Simple Fix For The Shotgun Damage Falloff

[Skreshavik]

Increase the effective range and increase the minimum damage cap for longer ranges. As of now, the numbers are, and I hate to describe it this way, but the numbers are atrocious in every sense of the word.

First thing's first. This nerf was needed. The Hek was an absolute monster at any range, even the more extreme, practical ranges you would expect (Orokin Core defense map, asteroid boss room, outside snow tiles.) If the falloff damage wasn't introduced, it would require a lot of fine-tuning for the Hek between damage per pellet, amount of pellets, and spread of pellets

Now I want to bring up the numbers. Damage fallout does not happen until you are hitting enemies past 10 meters ingame. 20 meters is when damage is reduced to under 10%, which I'll consider the lowest possible point the damage can fall for simplicity's sake. Finally, damage is roughly halved at 15 meters which causes me to believe the damage reduction is linear from 10-20 meters. The range and damage modifiers should not be this low. Here's what I would suggest that should be changed with the least possible amount of fine-tuning while achieving the best balance

Minimum damage cap should fall down to 50% at maximum range, not under 10%. Reasoning is that the Strun and Boar have a respectable amount of spread to keep them restricted to shooting at targets less than 20 meters, 25-30 meters being max unless you enjoy wasting ammo. The Hek suffers severely with the minimum damage percentage being so low for being classified a short and mid-ranged weapon. As of now, the Hek is essentially outclassed and has fallen down to the Snipetron-tier.

Range damage modifier needs to be boosted.

This is at 10 meters, at the point where damage will start to fall off

10 meters when aiming down the sight

This is 20 meters (when damage goes under 10%)

This is 20 meters when aiming down the sight

[Skreshavik]

20 meters was a comfortable distance to shoot enemies with any of the shotguns and expect to kill most enemies with  two shells with the Strun/Boar or one shell from the Hek. Why not put that as the starting point for damage to fall off? Anything further will lessen the impact the Strun and Boar can dish out because of the spread and put the Hek in the center of the spotlight. 50 meters can also be the maximum drop for damage. Strun and Boar cannot do anything at that range and the Hek will remain a competitor against the mid-range rifles.

50 meters

50 meters aiming down the sight

This should be the max range for shotguns. And lets just say the Hek still proves to be an unstoppable monster with these numbers imposed. All you need to do is just lower the minimum damage cap to say...25%? Sharper damage reduction throughout 20-50 meters and the minimum damage cap is down to 25%. Either way, it will be a much better change than the current numbers that are set up.

[Satori_Mind]

10m is a very comfortable range for shotguns.  Especially Hek!  Strun is likely to land more than half its pellets on most targets at that range.  Not only can Hek consistently land ALL of them, but it can focus more individual hits on weak points.  And 20m?  That's well into assault rifle range in game terms.

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1

 

agreed, the drop off currently is too steep, but I also agree that there should be a maximum effective range for shottys

[Davoodoo]

10m is a very comfortable range for shotguns.  Especially Hek!  Strun is likely to land more than half its pellets on most targets at that range.  Not only can Hek consistently land ALL of them, but it can focus more individual hits on weak points.  And 20m?  That's well into assault rifle range in game terms.

^ that.

50m is sniper range already. 40 is where most ppl start to miss with latron, braton and such. 30 are misses with pistols(lex excluded). 20 optimal range for most weapons. 10m feels like a good place for shotguns to be put cause whatever you say about real life shotguns are still short range compared to assault rifles or sniper rifles.

[Meltina]

^ that.

50m is sniper range already. 40 is where most ppl start to miss with latron, braton and such. 30 are misses with pistols(lex excluded). 20 optimal range for most weapons. 10m feels like a good place for shotguns to be put cause whatever you say about real life shotguns are still short range compared to assault rifles or sniper rifles.

If your not using a gorgon 20 meters is still where almost all the rounds of an assault rfile hits. I find 50 meters pretty comfortable with an assault rfile when aiming at the center of mass. I would find 20meters to be shotgun range and lets face it with the zoom of the snipetron 70 meters isnt bad for sniper range. If they make more stages like the corpus defense map having assault rifles be at 50 meters and snipers be at 90 meters wouldn't be too crazy they just would have to buff rifle accuracy a bit to compensate. Lets face it right now some bullets spread in ways thats impossible for it to properly exit the barrel at the moment.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

^ that.

50m is sniper range already. 40 is where most ppl start to miss with latron, braton and such. 30 are misses with pistols(lex excluded). 20 optimal range for most weapons. 10m feels like a good place for shotguns to be put cause whatever you say about real life shotguns are still short range compared to assault rifles or sniper rifles.

 

Real life shotguns are usually accurate anywhere to 300 meters with the right ammunition. Even with pellets, ten meters is pretty ridiculously short - people use shotguns to hunt birds, after all.

[AlaskanWyvern]

Real life shotguns are usually accurate anywhere to 300 meters with the right ammunition. Even with pellets, ten meters is pretty ridiculously short - people use shotguns to hunt birds, after all.

Thank you for saying this. That's the part that always gets me. If shotguns required point-blank ranges to get kills, then nobody would have used them for hunting (or anything else for that matter).

 

I do realize that ranges are compressed in this game, and they would have to be - at least at this point, where open spaces are uncommon. However, you can err on one of two sides with shotgun ranges. If you err on the "competition with rifles" side, shotguns still have a purpose. So they overlap with rifles a bit. That's fine. This is how it's supposed to be. There isn't a magic barrier at which point shotguns become useless, though, and a shotgun needs to be able to put at least a little damage downrange at that distance.

 

However, if you do what the current patch has done, and make shotgun effective range only slightly exceed melee range, then shotguns are worthless. Not only will melee hit nearly the same range, it doesn't take bullets, and it can knock everyone around you down! Let's see a shotgun do that.

 

IMHO, damage falloff was a lazy way of solving a problem that should have been solved by spread. Shotguns should be harder to use at range, not because their bullets turn into cottton candy, but because they're going off in a wide cone, and getting pellets on the target is a pain. This would balance, in that wider spread represents shorter-range functionality - you can point-blank to liquify a single target, or mid-range and damage multiple targets with one shot. The Strun and Boar would do varying degrees of this, while the Hek would have a very narrow cone so it's less of a brawler, but does more ranged damage. No magic falloff needed, just proper bullet mechanics.

[modded]

While ideally damage dropoff would not exist, since we have the Hek (makes me mad), damage dropoff is the easiest solution.

 

I agree with the OP, damage dropoff shouldn't start until 20m, and not go below 50% damage. (I use the strun, got a potato in it. I got hit too hard, since all shotties were hurt by a nerf that only the Hek needed.)

[Enlil]

Real life shotguns are usually accurate anywhere to 300 meters with the right ammunition. Even with pellets, ten meters is pretty ridiculously short - people use shotguns to hunt birds, after all.

agree, if there are wpn's that should be nerft in range than it should be pistols, anyone who has shooting experience knows it's rly hard to hit >20m with those 9mm.. and specialy an desert eagle 357 or .50.. i m convinced most ppl can not even hold it while shooting, dont even talk about making an hit.

[Enlil]

I mean, c'mon.. my "super soaker" water pistol shoots 15m effectifly!! and we get the best wpn ingame @ 10m effectif.. this is just wrong, mobs can shoot at us frome 100m through walls barrels and other stuff, and hit.

[MoonicusMaximus]

People really need to cut it out, using this 'Real-World Shotguns Do This' line constantly.

 

Real world shotguns don't have to fall into a semblance of balance in order to fit with other weapons around it. Game mechanics and weapon balance take precedence over realism in the context of Warframe.

Edited April 27, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Dredj]

So 10m is the effective range of the Hek now? I wonder what melee weapon the Hek whiteknights are using that can hit from 10m away.

 

I really like your post btw, OP, a Hek post that isn't full of hyperbole and the screenshots really help getting the message across.

 

I used the Hek before the nerf and continue to use it after the nerf, shotguns in games are my vocation.

[Skreshavik]

10m is a very comfortable range for shotguns.  Especially Hek!  Strun is likely to land more than half its pellets on most targets at that range.  Not only can Hek consistently land ALL of them, but it can focus more individual hits on weak points.  And 20m?  That's well into assault rifle range in game terms.

 

I have to respectfully disagree. Effective weapon range is relative to eachother. Whatever distance and past shotguns are least effective at rifles take advantage of. Rifles should do well at all ranges, but shotguns shouldn't be a melee weapon with bullets, as someone aptly put it. I do see your point though, and I always believe weapons and tactics that require more skill should naturally give a larger reward.

 

 

^ that.

50m is sniper range already. 40 is where most ppl start to miss with latron, braton and such. 30 are misses with pistols(lex excluded). 20 optimal range for most weapons. 10m feels like a good place for shotguns to be put cause whatever you say about real life shotguns are still short range compared to assault rifles or sniper rifles.

People who are missing with the Latron, other rifles, and pistols past 40 meters need to seriously check their aim (bugs and glitches aside.) The only weapons that should be having issues at those ranges and beyond are the Bursttron, Kraken, and Sicarius due to their burst functions, bolt weapons due to trajectory and projectile travel, and the Furius/Viper because of their insane fire rate.

 

As for the people saying that the shotgun's real-life counterparts and their actual effective range are much larger than they are ingame, that is very true. On the other hand, this game isn't balanced around realism but rather their respective roles. They should obviously hold the upper hand at closer ranges, but if they're equally or almost as strong at longer ranges, then we're back to square one.

[Skreshavik]

So 10m is the effective range of the Hek now? I wonder what melee weapon the Hek whiteknights are using that can hit from 10m away.

 

I really like your post btw, OP, a Hek post that isn't full of hyperbole and the screenshots really help getting the message across.

 

I used the Hek before the nerf and continue to use it after the nerf, shotguns in games are my vocation.

Maybe the Scindo/Glaive, eh? Thanks for the compliment. Normally I only speak up in other threads about balance, but the amount of exaggeration and bemoaning regarding the Hek had to be addressed, namely because I fear a complete revert to original, overpowered Hek levels or the shotguns staying at the same, weak state they are now.

[Amistyrja]

10m is a very comfortable range for shotguns.  Especially Hek!  Strun is likely to land more than half its pellets on most targets at that range.  Not only can Hek consistently land ALL of them, but it can focus more individual hits on weak points.  And 20m?  That's well into assault rifle range in game terms.

What.

 

 

Perhaps Hek needed the damage falloff. But it's still some kind of choked, long barrel shotgun that was described as 'efficient at medium range'. 10m is the distance where most Tenno try to pull out their melee weapons before their enemies do. If the Hek can't perform at at least 25m the description needs some changing.

[mmSNAKE]

People really need to cut it out, using this 'Real-World Shotguns Do This' line constantly.

 

Real world shotguns don't have to fall into a semblance of balance in order to fit with other weapons around it. Game mechanics and weapon balance take precedence over realism in the context of Warframe.

 

I have to agree with this. Real world isn't fair, and you can't adjust physics to make it so. With games we should strive to achieve as much balance as we can to have a fair and varied experience.

 

We can base some stuff from real world but that is as far as it gets. It doesn't have to be rooted in the ground.

 

Don't get me wrong, it annoys the hell out of me when people believe shotguns paint an entire wall from a room distance, or that 9mm cartridge is a "pea shooter" (because games portray them as such). There are a ton of bad things games tell people about firearms that are completely absurd, however if you just take it for the game it's fine. When you start to use that "experience" for your real life arguments is where stupidity comes up.

 

Back to original topic. I agree with OP. I fully believe that 20m ingame should be full damage efficiency for shotguns. I don't think it should fall off until 20, and then perhaps on a different curve.

Edited April 28, 2013 by mmSNAKE

[Woolytop]

...As of now, the Hek is essentially outclassed and has fallen down to the Snipetron-tier...

 

I'm going to get to the rest of your points in a moment, but what, WHAT on god's green earth makes you think this?

The strun still hurts less, by more than it used to, still has a wider spread than the hek, and still has that god-awful reload time. Yes, the hek only has 4 rounds in the chamber, but it takes a much shorter amount of time to reload, so an unmodded Hek is still better than an unmodded strun in almost every way. Meanwhile, the snipetron does nothing that other rifles don't do just as well, only has four rounds, a ridiculous reload time, terrible RoF, and is only good if your enemy is standing perfectly still at a distance that I don't think presently exists in the game.

Within the hek's new effective range, it will still take ONE. SHELL to do the work of half a dozen or more rifle rounds, or 2-5 shots from the other shotguns.

 

Secondly, I truly appreciate your coming in with actual numbers, that seem to line up with my experience and quick tests (~15 meters being out of my effective range). However, I want you to look at your pictures for a moment and realize how far away, 10, 20 and especially 50 meters actually are when you take into account how small most tiles are. If shotguns were effective at these ranges, then we'd be back to square one with the hek outclassing everything in every situation.

 

Choosing a gun means that you're accepting the challenge of finding and exploiting that gun's optimal situation. If that optimal situation is "every situation", then there's a problem somewhere.

[The_Diabetes]

Its completely hilarious how some of you want shotgun falloff to start at 50m. Most combat in the game occurs within 30m or less.

[Amistyrja]

50m sounds almost as ridiculous as the damage falloff mechanic. But still not as ridiculous as it starting at 10m. 25m or something sounds fair for a 'medium range' shotgun like the Hek.

[The_Diabetes]

Falloff starting at 25m means that shotguns do full damage in the vast majority of all combat situations and as a nerf would have little to no impact. Hilarious that you find it fair.

[Amistyrja]

Falloff starting at 25m means that shotguns do full damage in the vast majority of all combat situations and as a nerf would have little to no impact. Hilarious that you find it fair.

All? Grineer start firing at you from over dozens of metres away across multiple catwalks and ledges. Corpus walkers pew pew at you from one floor below. Most bosses don't care how far you are, they'll still have a way to hit you. I would expect a Latron and its friends to beat the Hek in such a situation. It's only natural that I, among many others, find the nerf a little unfair.

[Edgecrusha]

Real life shotguns are usually accurate anywhere to 300 meters with the right ammunition. Even with pellets, ten meters is pretty ridiculously short - people use shotguns to hunt birds, after all.

Very true but the ammo used it that instance basically blankets an entire area with pellets, hitting a soft small target will kill it.

Try the same tactic on a armoured large target and you wont even scratch it.

[Skreshavik]

I'm going to get to the rest of your points in a moment, but what, WHAT on god's green earth makes you think this?

The strun still hurts less, by more than it used to, still has a wider spread than the hek, and still has that god-awful reload time. Yes, the hek only has 4 rounds in the chamber, but it takes a much shorter amount of time to reload, so an unmodded Hek is still better than an unmodded strun in almost every way. Meanwhile, the snipetron does nothing that other rifles don't do just as well, only has four rounds, a ridiculous reload time, terrible RoF, and is only good if your enemy is standing perfectly still at a distance that I don't think presently exists in the game.

Within the hek's new effective range, it will still take ONE. SHELL to do the work of half a dozen or more rifle rounds, or 2-5 shots from the other shotguns.

 

Secondly, I truly appreciate your coming in with actual numbers, that seem to line up with my experience and quick tests (~15 meters being out of my effective range). However, I want you to look at your pictures for a moment and realize how far away, 10, 20 and especially 50 meters actually are when you take into account how small most tiles are. If shotguns were effective at these ranges, then we'd be back to square one with the hek outclassing everything in every situation.

 

Choosing a gun means that you're accepting the challenge of finding and exploiting that gun's optimal situation. If that optimal situation is "every situation", then there's a problem somewhere.

 

It's absolute garbage past 20 meters. Seeing a cloud of 1's, 2's, 3's, and 4's are pretty cool, but I wouldn't even compare that to six shots from a rifle with an equal amount of mods.There's literally no reason to use a shotgun as your primary after this update. The exact same reason why nobody should use the Snipetron over anything else.

 

I'm well aware how far away those distances are. If you're at 10 meters, you might as well charge in with a melee weapon. 20 meters isn't far. At all. The majority of battles don't happen in areas where you're literally face to face. It's rather a bunch of hallways and corridors with outside tiles. Am I saying the shotguns need to reach out to 50+ yards? Hell no. What I'm saying is that the damage could reach its lowest point at 50 meters and stays consistent. If it's so much of an issue that 50 meters is too long, then the minimum damage range can be shortened.

 

 

50m sounds almost as ridiculous as the damage falloff mechanic. But still not as ridiculous as it starting at 10m. 25m or something sounds fair for a 'medium range' shotgun like the Hek.

 

Fair enough. I would much rather have a slight overbuff than the current nerf.

 

 

Falloff starting at 25m means that shotguns do full damage in the vast majority of all combat situations and as a nerf would have little to no impact. Hilarious that you find it fair.

I disagree. As Amistyrja said, a lot of shooting happens in corridors, hallways, and large, open spaces with a plethora of cover. The Asteroid map has a buttload of open spots. The Corpus/Grineer ship have more long hallways than a palace. The snow planet has a massive amount of vast, open tiles. Am I saying the shotgun should hold the advantage in all of these places? No. Not at all. On your side of the argument, it's completely absurd to state a sweeping generalization about the majority of combat being so close when it simply isn't so.

 

 

Very true but the ammo used it that instance basically blankets an entire area with pellets, hitting a soft small target will kill it.

Try the same tactic on a armoured large target and you wont even scratch it.

The pellets create a massive amount of drag and suffer from wind resistance due to their round disposition. I highly doubt you'll kill anything aside from an unlucky bird or a mean paper target. Slugs on the other hand have the ability to reach out at that distance, albeit a rare occurrence.

[Davoodoo]

Real life shotguns are usually accurate anywhere to 300 meters with the right ammunition. Even with pellets, ten meters is pretty ridiculously short - people use shotguns to hunt birds, after all.

Someone sent some nice link few topics before 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm

 

page 3

2. At moderate ranges (20 yards), the loads had an average spread of around 9 to 17 inches. This is getting big enough that, unless carefully aimed, many pellets will miss a bad guy.

3. At long ranges, even 45 yards, you will miss with more pellets that you will hit with. The question might be, "Why would you shoot at someone at 45 yards?"

 

At 300m you are lucky if even 1 pellet hits and its power might be enough to kill a bird but not human. Especially in few tons armor made from space era materials.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Davoodoo