Recent Nerfs

[Argoms]

I've been testing Gorgon and Hek for quite some time now, before and after nerf. This is my assessment:

 

General gun balance:

The Devs should find out what they really want with this game. Do they want all guns to be balanced against one another or not.

Guns are separated into different levels which are unlocked by the mastery rank. This indicates to me the following:

High tier guns should be trickier to use than low tier guns but their damage potential, once mastered, should be higher than lower tier guns.

This may mean that lower tier guns have no place in the actual "endgame" but they might still be chosen over the high tier guns because of their better handling or other reasons of convenience (price, easily accessible production material, low mastery rank, aesthetics).

As a sidenote, I expect some realism in a sci-fi game.

 

Gorgon:

The gun was fine before. Both in accuracy and spin mechanics. It behaved like an actual machinegun with a perfect first shot precision and exponentially increasing recoil and loss of accuracy. Base precision should be even higher than any assault rifle because of the longer barrel. In the army I learned to fire controlled three round bursts to a range of 200 meters and more, allowing only a deviation of 5 inches from the bulls eye.

To be fair, we lay on the ground before, but we didn't have highly developed exoskeletons either. Anyway, the gun was appealing to me because it tied in with my personal experience, giving me an authentic feel. That is now ruined.

Also, Grineer minigunners are now laughably inprecise and hardly a threat.

 

My suggestion for Gorgon is:

1) Increase base accuracy to a high level (above 20) and double the exponential accuracy loss by autofire.

2) Increase "spindown" duration so players have to wait longer for controlled bursts after extended autofire.

3) Decrease base damage if you have to. (It uses rifle ammo after all.)

 

Assessment of HEK coming soon.

As far as I knew, non-starter guns are intended to be relatively equally viable. I agree on your point about weapons needing to be trickier to use, however, I don't think most people's idea of "tricky" is enough.

The thing about making a gun "tricky to use" is that you can't simply slap high recoil onto it and call it a day. Tricky weapons have to be genuinely different from other weapons in the game. One example of this would be a projectile weapon that starts weak, but exponentially gains weak spot damage as it flies further- you need knowledge of enemy types and where the weak point is, good prediction skills to know where to aim for, good precision to hit exactly where you want, and an understanding of your surroundings to set up a situation that favors your weapon. 

 

As the nerf has shown, the gorgon was not intended to be single-fired, it was designed for long periods of sustained fire. This is the intention of the developer, so we can only make suggestions on how to improve its role, not bring up real life examples to try and change its role. Don't try to bring real life gun logic into this game, it clearly doesn't give a damn (four barreled shotgun able to upgrade capacity to 6? Pistol that fires bolts with a 15 round capacity, even though the combined size of those bolts would be larger than the gun? high-caliber pistol able to do more damage than sniper rifle? clip/magazine distinction? most guns don't even have magwells/magazines modeled?). From this standpoint, it would seem better to:

1) Reduce bullet spread (deviation from crosshair) as the gun winds up

2) Increase reserve ammunition

3) Possibly increase size of magazine

[Amistyrja]

So basically let's make the Hek like every other shotgun in video games, edit it's description so it doesn't state that it's 'efficient at medium range', saw off its long barrels and rename it to 'Mk II Strun', all in the name of 'balance' so rifle users don't feel uh 'discriminated'? Not like players can do anything about it except cry. Right? It's for the greater good, what's a few Hek users compared to the rest of the playerbase and the game's 'balance'? Right?

 

I'm so glad I was short of a few Alloy Plates when the nerf hit.

[HanShotFirst]

The scary part about this is that very little about the Hek's strengths actually changed with this nerf.

 

 

The Hek's only meaningful strength *was* its accuracy at long range. You say as much in your opening sentence. We can debate as to whether or not that's "severely broken from conception", but the point remains the same.

 

In its current state, the Hek is an overpriced, high-barrier-of-entry shotgun without a purpose or niche.

 

I would advise players to instead purchase a Strun (which is every bit as effective) and can be acquired at rank 1 for less platinum/credits.

[HanShotFirst]

If the hek can deal shotgun damage at rifle range, then what do rifles do?

 

 

Depends on the rifle. Here's how I'd break it down (ie: over-generalizing):

 

Paris & Snipetron - I can aim really well & kill in one shot

Hek & Latron - I can aim *relatively* well & kill in one or two shots

Everything else - I can't aim to save my life, but if I throw enough lead downrange, something is bound to die

 

From my perspective, the Hek was a pseudo sniper rifle. Now it's just a rank 4 generic shotgun, with a higher platinum/credit cost.

[Argoms]

 

Depends on the rifle. Here's how I'd break it down (ie: over-generalizing):

 

Paris & Snipetron - I can aim really well & kill in one shot

Hek & Latron - I can aim *relatively* well & kill in one or two shots

Everything else - I can't aim to save my life, but if I throw enough lead downrange, something is bound to die

 

From my perspective, the Hek was a pseudo sniper rifle. Now it's just a rank 4 generic shotgun, with a higher platinum/credit cost.

 

 

That was a question based on the suggestion that hek be made into a rifle-range weapon (again). 

[Cleesus]

Let me just add this:

 

After reading the patchnotes, my first thought was "well, too bad my favourite gun was nerfed. But with the dominance it had over others, maybe some adjustment was warranted. Then I went out to see how bad it was. I equipped my potatoed level 30 shotgun, stacked through the roof with upgraded damage mods. Ironically, my first finding was that I couldn't oneshot *a vent* at max range.

 

Then I went to test my gorgon. I missed a chest at mid range for 3 times before I could hit it.

 

Then I decided to quit for the day.

I did the exact same thing, I went to pluto expecting to still one shot enemies and i barely scratched him. I got wave 5, left and exited the game and have barely played since.

[HanShotFirst]

That was a question based on the suggestion that hek be made into a rifle-range weapon (again). 

 

 

And so was my response. Again, the problem is you're lumping pretty much everything that isn't a shotgun into the "rifle" category.

 

You might as well be asking why a Grakata doesn't have the range/dmg of a Snipetron.

[Guest]

I see what you're saying, I agree

Edited May 1, 2013 by Guest

[Loswaith]

... and thank you for the revised multishot, I thought it did full damage. ..

Multi-shot fires an extra bullet that does 100% of the damage that all others do when it activates.  However that will activate only 90% of the time, so that on average 9 out of 10 shots activate the multi-shot and thusly do double damage and 1 does normal damage.  Its simpler to use an average of each one doing 190% damage (ie 1.9 bullets fired each time), especially since over 45 rounds one can expect to have 4-5 bullets do normal damage. 

The actual damage will be different because there is the potential (though not likely) for all or none (or any combination in between) of the normal bullets activating the multi-shot component.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Loswaith

[Lord.Finster]

As far as I knew, non-starter guns are intended to be relatively equally viable. I agree on your point about weapons needing to be trickier to use, however, I don't think most people's idea of "tricky" is enough.

The thing about making a gun "tricky to use" is that you can't simply slap high recoil onto it and call it a day. Tricky weapons have to be genuinely different from other weapons in the game. One example of this would be a projectile weapon that starts weak, but exponentially gains weak spot damage as it flies further- you need knowledge of enemy types and where the weak point is, good prediction skills to know where to aim for, good precision to hit exactly where you want, and an understanding of your surroundings to set up a situation that favors your weapon. 

 

As the nerf has shown, the gorgon was not intended to be single-fired, it was designed for long periods of sustained fire. This is the intention of the developer, so we can only make suggestions on how to improve its role, not bring up real life examples to try and change its role. Don't try to bring real life gun logic into this game, it clearly doesn't give a damn (four barreled shotgun able to upgrade capacity to 6? Pistol that fires bolts with a 15 round capacity, even though the combined size of those bolts would be larger than the gun? high-caliber pistol able to do more damage than sniper rifle? clip/magazine distinction? most guns don't even have magwells/magazines modeled?). From this standpoint, it would seem better to:

1) Reduce bullet spread (deviation from crosshair) as the gun winds up

2) Increase reserve ammunition

3) Possibly increase size of magazine

We both seem to agree, that high tier guns should have interesting mechanics that are unique, require more skill and are interesting to use.

However, fictional guns are still very much based on real guns, even though they have a certain amount of abstraction to them. Although guns should have interesting mechanics, they shouldn't feel completely counterintuitive either. Sacrificing the feel of authenticity for some abstract role, that only makes sense in the context of the game, is IMO not the right way. That is too much RPG element for my taste.

 

You pointed out the right problem though:

In a game where I can snipe people 300 yards away with a completely accurate pistol (no damage dropoff here) it's hard for me to accept a machinegun that can't.

Also, many of the upgrades feel very gamy, too, like the ammo stock on the HEK. These problems need to be adressed somehow as well.

Percentage-based abstraction isn't the right way for many Mods. But thats OT, now.

[Amistyrja]

In a game where I can snipe people 300 yards away with a completely accurate pistol (no damage dropoff here) it's hard for me to accept a machinegun that can't.

Ssshhh they'll nerf the Lex next!

[GTG3000]

Ssshhh they'll nerf the Lex next!

 

Sure hope they won't.

[Meltina]

They need to make the ammo pick give ammo based on the maximum ammo count of the gun and up the boars max ammo so it gets a similar amout of damage from the ammo boxes. 

 

Reducing the Hek damage by about 20 would bring it down to the range of a snipetron in damage just adjust its fire rate down a little and buff snipetrons reload speed then you have both weapons be comparable. They would be marksman rifles with the hek specializing at close range and the snipetron at long range and both capable of hitting things at medium range hard.

 

Then remove damage fall off. It makes no sense for it to apply to only one class of weapons. Why would my boomstick lose damage faster than a small caliber pistol. If you applied the fall off to all weapons it would hurt pistols the worst. Boar and strum already get damage fall off in the form of missed pellets from spread. The falloff nerf killed the tactic of spraying a group with a shotgun to soften them up. The boar would be able to soften a large group up infront of me so my slash dash would not be stopped by something surviving the hit.

 

Also melee range is clasified how far your swing goes in a single movement. Slash dash is 28 meters. Excalibur melee range is 28 meters. Most would consider it a melee/close range abilty. That puts melee/close as 28 meters. If you decide slash dash is medium range that puts it 18 meters beyond where shotgun falloff starts and 9 meters beyond where shotguns lose 93% damage.

[Argoms]

 

And so was my response. Again, the problem is you're lumping pretty much everything that isn't a shotgun into the "rifle" category.

 

You might as well be asking why a Grakata doesn't have the range/dmg of a Snipetron.

 

I don't have the grakata, but the latron/snipetron/braton/burston actually can all hit targets at the same ranges (assuming I don't have to zoom) for me. 

[GTG3000]

I don't have the grakata, but the latron/snipetron/braton/burston actually can all hit targets at the same ranges (assuming I don't have to zoom) for me. 

 

Grakata can hit distant targets too, it's just hard to deal with the recoil (since in the game recoil doesn't affect the crosshair all that much), and it deals nice damage if you manage to hit a weakspot.

[Kamisan]

Just swapped back to my BOAR, and I am so disappointed at the effects of the nerf on it, I go full auto on clearing mag after mag after mag on a disarmed Grineer Minigunner and it just goes lol taze even after I ran out of shotgun ammo, I didn't really kill anything with it that mission, I felt as though I was using a mist gun spraying water into their faces, not shotgun rounds with semi-lethal pellets.

[GTG3000]

Just swapped back to my BOAR, and I am so disappointed at the effects of the nerf on it, I go full auto on clearing mag after mag after mag on a disarmed Grineer Minigunner and it just goes lol taze even after I ran out of shotgun ammo, I didn't really kill anything with it that mission, I felt as though I was using a mist gun spraying water into their faces, not shotgun rounds with semi-lethal pellets.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/36067-the-boar-aka-the-automatic-feather-dispenser/

[Kamisan]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/36067-the-boar-aka-the-automatic-feather-dispenser/

 

Hahaha, It's just like that comic except replace everything in that comic with cotton candy.

[GTG3000]

Hahaha, It's just like that comic except replace everything in that comic with cotton candy.

 

And grineer, dying from choking on it while laughing and diabeetus.)

[ArsVampyre]

Suggestion: Take out the damage/range modifer.  Increase Hek and Strun pellet spread.  Create mod that increases accuracy, or for shotguns decreases pellet spread.  Let people who want to use the Hek eat a slot with an accuracy mod to get it to 'snipe' or deal with the increased spread by getting closer.  Hek has less spread than strun, which has less than boar.

 

Problem solved, IMO, and guns like the Gorgon can get better accuracy by eating power and a slot with the same mod.

[Captator]

Suggestion: Take out the damage/range modifer.  Increase Hek and Strun pellet spread.  Create mod that increases accuracy, or for shotguns decreases pellet spread.  Let people who want to use the Hek eat a slot with an accuracy mod to get it to 'snipe' or deal with the increased spread by getting closer.  Hek has less spread than strun, which has less than boar.

 

Problem solved, IMO, and guns like the Gorgon can get better accuracy by eating power and a slot with the same mod.

 

Bad game design. Here is better:

 

Revert Hek to old range/spread, give shotguns an armour piercing stat drop off, so they might hit at mid/long range, but unless you are really accurate/lucky (skill ceiling up) they won't do much damage on most targets, optionally give higher stagger chance if target is above a certain armour level (if you get hit by a load of pellets and they don't go through you, you are going to be knocked about a bit due to kinetic energy transfer.

 

For Gorgon, change accuracy when stationary to 1st shot pinpoint, 5 round bursts tight cluster, longer bursts dropping off as previously, make walk speed while firing slower and increase base accuracy a bit from current, it is ridiculously low. Keep spin up changes, combined with these changes they allow for a skilled player to manage pepperpotting tactics nicely. (skill ceiling up)

 

How do these now match up to the other weapons?

 

First, comparing Hek to rifles; lower damage against armoured targets (most of them) at range, significantly so without good aim. Good at clearing out unarmoured hordes. No longer 'best' weapon at all ranges/against all target types.

 

Second, comparing Gorgon to rifles; higher sustained damage output in close due to higher magazine size but lower manoeuvreability; less run and gun, more stand and deliver. Behaviour mirrored at mid/long range; good damage in short bursts, potential to outdamage rifles from a static position (skill ceiling up; find good positions) less damage if frequently moving due to decreased accuracy and speed while moving and firing. Depending on gameplay style/mission type, now either superior or inferior to rifles.

 

v0v

[ArsVampyre]

Bad game design. Here is better:

 

Revert Hek to old range/spread, give shotguns an armour piercing stat drop off, so they might hit at mid/long range, but unless you are really accurate/lucky (skill ceiling up) they won't do much damage on most targets, optionally give higher stagger chance if target is above a certain armour level (if you get hit by a load of pellets and they don't go through you, you are going to be knocked about a bit due to kinetic energy transfer.

 

For Gorgon, change accuracy when stationary to 1st shot pinpoint, 5 round bursts tight cluster, longer bursts dropping off as previously, make walk speed while firing slower and increase base accuracy a bit from current, it is ridiculously low. Keep spin up changes, combined with these changes they allow for a skilled player to manage pepperpotting tactics nicely. (skill ceiling up)

 

How do these now match up to the other weapons?

 

First, comparing Hek to rifles; lower damage against armoured targets (most of them) at range, significantly so without good aim. Good at clearing out unarmoured hordes. No longer 'best' weapon at all ranges/against all target types.

 

Second, comparing Gorgon to rifles; higher sustained damage output in close due to higher magazine size but lower manoeuvreability; less run and gun, more stand and deliver. Behaviour mirrored at mid/long range; good damage in short bursts, potential to outdamage rifles from a static position (skill ceiling up; find good positions) less damage if frequently moving due to decreased accuracy and speed while moving and firing. Depending on gameplay style/mission type, now either superior or inferior to rifles.

 

v0v

 

 

Don't agree.  The problem with your suggestion is that the only real 'armored' enemies are Grineer and Corpus Mecha (with their shields).  That leaves the Hek still massively OP. If the Dev's don't want you to snipe with it, reverting it to before and adding in some new mechanic that doesn't exist right now just complicates it for no reason.  

 

I understand that people with leveled Heks want their killing machines back, but if it was singularly the best primary weapon for all occasions, then it was simply OP.  Better to stick with this nerf than make it OP again and add stagger to Grineer and shielded enemies, making it even more OP.

 

At least my suggestion has a trade-off for making it accurate again that might make another weapon as viable or preferable depending on the situation.  An alternative might be that shotgun-style weaponry simply doesn't do AP no matter what, so that it's nearly useless vs Grineer and shielded enemies.  Then you'd likely only take it on Infested missions.  But there's already an AP mod for shotguns so rather than taking something away, I suggest adding something new that is of benefit to everyone.

 

My suggestion may not be the best solution, but it's better than asking the Dev's to just make the Hek even more OP.  They're never going to bite on that.

[Aciszen]

I know a lot of people like how the Hek has four barrels, and they would miss it. I'm personally not a big fan of it.

 

I can say I wouldn't mind if they "nerfed" the Hek by making it a double barrel shotgun. It'd have its pre-nerf damage with maybe a bigger spread to prevent taking the snipetron's niche (which it never really had anyways).

 

Max of 2 shells, reloaded individually with total reload time for those 2 shells being equal to the Hek's current 4.

Basically the nerf is halving the Hek's "clip size", instead of it's damage. Personally, I'd also like for it's right to click to empty both barrels vs zooming in.

 

If this idea alienates the 4 barrel lovers 2 much at least it's a nice idea for a skin. :D

 

P.S. Also make it a side side instead of an over under. (BOOMSTICK)

Edited May 1, 2013 by Aciszen

[GTG3000]

Bad game design. Here is better:

 

Revert Hek to old range/spread, give shotguns an armour piercing stat drop off, so they might hit at mid/long range, but unless you are really accurate/lucky (skill ceiling up) they won't do much damage on most targets, optionally give higher stagger chance if target is above a certain armour level (if you get hit by a load of pellets and they don't go through you, you are going to be knocked about a bit due to kinetic energy transfer.

 

For Gorgon, change accuracy when stationary to 1st shot pinpoint, 5 round bursts tight cluster, longer bursts dropping off as previously, make walk speed while firing slower and increase base accuracy a bit from current, it is ridiculously low. Keep spin up changes, combined with these changes they allow for a skilled player to manage pepperpotting tactics nicely. (skill ceiling up)

 

How do these now match up to the other weapons?

 

First, comparing Hek to rifles; lower damage against armoured targets (most of them) at range, significantly so without good aim. Good at clearing out unarmoured hordes. No longer 'best' weapon at all ranges/against all target types.

 

Second, comparing Gorgon to rifles; higher sustained damage output in close due to higher magazine size but lower manoeuvreability; less run and gun, more stand and deliver. Behaviour mirrored at mid/long range; good damage in short bursts, potential to outdamage rifles from a static position (skill ceiling up; find good positions) less damage if frequently moving due to decreased accuracy and speed while moving and firing. Depending on gameplay style/mission type, now either superior or inferior to rifles.

 

v0v

 

Yeah, it was suggested at least six times by now... Personally I think that making shotguns rely havilly on anti-armour mods of any kind (fire/electro/ap, you name it) against any part of the baddie that isn't the weak point with gradual falloff of the mod damage with distance (not a sharp one, mind you) would make for an interesting mechanic.

 

As for gorgon, well... Put a big pause between 'semiauto' shots and it's going to be balanced.

Also, no gun in game alters running speed so far, maybe all the fixes are temporare until devs introduce the mechanic?

[Kamisan]

And grineer, dying from choking on it while laughing and diabeetus.)

 

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