its type. It is then released like the Glaive was, Platinum in market, Alert blueprint drop. This would be just as bad a release. A new weapon/fighting catagory is only Platinum or random numbers drop.

This is the real root problem with the Glaive release. A new fighting mechanic that doesnt have Market obtainable lesser/variant to explore.

Briefly lets consider an already released example, the Paris Bow. The only Bow and Silent ranged weapon. New mechanics both. If this had been placed into the Alert Pool the way the Glaive was, we would have seen an equal negative reaction.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Brasten

[nullCassielle]

you skipped over my post D=

 

 

 

I know it happens, just wanted to make sure it gets counted in the OP for whatever its worth.

 

I didn't skip your post, I just did exactly what you asked me to. ;) I don't reply if it's straightforward enough to not require one.

 

If I could add an additional point to the "bad" column

Short: New weapon categories need a lesser/variant in the Market as an option. What if the Paris (first and only silent ranged weapon) had been handled like the Glaive (first and only throwable weapon)? This is not about Fluff/Lore reasons, this is about new mechanics.

Since the Glaive is a big popular item it got more attention, but there is an underlying problem with this realse that will be equally as bad with less "cool-factor" weapons. The Glaive is a new weapon category, Throwable, and it is the only one of its category. Currently you can't get weapons of the other categories in the Market. Variants and "rares" are also present as Alert only or Alert+Platinum. The Dark Sword and Dagger and examples of the former. These are only available in the in Alerts, but they are not the only sword and dagger in the game. They also aren't notably more powerful then existing weapons in their categories. Weapon/Helmet skins are an example of the latter, being avalibile in the shop for Platinum and in Alerts as Blueprints. These are variations on existing weapons/frames that already exist. When skins were introduced there wasn't anywhere near the level upsetness that has happened over he Glaive, because there were other options, and they were optional.

None of this applies to the Glaive release. It is the first and only throwable weapon. If you want a throwable weapon you either have to buy it with Platinum or get lucky with random number gentation on an Alert (which has not happend as of this post). There isn't an "basic" boomerang player can get an use while waiting around for a Glaive alert, or build with credits while deciding if they really want to drop Platinum on a new mechanic. Adding a slightly worse boomerang to the market would have instantly changed the nature of the discussion. If the Glaive had been a skin of a Market boomerang there would have been very little issue of it dropping form Alerts.

Now let's change the perspective a little, from the hyper popular Glaive to a hypthoical Spear/Polearm. As a new catagory of a long reach weapon (with blind spot in close) it doesn't have any other weapons of its type. It is then released like the Glaive was, Platinum in market, Alert blueprint drop. This would be just as bad a release. A new weapon/fighting catagory is only Platinum or random numbers drop.

This is the real root problem with the Glaive release. A new fighting mechanic that doesnt have Market obtainable lesser/variant to explore.

Briefly lets consider an already released example, the Paris Bow. The only Bow and Silent ranged weapon. New mechanics both. If this had been placed into the Alert Pool the way the Glaive was, we would have seen an equal negative reaction.

 

Brasten, it looks like in general you agree with Quetzhal's viewpoint in the main post -- is that right?

Edited April 28, 2013 by nullqasael

[Gestalt]

Brasten, it looks like in general you agree with Quetzhal's viewpoint in the main post -- is that right?

 

The main thing I took away from Brasten's post is that there should be more variations of "weapons with new mechanics" available (like Glaive and Paris), with some versions of each being platinum only and others freely craftable.  Though personally I would extend this to all weapons, not just the rare few that use unique mechanics.

 

I feel like DE isn't capitalizing on "selling the look" enough as we currently stand.  Like Brasten said, we already have many melee weapon skins that can be purchased with plat or ?-alert, but since they are an option, and a largely cosmetic one at that, very few people take objection to this.  If they put a blueprint of a more generic-looking boomerang (not completely fugly, but distinctively less-awesome then the current glaive) on the market for credit, and only allow the "Dark Sector" glaive to be a skin you buy with plat/?-alert, people would find it much, much more reasonable, and most of us would completely support it I feel.

 

======================Additional commentary below this line / Off-topic============================================

 

(This might be going way off topic) I would like to add that it's understandable for DE to not come out with a ton of skins for each warframe/weapon, since doing detailed 3D models takes time and resources, but I do believe the modelers should keep multiple version of any given weapon around, since creating something new is never done in one go.  DE should polish these "models that didn't make the cut" a bit and offer them as cosmetic changes for plat only (or also ?-alerts); offer them cheap like 10 plat each, and people will gladly pay for them.  Remember the key to microtransactions is to keep the price low enough so people would impulse buy (this is also Apple's philosophy for their upcoming iRadio, which they aim to price each song super cheap to encourage the same consumer behavior).  

 

Also, didn't realize you've put your own stance up in the OP as well.  Thanks again null for remaining impartial and try to consolidate this clusterscrew of forum back-and-forth into a manageable read for DE.  I agree with your point of keeping the glaive (the actual one; everyone can have the plainer boomerang) relatively rare and that DE needs a sustainable way to sell platinum.  I just think there are slightly better ways to make a compromise in this regard.

[Ageless_Emperion]

Ok, this is really long and I think it straddles the fence a little bit. Not sure though, so let's break this down...

 

Actually, I was wrong. This is very clear. It looks like basically you just plain agree with Tyrian3k's viewpoint in the main post. Sound right?

 

Pretty much, another point I was trying to make clear is that its not gamechanging, its just different from other melee items and different doesn't make it special.

[Mr.Mango]

I'd say the Debut was bad.

 

The Glaive is an iconic weapon, it is something special. Maybe not for the 'mass' of Warframe Players, but for me it is. It is not a buyable skin with +/- or anything like that. It is the first weapon of it's category and for Dark Sector fans something like the number "117" for Halo fans.

 

I think, what would've solved the problem very easy, is introducing this weapon as a 'Disk', well ,a sharp disc. Then you can buy a Reskin/rename that turns it into the Glaive. This Skin is available through Platinum or a..."Reward" (maybe?) for hitting, for example, rank 10.

Nobody would have complained about that, it is work to get there but those who want to skip it and want the reskin now, can just buy it. It is a fair way of making sure that people who really, really want that skin can skip the leveling while the F2P-Players have to wait and put some efford in it and they'll get their reward. 

But a reskin is not giving any advantages or disadvantages, it just adds a nostalgic factor to it.

 

Now, we have the first weapon that is from release on buyable for Platinum and available through "?" alerts. To be honest, Im doing every day after I come back from the university 1 thing, open Steam and my Browser and just keep twitter in there and then I go and do something else. I can stop playing the game for a month, and if after this month, the Glaive BP appears, I can just log in and make a quick solo rush.

Tada - Glaive is mine with 0 efford.

 

The Alert system does need work, but I want to make 1 point clear, they should never, ever, mix up the "?" alert weapons with the cash shop, in my opinion.

 

But what was the biggest mistake (again, in my opinion) was that they introduced this 'new' system, that you can skip the RNG-roulette and just buy it, with 'this' weapon.

That was a huge mistake and is something they really should've thought about. The weapon was super hyped (Yes, I know, it might  was not intended by them, but thats how it works.) and people where excited for it, farming res and putting "efford" into getting the weapon. Of course there are people with 50k alloy and millions of credits who can get the weapon instant, but these are also the ones that want the manual reset, so it is not to blame on the Players, that a lot of people just craft every new weapon straight away. Still, most of them still have to farm for the materials.

 

Like pre-posters already said, if they would've released more information about this may could've been less "shocking".

 

Honestly, I think that the way we get "?" alert weapons needs a lot of work, I do not feel special for having all "?" alert weapons and I would not feel special if I would get the Glaive because I know exactly that 100 other people just got exactly the same because they were luckily enough to be online when the RNG-roulette said "Yes to the Glaive!".

[nullCassielle]

I'd say the Debut was bad.

 

The Glaive is an iconic weapon, it is something special. Maybe not for the 'mass' of Warframe Players, but for me it is. It is not a buyable skin with +/- or anything like that. It is the first weapon of it's category and for Dark Sector fans something like the number "117" for Halo fans.

 

I think, what would've solved the problem very easy, is introducing this weapon as a 'Disk', well ,a sharp disc. Then you can buy a Reskin/rename that turns it into the Glaive. This Skin is available through Platinum or a..."Reward" (maybe?) for hitting, for example, rank 10.

Nobody would have complained about that, it is work to get there but those who want to skip it and want the reskin now, can just buy it. It is a fair way of making sure that people who really, really want that skin can skip the leveling while the F2P-Players have to wait and put some efford in it and they'll get their reward. 

But a reskin is not giving any advantages or disadvantages, it just adds a nostalgic factor to it.

 

Now, we have the first weapon that is from release on buyable for Platinum and available through "?" alerts. To be honest, Im doing every day after I come back from the university 1 thing, open Steam and my Browser and just keep twitter in there and then I go and do something else. I can stop playing the game for a month, and if after this month, the Glaive BP appears, I can just log in and make a quick solo rush.

Tada - Glaive is mine with 0 efford.

 

The Alert system does need work, but I want to make 1 point clear, they should never, ever, mix up the "?" alert weapons with the cash shop, in my opinion.

 

But what was the biggest mistake (again, in my opinion) was that they introduced this 'new' system, that you can skip the RNG-roulette and just buy it, with 'this' weapon.

That was a huge mistake and is something they really should've thought about. The weapon was super hyped (Yes, I know, it might  was not intended by them, but thats how it works.) and people where excited for it, farming res and putting "efford" into getting the weapon. Of course there are people with 50k alloy and millions of credits who can get the weapon instant, but these are also the ones that want the manual reset, so it is not to blame on the Players, that a lot of people just craft every new weapon straight away. Still, most of them still have to farm for the materials.

 

Like pre-posters already said, if they would've released more information about this may could've been less "shocking".

 

Honestly, I think that the way we get "?" alert weapons needs a lot of work, I do not feel special for having all "?" alert weapons and I would not feel special if I would get the Glaive because I know exactly that 100 other people just got exactly the same because they were luckily enough to be online when the RNG-roulette said "Yes to the Glaive!".

 

Seems to me you're agreeing with CaligoIllioneus, Shion963, Gestalt so I'm going to put your name in both places theirs are. I'd give you a chance to respond but work and sleep has me on the wire now and I need to collect as much information as I can.

 

EDIT: I intend to send this to the appropriate people in the next two to three hours. So I can no longer wait on user responses.

Edited April 29, 2013 by nullqasael

[ectoplex]

The Glaive's debut is bad.

 

CaligoIllioneus, Shion963, Gestalt, Mr.Mango - Glaive was a highly wanted weapon. It should be rare to highlight its worth. Alerts are rare. Alerts, however, are based on dumb luck, on being online at the right 30-45 minutes. Alerts are not challenging, and are not a goal you strive for. You don't do anything, you just have to be online when they appear to basically be freely given the item. You don't actually earn the item. Thus the Glaive needs to be rare in another way.

Blatantfool, Story4, TheTenthDoc, TinFoilMkIV - The Glaive release was poor, but not because of the Glaive. Previous Tenno Reinforcement patches introduced weapons in a smoother, fairer fashion. One that meant you could make a real goal out of a weapon. You play to get anything new or you pay to have it right away. The BluePrint being tied to Alerts doesn't present this. Instead it cares none if you play a lot or not at all. Only that you are there when the RNG says its time. You can't truly make a goal out of RNG and this takes from the game and the player.

 

 

I agree with both of these statements and to elaborate on how to make the Glaive rare but in a more fairer way - I think if the BP was made available to buy in the market and then a rank cap of 3 or 4 was applied to it - players would have to play the game in order to use it, just like Gorgon and HEK.

 

The Glaive's rarity cannot be dependant on a RNG, that is just silly.

Edited April 29, 2013 by xhris

[V0LK]

So, basically, all "platinum only is good" responces are based on one word in the Glaive description - rare. If EVERY next weapon and frame will have this magic word in it's description - it should be platinum only?

 

As for it's good from the financial standpoint - I don't see how a simple weapon could change my mind about buying platinum. I spent 10 bucks but after U7 and all the nerfs I don't see myself doing it again. I'd definately spend more if DE just let me have fun with OP weapons or bring more customisation options and changes disign direction from anime to Sci-Fi.

 

Look, as of now I maxed up all the frames and weapons I liked and got bored. If I had Glaive, or it would be available from random mission rewards, I'd buy a new slot, pick my Loki from the foundry and start leveling them up. Or run missions, hoping to get a BP. Now I play different game and just monitoring the twitter notifications.

 

Debut was bad, I guess.

Pardon my English.

[TinFoilMkIV]

I didn't skip your post, I just did exactly what you asked me to. ;) I don't reply if it's straightforward enough to not require one.

Ah, seems to have been a cache issue, showing an outdated version of the first page of the thread,  in that case that was my bad, just didn't want to get skipped over.

 

EDIT: seems like you may have missed my vote for the second 'good' point by Tyrian3k

Edited April 29, 2013 by TinFoilMkIV

[nullCassielle]

Ah, seems to have been a cache issue, showing an outdated version of the first page of the thread,  in that case that was my bad, just didn't want to get skipped over.

 

EDIT: seems like you may have missed my vote for the second 'good' point by Tyrian3k

 

No, I just can't straddle the fence here and it's very clear that you dislike the way this is handled. Given the data I sent to Rebecca, I think you'd rather not get accidentally counted in the wrong group -- especially since you'll stand out more in a smaller group, they might overlook your name being in the appropriate one or think that it's a mistake on my part.

 

Part of my goal was to make it EASY on the developers, even if I had to fudge a bit here and there. That means the full color of people's opinions had to be removed and a bit of stuff that I felt was unclear ended up being paraphrased (again) before sending. This happened on multiple levels, including respondents to a private mini-survey I sent out (only 7 of 13 responded in time and I wasn't able to send it to 26+ others) and gathering the opinions of nonresponders (anyone who didn't state a clear position before page 20 or so of the main thread was essentially skipped so I could get the data out in time).

 

You are not the only one who was affected -- look through the thread, I'm sure there's a couple of those names who are a bit upset I butchered their opinions the way I did -- but the important part isn't those details, not at this stage. It's the broad sense of what people are saying, so they can figure out how to please the most people. I tried my damnedest to make sure I kept it as true to the core of the original statements as possible, but losses of the nuances were inevitable and necessary.

[TinFoilMkIV]

That's fine with me, hence why I said "may have" above, wasn't entirely sure how you were going about it with people that may agree with points on both side. You might want to clarify that in the opening post, although it is likely not necessary.

 

I have no problem with how you're handling this thread, just want to contribute to good constructive feedback when I can.