Pvp In This Game Is So Bad, Like, It's Really, Really Bad. So Bad, In Fact, That I Needed To Say It Is Bad Twice In This Title

[Auramaru]

Disclaimer: I understand that this is a PVE game and that PVE comes first, but this is the "PVP Feedback" section of the forums, and this thread is what we call "PVP Feedback".  It is okay to disagree with the feedback in this thread, but it is not okay to discredit feedback simply because you dislike the subject matter. This being said, follow the PSA guidelines for PVP Feedback and don't be a dits ^_^

 

Disclaimer #2: Yes, this is a long freaking thread, but it's a good read, I promise.

 

Disclaimer #3: So much sarcasm, there's a lot of it.

 

Before someone complains about the title of this thread, no.  I legitimately think that the PVP in Warframe is terrible.  Like, I have seen "bad" games before, and I have seen "buggy" games before, and I have seen "imbalanced" games before.  But this one takes the cake.

 

I play Conclave hours each day and I play Dark Sector PVP at least once a day and depending on the company I might enjoy myself... However, the game modes for PVP in Warframe are so. freaking. bad. in so. many. ways. ... I thought I ought to break it down a bit and really be as blunt and direct about this topic as is required for the NON-EXISTANT Warframe PVP Development Team.

___________________________________________________________________________

 

Let's start with Conclave for a moment.

Conclaves were first introduced in Update 10 along with Nekros and have had a great number of tweaks and massive bugs throughout their existence.  And when I say "bugs", I mean lots... loads... ... like, MOUNTAINS of bugs... 

 

The time of the conclaves introduction was an awkward time in the game's history as people, like now, sought an "endgame" experience, whereas DE was not yet capable of introducing such a system without forsaking attention in other areas of the game, the universally popular PVE side of the game included.

 

It is with this in mind that we begin to see what happened: DE did not have the time to make a whole, well-rounded, well-thought-out PVP system, so they half-assed it and through it into the Warframe Universe, only to let it get shredded, burned and scorched by the absurd amount of bug abuse players were now capable of.  Sure, Warframes made sense in a horde mode against AI... but pitting actual players against actual players, it was like a game of chess... except it was a game of "Who can flip the table over the fastest and set it on fire."  It's no surprise that very few people enjoyed the game mode, but there were many who settled into it.

 

So over time (and I'm skipping a LOT of time here), a Conclave Community formed and people still play the game type to this day.  Players found ways to deal with "OP tactics" with basic parkour and managed to escape the mess of warframe abilities by simply killing with single-shot, one-shot weapons.  The meta took shape and solidified: semi-auto rifles and snipers became the timeless standard for PVP, as it was seen as more skilled than spamming abilities and took more patience to master because targets were generally wall-running or copterring.

 

Somehow, newbies - most likely the ones who spammed abilities - got DE to NERF all damage.  That's right.  

-All damage dealt to shields reduced to 50%

-All damage dealt to health reduced to 25%

 

So let's think about it this way: there's a player, we'll call him player "A", who has a Vectis that deals 20k per shot.  Then there is a player, we'll call him player "B", who has a Vectis that deals 10k per shot.

 

Player B keeps dying to Player A's Vectis (which is obviously better-modded and has more forma), so Player B complains about getting one-shot... DE says, "Okay Player B, we see you're having trouble with getting one-shot, so we'll reduce all damage to 1/6 of what it was before, sound fair?"  

 

Player B is ecstatic! "Yes, finally, justice!"  The nerf to damage comes in, and now Player A deals 3.3k and Player B deals 1.6k... "No! He still deals more damage than me, this isn't far, what the hell? Screw Conclave!"

 

And so all the people who THOUGHT they were being put on an even playing field learned how to math and figured out that NO MATTER HOW DE REDUCES PERCENT DAMAGE, THEY WILL ALWAYS DO HALF THE DAMAGE OF THE REGULARS.

 

...

Let's talk about bugs though. 

 

Surely, after FIVE updates, Conclave is bug-free, right? ... right...? .... .....

 

There is a fairly logical procedure in which these bugs began to stock-pile in Conclave.  So DE, to begin with, put very little effort - COMPARATIVELY - into Conclave.  So as they keep releasing new content, they continue this trend of putting very little effort into Conclave.  This would be fine if: A) Conclave wasn't released to tons of bugs B) Conclave didn't exponentially increase in the amount of bugs as the game got more updates.

 

The worst Update for Conclaves of all of them was Update 14.  God, it was like the equivalent of the "Red Wedding" in GoT or "Bloody Sunday" in TPP...  Everyone was looking forward to the new Liset and the new Warframe and the new Dark Sector PVP, but Holy RNGeesus were we wrong.  It was like the freakin apocalypse of BUGaggedon.  Bugs on the liset, bugs on each warframe, bugs in Dark Sectors, bugs in Conclave.  It was a catastrophe (for a long while anyway).

 

As things got sorted out, "You know, Update 14 stuff isn't working, I think I'll play some Conclave until this all blows over.... Wait... Why is my Warframe unranked? My weapons too? What the hell? And what's with the gravity? I can't wall-run...? WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPENING?!?" 

 

...

It took two weeks for them to fix the unranked bug and the crashes, but the wall-slingshot-run nerf was here to stay and so were a whole boat-load of bugs, all minor of  course, but just enough to force players to have to Alt-F4.  Think I'm joking? Let's list a few:

-Ice bug (look it up, it's a thing)

-UI bug (this was an issue BEFORE U14)

-Crashes (Been a Data Leak or some crap since U15.2ish)

-Viral Bug (Oh, you thought you were alive, NOPE.)

-Melee stagger ("You know, I didn't like moving anyway.")

-Dead-man-walking (All conclavers know how to run around while bleeding out)

... That's a short list of the S#&$ we deal with EACH. TIME. WE. PLAY.

 

That doesn't even scratch the surface on imbalance issues... Let's take Limbo, just for example.  We have a Warframe that is untargeteable... and can choose when to attack you (chooses when to send you to the rift and kill you).

[The only counter play to this is to wait it out or steal the energy and use an aoe ability until it kills him, and may I remind you: damage nerf].

 

Certain mods have been written and documented on the "PVP Feedback" section of the forum as "OP, please nerf" SINCE CONCLAVE'S RELEASE.  It's funny because you would think that after enough feedback asking for a mod (Relfex Guard) to be removed or nerfed and DE would think, "Oh, it is unanimous feedback, no one likes this mod in Conclave, we should remove it from the PVP setting.", but you have to keep in mind: the official Warframe PVP Development Team DOES NOT, in fact, EXIST.

 

Guns? Oh you don't need to worry about guns anymore! You have five one-shot weapons to choose from! ... What, you don't like the choices? Then get out, noob! (I am simply pointing out how the damage nerf simply limited the weapon choice, that is all).

 

So there we have it: Conclave is bugged, imbalanced, and bad.  DE put very little time or effort into the gamemode and contrary to popular belief, it is not the players' faults that you get one-shot and have a bad time waiting for the next round... DE just never added a Team Deathmatch (multi-respawn) game mode.  You don't like hardcore, single-life rounds? "Then get out, noob!"

 

Now, Now we get to talk about Dark Sectors, which are a surprising step up from conclaves in only one way: Dark Sector PVP has no bugs, only intentionally-coded bullS#&$.

With the release of Dark Sector PVP, there was a similar problem involved as with the release of Conclaves: Warframe abilities ran rampant.  I want to put this thought in your mind: full damage, infinite energy, 4v4, 20 lives.  ... Chaos.

 

It is interesting because people spent quite some time trying to figure out how best to "Flip the chess table and burn it to ashes." as quickly as they could.  How can we abuse the game's mechanics and make the other team suffer?

 

All too quickly did people pull out Reflex Guard, Quick Thinking, etc.... If you defended, you were getting camped at your spawn, If you attacked, you would get crushed and/or disconnected from the host.

 

There were so many, SO MANY, hotfixes, nerfs, and changes.  It was this sort of enthusiasm and haste with fixes that the Conclaves lacked, and that is simply because player's credits and resources were on the line.

 

This game mode mattered.  It actually did, I'm not even being sarcastic.  DE knew that this F***-up wouldn't slide, not with behemoth-alliances getting involved. So they fixed S#&$. They resolved all the issues in conclave by simply making players respawn, by making players start at level 0 and become OP over time, they made it seem like there was balance.  But any Ash with a Relfex Guard and Bladestorm knew different.

 

After limiting energy and putting the game mode in a state that disallowed players to abuse mechanics to their fullest extent (until rank 30), we finally got Dark Sector PVP.  I have to admit that it's somewhat enjoyable, a nice change of pace: except NOW it doesn't matter.

 

The ICE, V, Orion, Synergy, Lords of the Yeast, super-mega-alliance-of-happy-friends-of-ultimate-evil-doing was allowed to rail-block for one another, effectively controlling the entire solar chart without using a single @(*()$ credit, no  battle-pay for you, dear warrior.  You finally got your perfect - still unbalanced - PVP gamemode (in which you can still spawn-camp), but it's controlled by the biggest A******s you thought you'd never have to deal with.  No credits rewards, and no point in playing, so no one plays it, so there's no competition.

 

That's Dark Sector PVP in a nutshell, 

So I have to ask you, DE... what's your next move?  Gonna come up with a PVE endgame, or will you finally revisit PVP... because this is trash.  You sort of got somewhere with Dark Sector PVP, but it all flopped when you didn't do anything to prevent multiple alliances from abusing the system in coordination with each other.

 

A single solution for it all? There is none.  I'd say it is too late, but it isn't.  You made something like 74 million off of a recent deal, and you could hire a small team of design/game developers to take the feedback in the PVP section and make something of it.  Because right now, Warframe PVP is terrible, Warframe PVP is bad, and it needs a development team to actually think about how to fix the problems within and how to apply each warframe into the PVP meta, whether buffs or nerfs are needed... Just give it some attention dammit...

 

You're really gonna leave a part of the game that you made, in this S#&$ty state? I thought with the liset, with player hubs, with all these big updates and amazing new things - that we once thought impossible - that maybe there would be a change in this neck of the woods...

 

Don't let your players down DE, just don't let your players down.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Azramoto

[Renegade343]

For one thing, I probably would not call the PVP team "non-existent", but more like, "taking their (very) good old time". 

 

Anyways, a semi-major update focused more on PVP would be nice. At least I would actually have fun in Dark Sectors PVP, other than just watching yet another cutscene of me being stabbed in various places. 

[VKhaun]

DE does not balance often enough or aggressively enough for me to ever consider this a PvP game. If it weren't for forum threads about it, I would quickly forget that we have it at all.

[Deruser]

Well, it's really true. PVP is bad, really bad. They need to balance the Warframe abilities, or here's an idea, make new abilities for PVP. A different skillset for PVP and PVE. But that would take forever, so let's just leave it in this state.

[Auramaru]

Well, it's really true. PVP is bad, really bad. They need to balance the Warframe abilities, or here's an idea, make new abilities for PVP. A different skillset for PVP and PVE. But that would take forever, so let's just leave it in this state.

I mean, they did it for archwing, new skills for different archwings... so why not for PVP... for 20 warframes x_x

[Renegade343]

I mean, they did it for archwing, new skills for different archwings... so why not for PVP... for 20 warframes x_x

I think you just answered it yourself. 

 

There are only two Archwings (i.e.: 8 new skills). There are 22 Warframes (i.e.: 88 new skills).

 

Even the most creative person might struggle to create 88 new skills, 4 for each Warframe, in PVP. 

[Deruser]

I mean, they did it for archwing, new skills for different archwings... so why not for PVP... for 20 warframes x_x

 

Yeah it will take a lot of effort. But wouldn't it be worth it? Finally we have a balanced PVP system that players can enjoy. They can play it taking breaks from the grind in PVE. This can increase the longevity of the game.

[Auramaru]

I think you just answered it yourself. 

 

There are only two Archwings (i.e.: 8 new skills). There are 22 Warframes (i.e.: 88 new skills).

 

Even the most creative person might struggle to create 88 new skills, 4 for each Warframe, in PVP. 

yeah, but the point isn't to get into specifics, really: there are hundreds of threads on every single topic you could think of for PVP, offering solutions, new ideas, opinions on balance, etc... and they take none of it into account in the way they do nothing to fix it all. 

[Renegade343]

yeah, but the point isn't to get into specifics, really: there are hundreds of threads on every single topic you could think of for PVP, offering solutions, new ideas, opinions on balance, etc... and they take none of it into account in the way they do nothing to fix it all. 

True, but having to design new skills for each Warframe in PVP would be a bit of a tall order. 

 

Might be better just to ask for tweaks and such for powers. 

 

Anyways, how much attention do we need to get our PVP update?

[HoakinBlackforge]

At least, this is the only thing it should be removed from the game for now.

[Thyriell]

This is entirely accurate in it's review of PVP. PVP in this game is absolute trash, and while we dont have a 1-step solution, DE has to step in and do something about this. 

[Auramaru]

At least, this is the only thing it should be removed from the game for now.

"Removing" is not synonymous to "Fixing".

 

If you think of anything in life within the context you just provided, it makes no sense.

 

-Your car has a flat tire, so you abandon it and roll it into the river?

-Your kid isn't good at math, so you put him up for adoption.

-Your computer needs to update drivers, so you throw it out the window to not deal with the problem?

Edited December 7, 2014 by Azramoto

[Zirion_Bk]

True, but having to design new skills for each Warframe in PVP would be a bit of a tall order. 

 

Might be better just to ask for tweaks and such for powers. 

 

Anyways, how much attention do we need to get our PVP update?

At least two devstreams spammed with pvp balance pleas, a hundred pms to devs and a few thousand tweets and threads should do the trick.

[Renegade343]

At least two devstreams spammed with pvp balance pleas, a hundred pms to devs and a few thousand tweets and threads should do the trick.

We need to get that much players to do that. 

 

But at least it would be worth it. 

[Thyriell]

We need to get that much players to do that. 

 

But at least it would be worth it. 

 

Well you know what they say, a big enough S#&$storm is bound to get noticed at least by the smell.

Unfortunately though, DE either doesn't care or doesn't have the resources to contribute to active PVP development. 

[Auramaru]

Well you know what they say, a big enough S#&$storm is bound to get noticed at least by the smell.

Unfortunately though, DE either doesn't care or doesn't have the resources to contribute to active PVP development. 

*cough* *cough* 74million *cough* ._.

[TrickyBoomBoom]

Maybe we/DE should come up with a community priority poll that ranks all the bugs that are p|$$ing people off. Take a vote on your top twenty bugs. Every month we vote . At least this way the patches would address the community of bug testers in some way, feel like we are moving forward with this game that has undeniable potential. DE are doing the best they can and there is only a few of them so lets make it easy for them. Lets get these bastard bugs in a list with a deadline. Do threads on possible solutions. If DE has a problem with endgame lets bloody well make one for them. Get PvP into shape...as befits a wicked space ninja game. 

[Auramaru]

Maybe we/DE should come up with a community priority poll that ranks all the bugs that are p|$$ing people off. Take a vote on your top twenty bugs. Every month we vote . At least this way the patches would address the community of bug testers in some way, feel like we are moving forward with this game that has undeniable potential. DE are doing the best they can and there is only a few of them so lets make it easy for them. Lets get these bastard bugs in a list with a deadline. Do threads on possible solutions. If DE has a problem with endgame lets bloody well make one for them. Get PvP into shape...as befits a wicked space ninja game. 

That's the sort of enthusiasm we need!

 

But like others said, it will take a S#&$ storm of whining before DE lifts a finger to mess with PVP.  I would nearly bet you PLATINUM that they do not even look at the PVP Feedback Section of these forums, not once in the past 3 weeks, I bet.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Azramoto

[(PSN)Fbeast2]

Part of the reason PvP is o the back burner is this

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/308977-september-12th-community-hot-topics/

 

This is primarily a PvE game and the interest in PvP just is not high enough to justify the man power and resources that it would take to fix it.

[TornadoYoshi]

Hi,

 

i am actually a PvP-player who really enjoys competitive play based on skill level.

So i was a bit shocked when i read all ur commets and we tried it ourself today.

 

I enter the battlefield and get 1 shoted from whereever the otherone was^^

So we went to a dark sector conflict. i entered the battlefield with my fully modded polarized vectis to try to 1 shot too.

There way a Nyx and i amied for her head aaaaand

 

I crit! with 11 damage. ELEVEN DAMAGE~

 

She turns around pointing her bow in my direction, shot and i get 5.884 damage and die.

I couldnt believe it - my face in that moment must ve been quite a view...

Dont know enough about ranking and conclave etc so please feel free to explain to me but why is there such a difference in damage?

She did ~530times my damage i did on her. There is absolutly not a single way to play that PvP and have any kind of fun with it guys?!

Only if u invest your lifetime and money to an extreme degree to be the king without any kind of risk anyone could even scrath you.

w t f?^^

Thats not just "no fun" that is ridiculous.

Sorry but "how dare u" warframe developers build such a frustrating and humiliating expirience for your customers.

Is that your business model? to frustrate the players to a degree so they invest money too to be able to have any kind of fun?

 

That is not a new model though.

In Rakion (FtP PvP game) i met someone who spend 3000$ to be able to one hit anyone in his shiny armor -.-

The concept to get money works but it is not a respectful way to treat your customers in my opinion...

That cannot be your idea of a game... I hope...

 

regards Yosh

(sorry for my bad english - Im still learning)

[Rakshal]

Hi,

 

i am actually a PvP-player who really enjoys competitive play based on skill level.

So i was a bit shocked when i read all ur commets and we tried it ourself today.

 

I enter the battlefield and get 1 shoted from whereever the otherone was^^

So we went to a dark sector conflict. i entered the battlefield with my fully modded polarized vectis to try to 1 shot too.

There way a Nyx and i amied for her head aaaaand

 

I crit! with 11 damage. ELEVEN DAMAGE~

 

She turns around pointing her bow in my direction, shot and i get 5.884 damage and die.

I couldnt believe it - my face in that moment must ve been quite a view...

Dont know enough about ranking and conclave etc so please feel free to explain to me but why is there such a difference in damage?

She did ~530times my damage i did on her. There is absolutly not a single way to play that PvP and have any kind of fun with it guys?!

Only if u invest your lifetime and money to an extreme degree to be the king without any kind of risk anyone could even scrath you.

w t f?^^

Thats not just "no fun" that is ridiculous.

Sorry but "how dare u" warframe developers build such a frustrating and humiliating expirience for your customers.

Is that your business model? to frustrate the players to a degree so they invest money too to be able to have any kind of fun?

 

That is not a new model though.

In Rakion (FtP PvP game) i met someone who spend 3000$ to be able to one hit anyone in his shiny armor -.-

The concept to get money works but it is not a respectful way to treat your customers in my opinion...

That cannot be your idea of a game... I hope...

 

regards Yosh

(sorry for my bad english - Im still learning)

In DS PvP you have to unlock mods (which is stupid IMO) and DE reduced the damage done in PvP by a huge amount (non of the PvP players liked that). Your Vectis can basically only one shot in conclave if you have it modded correctly.

[blasron]

problem with pve/pvp game is that, if you don't put them at equal balance in the very first day, you will never find the balance for the rest of the game life.

This game start of has a pve game wich, later on put pvp in (since there was people asking for it), wich cause what we have here today. At first the dark sector was pve but they change it to pvp (again) later on. This have made people look at the dark sector and turn their back to it.

 

Result the dev probably will look into the pvp (one day meaby) but don't hope for it, since the majority of people here in warframe are pve player. Without forgetting that many people (like myself) are not very fond of pvp (i prefer rpg, platformer, good old bullet hell). If one day there's people (a lot of people) that ask to revise the pvp it will be done, but again don't hope too much for that i have put my opinion on idea on the pvp feedback and my name haven't move for at least a week (the last comment ).

[SanctumDraconis]

I love PvP,  my biggest peeteve about darksectors is the spawn camping, there should be some sort of building where you can respawn safely

[Auramaru]

Not completely sure if this is against forums rules or anything, but we should organize a chat-bomb for the next devstream for this.

 

WARFRAME New Year's Resolution: Not have sucky PVP.