Frost Feedback / Discussion

[TwiceDead]

It does help, but 4 seconds is a pretty short amount of time for a globe that's meant to be a powerful area of defense against enemy mobs that can continuously pump out that kind of damage far longer than 4 seconds. Maybe an extension to the invulnerability timer could be added to a rework?

You can already spam the globe to S#&$. It doesn't need any invulnerability past what we already have. 

At best one Snowglobe can cost you 13 energy if you mod for it, and at most frost can have (with a maxed Flow) 300 points of energy to spend.

 

How many Snowglobes is that? 10? 20? I'm counting 23 casts, and that's not taking into account any equipped Energy Siphons, and even then you have energy restores easily accessible while veterans have Synoid Gammacors or hell any Cephalon weapon mod equipped somewhere. Even if it were to go down in 3 seconds, you'd still have a full minute worth of invulnerability from 23 globes if you time the casts right, and they last longer than 3 seconds so you already have more invulnerability time than that, IF THE FROST IS PAYING ATTENTION THAT IS.

Ofcourse this is with a maxed flow. Normally you'd only be able to cast 12 before your pool ran out, but then again one energy orb is almost two snowglobes so where's the rush...? 

 

Snowglobe doesn't need a longer invulnerability timer, and the reason it needs a timer is because it can be spammed out of your wazoo. Remove the spammability and you may consider a more durable globe, but even then you'd probably be able to re-cast it as soon as the first wen't down so that's probably not much of a solution either. 

Snowglobe is fine, but it should be more interesting than it currently is... I say spinning hexagons. 

 

Now freeze and avalanche on the other hand...

[XToxinator]

You can already spam the globe to S#&$. It doesn't need any invulnerability past what we already have. 

At best one Snowglobe can cost you 13 energy if you mod for it, and at most frost can have (with a maxed Flow) 300 points of energy to spend.

 

How many Snowglobes is that? 10? 20? I'm counting 23 casts, and that's not taking into account any equipped Energy Siphons, and even then you have energy restores easily accessible while veterans have Synoid Gammacors or hell any Cephalon weapon mod equipped somewhere. Even if it were to go down in 3 seconds, you'd still have a full minute worth of invulnerability from 23 globes if you time the casts right, and they last longer than 3 seconds so you already have more invulnerability time than that, IF THE FROST IS PAYING ATTENTION THAT IS.

Ofcourse this is with a maxed flow. Normally you'd only be able to cast 12 before your pool ran out, but then again one energy orb is almost two snowglobes so where's the rush...? 

 

Snowglobe doesn't need a longer invulnerability timer, and the reason it needs a timer is because it can be spammed out of your wazoo. Remove the spammability and you may consider a more durable globe, but even then you'd probably be able to re-cast it as soon as the first wen't down so that's probably not much of a solution either. 

Snowglobe is fine, but it should be more interesting than it currently is... I say spinning hexagons. 

 

Now freeze and avalanche on the other hand...

Snowglobe is not really fine. Why? It has both timer and HP, So DE needs to have one timer or HP. I would suggest HP since its buff on update 12 and remove the damn timer. So what are you saying flr freeze and avalanche? Apparently Frost stats and ability needs a fair buff. If Rhino prime has a speed boost 1.0 then frost is a slow tank, then he needs a lot of armor.

[AlphaHorseman]

You can already spam the globe to S#&$. It doesn't need any invulnerability past what we already have. 

At best one Snowglobe can cost you 13 energy if you mod for it, and at most frost can have (with a maxed Flow) 300 points of energy to spend.

 

How many Snowglobes is that? 10? 20? I'm counting 23 casts, and that's not taking into account any equipped Energy Siphons, and even then you have energy restores easily accessible while veterans have Synoid Gammacors or hell any Cephalon weapon mod equipped somewhere. Even if it were to go down in 3 seconds, you'd still have a full minute worth of invulnerability from 23 globes if you time the casts right, and they last longer than 3 seconds so you already have more invulnerability time than that, IF THE FROST IS PAYING ATTENTION THAT IS.

Ofcourse this is with a maxed flow. Normally you'd only be able to cast 12 before your pool ran out, but then again one energy orb is almost two snowglobes so where's the rush...? 

 

Snowglobe doesn't need a longer invulnerability timer, and the reason it needs a timer is because it can be spammed out of your wazoo. Remove the spammability and you may consider a more durable globe, but even then you'd probably be able to re-cast it as soon as the first wen't down so that's probably not much of a solution either. 

Snowglobe is fine, but it should be more interesting than it currently is... I say spinning hexagons. 

 

Now freeze and avalanche on the other hand...

So Frost is delegated it Globe duty, as Nekros is delegated to Desecrate duty? Is that what we're going to do to our frames? Just zone them off by their powers? Limit them to those one purposes just because you THINK it's ok? Don't forget that with that max efficiency you're losing out on your duration, the very thing that keeps ranged attacks out and us protected. NO FRAME should be forced to just use one power, or build one way, just because it fits the meta. He isn't just his snow globe, but that's what you're making him out to be, the frame with the Globe.

 

All his powers need some work, as many other frames also do.

 

His globe suffers from BOTH timer AND health, and thus he's gimped two ways. You build for efficiency, you lose out on duration and maybe  power strength. You build for duration, you lose out on range and maybe power strength as well. You could go for efficiency and power strength/armor, but you lose out on duration of the globes effectiveness. Thus, all that power is good for low level missions, but suffers quickly in high level content. The rest of his kit can't compensate for it, even though they shouldn't. Avalanche has a short CC and no utility, Freeze is single target, and that doesn't help when your squad is surrounded, and Ice Wave's functionality hinges on that stupid Augment that should've been added outright to his power to be useful later on in-game. If you build for duration, you lose out on range, and though you can maintain your defense on a small area, once the shield falls, you can throw up another that will fall just as quickly, or try and use the rest of your kit to compensate. But, alas, your kit is limited in range, and as none of his other powers benefit from duration, are hindered by range and inefficiency in casting costs. Of course, you can use your guns to compensate, but having to pick up the slack for your powers isn't what your guns are for, they're there for you to use at your discretion, and should not have to shore up the weakpoints of a power kit that needs improvements.

 

Snow Globe is not fine, it needs fixes, as does the rest of his kit. He's built to be the defensive battle mage frame of the game, other than Rhino. His  kit should have some semblances of that and be solid in what it does.

[Holeypaladin]

I agree that Frost really needs some love.  As an occasional pod glober, I feel like a one hit wonder, and never ever bother to use Frost outside of defense missions.

 

Globe is his only useful ability, and while powerful... I agree it should be health but not duration, like iron skin.  I'm a big fan of iron skin, and favor Rhino over Frost as a tank because of it.  I'd also like to see snow globe stop splash damage from affecting the people inside... considering how the bombards make it nearly impossible to run void defense past wave 20, these days.  I miss being able to defend that pod to wave 40.  In every other Void mission that runs off the ABC rotation, it's possible to make it to the second C rotation with a good team, but that's not really the case with defense anymore.

 

As for avalanche... it's really boring.  I agree 100% with turning it into a primarily CC ability that freezes opponents like Rhino Stomp.  A frost-themed warframe needs to be able to freeze everything around him in glaciers of ice, but avalanche doesn't do that.

[XToxinator]

I do think that frost prime needs a redesign on his apperance. Maybe having a longer horn just like loki prime got his one, tbh I don't really like his defualt helmet.

[TwiceDead]

So Frost is delegated it Globe duty, as Nekros is delegated to Desecrate duty? Is that what we're going to do to our frames? Just zone them off by their powers? Limit them to those one purposes just because you THINK it's ok? Don't forget that with that max efficiency you're losing out on your duration, the very thing that keeps ranged attacks out and us protected. NO FRAME should be forced to just use one power, or build one way, just because it fits the meta. He isn't just his snow globe, but that's what you're making him out to be, the frame with the Globe.

 

All his powers need some work, as many other frames also do.

 

His globe suffers from BOTH timer AND health, and thus he's gimped two ways. You build for efficiency, you lose out on duration and maybe  power strength. You build for duration, you lose out on range and maybe power strength as well. You could go for efficiency and power strength/armor, but you lose out on duration of the globes effectiveness. Thus, all that power is good for low level missions, but suffers quickly in high level content. The rest of his kit can't compensate for it, even though they shouldn't. Avalanche has a short CC and no utility, Freeze is single target, and that doesn't help when your squad is surrounded, and Ice Wave's functionality hinges on that stupid Augment that should've been added outright to his power to be useful later on in-game. If you build for duration, you lose out on range, and though you can maintain your defense on a small area, once the shield falls, you can throw up another that will fall just as quickly, or try and use the rest of your kit to compensate. But, alas, your kit is limited in range, and as none of his other powers benefit from duration, are hindered by range and inefficiency in casting costs. Of course, you can use your guns to compensate, but having to pick up the slack for your powers isn't what your guns are for, they're there for you to use at your discretion, and should not have to shore up the weakpoints of a power kit that needs improvements.

 

Snow Globe is not fine, it needs fixes, as does the rest of his kit. He's built to be the defensive battle mage frame of the game, other than Rhino. His  kit should have some semblances of that and be solid in what it does.

Yeah, nice strawmanning there. I have no idea where or how you managed to pull such a conclusion out of my "Snowglobe is fine" argument, but somehow you did. 

 

Freeze and Avalanche needs something else, I already admitted that and by no point did I say the following line: "He has snowglobe, frost is fine!", that was just you stuffing words in my mouth to make your argument seem convincing. No, I said "Snowglobe is fine", which it is.

 

The only reason people bring him along for any mission is because of how good snowglobe is and that is never going to change unless a better option comes along (where organized teams bring Radial Disarming lokis and Vaubans for instance). That single fact alone is testament as to why Snowglobe is fine as it is. Thanks to the Ice Wave augment, he is no longer delegated to Snowglobe duty either, as it's very potent CC. Only problem is that the augment is locked behind a grind-wall like everything else in the game.  

 

Snowglobe is and always will be fine. I made it 40 waves into T4 Defense purely from spamming a max-ranged max efficiency globe with no power-strength mods attached, relying purely on the 3 second invulnerability the globe already provides.

It's just boring, which is something i'd like to see changed. 

 

Freeze and Avalanche needs something else, as I have already admitted. I am resorting to repeating myself over and over to ensure you don't bend my words around and slap an entirely different meaning to my argument. 

 

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv TL;DR vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Snowglobe is fine thanks to the low-cost and spammability you can mod it for, and the fact that everybody still brings frost and his globe to defense proves it. 

Ice wave is fine augmented, meh' on it's own. 

Freeze and Avalanche needs change.

[Seanjuju]

Versatile Frost

Freeze: Charge for AOE, Ice duration reduced for each enemy frozen. Freeze duration reduced each instance frozen enemy takes damage. (doesn't include DoT) Charge:25E Single:15E

 

Ice Wave: Purely range based, cone, and status

 

Globe: Can be reinforced once by using fully-charged freeze which halves duration but adds a new 4-second instance of damage conversion to health. Rate of conversion based on power-strength. 

 

Avalanche: Initial flash freeze which halves shields then a growing storm of ice originating from frost pummels enemies. Duration of flash freeze reduced for each enemy affected. Closest enemies take the most instances of damage. Each instance of damage reduces flash freeze duration. Storm based on power-strength.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Seanjuju

[Tymerc]

Bump. These issues really need to be addressed.

[XToxinator]

This thread needs to stay alive!

[AlphaHorseman]

Many of the suggestions are good ones, and also there is some serious need for Frost to be reworked to fulfill his role better. That augment needs to be built into Ice Wave, and adding some scalability through CC and utility would help his kit go a very long way.

[XToxinator]

Many of the suggestions are good ones, and also there is some serious need for Frost to be reworked to fulfill his role better. That augment needs to be built into Ice Wave, and adding some scalability through CC and utility would help his kit go a very long way.

You're right. Frost really need some serious rework. I hope DE will make him more supportive and defensiv.e

[Insanityman]

I don't know... Recently I've been playing a lot of Frosty.  A LOT of Frosty.  I think he is in a pretty solid place.  With his 1 being duration based, 2 being range based, 3 being essentially efficiency based (at higher levels) and 4 based on power, he is a fairly balanced frame as all abilities work as advertised. 

 

He keeps up with the damage frames at starmap levels.  He has superior defences when compared to most frames.  He can give a not insubstantial buff to ally damage if you build for support.  He does have solid CC, in the form of a bandaid mod for ice wave, granted.  He can also do amazing CC with giant snow globes if you are willing to work with a short ranged team anyway (which btw works brilliantly).  

 

I've found frost plays exceptionally well with a methodical elimination playstyle.  Give him a heavy hitting short range sentinel  ( I like helios with radiation to cover me when I tunnel vision).  Grab a reliable medium-long range gun, add a little range to your powers, and a lot of efficiency, find a nice place where enemies are piling up, drop a globe and ice wave them into going nowhere. Headshots for days.  No other frames boasts that capability.  Because of the way his CC works, he has the easiest time lining up headshots on targets he has made himself responsible for.  Vauban's targets bounce while they hover, Rhino obscures enemy heads and had to move around them, Nekros' run away, Loki's run all over the place or start a mosh pit, Nyx - see Loki, Nova's explode obscuring vision, Cali's grab their faces and shake, Banshee's grab their ears and headbang.  Frost's essentially just get paralyzed.  

 

The CC attached to his 1 is not insubstantial.  With any reasonable headshotting weapon you can take care of most of a large enemy spawn, even at high levels with enough time.  Have a heavy sneak up? Ice it for the instant it takes to reload, position a decent globe and flatten it.  

 

STOP SUGGESTING A KNOCKBACK TO ICE WAVE. Sniper style weapons already suffer enough as it is.  At least when I'm looking for a relaxing run, I can hop on Frost, Ice Wave a few doors and methodically remove the gold hardware from a few hundred corrupted at my own pace.  A knockback would ruin one of the best CC's in the game.  (Also on the Ice Wave note: to those wanting a cone shape: that would likely be overpowered.  If you want balance run Stretch, it's enough most of the time. If you want a LOT of CC, run overextended.  It plays hell with globes but w/e.  You can Ice Wave across most of the largest tiles in the game with that, and your slow field is about 25 feet wide.  O.o if that isn't big enough, I don't know what is.)

 

The only thing I would like to see changed with Frost is maybe an augment mod for Avalanche that leaves a coat of ice on the ground that reduces friction so that you and allies can slide (a la maxed maglev) around fast, and just trip enemies as if you were using Serro or Orthos as a hockey stick.

 

If, and only if after a round of buffs to some other, far more desperate frames does it feel like Frost still needs a buff, then we should look at him. Other frames have been in worse places for a lot longer.  He does all things very well with what we have available, he just can't do all things with the pinnacle of effectiveness at the same time.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Insanityman

[Seanjuju]

I don't know... Recently I've been playing a lot of Frosty.  A LOT of Frosty.  I think he is in a pretty solid place.  With his 1 being duration based, 2 being range based, 3 being essentially efficiency based (at higher levels) and 4 based on power, he is a fairly balanced frame as all abilities work as advertised. 

It's not a good thing that his powers require different investments,

 

 

The only thing I would like to see changed with Frost is maybe an augment mod for Avalanche that leaves a coat of ice on the ground that reduces friction so that you and allies can slide (a la maxed maglev) around fast, and just trip enemies as if you were using Serro or Orthos as a hockey stick.

 

 

This has been brought up many times. I think there are better ways avalanche can be improved.

 

 

Enemies trapped in CC by all manner of powers can provide the same headshot results. Bouncing and slight movements are easily compensated for in such close quarters.

[TwiceDead]

It's not a good thing that his powers require different investments,

Quite on the contrary, it is a good thing. 

If there is only doorway to go through, proceeding is a no-brainer, but it's incredibly boring and linear. You want to make the player actually have multiple doorways to choose from, forcing them to weigh their options in a game where every door might lead to a different scenario. It only serves to deepen the experience.

 

Frost is sort of an example to, such as if you want to do some CC? Mod for range as Ice Wave will be your go-to power, with Snowglobe functioning as your own personal CC arena. Want to kill stuff? Want to tank with your globe and hit hard with avalanche? Mod for power. This is a practice more frames should be pursuing rather than always having a cookie-cutter path to go. 

 

Granted, I don't think Freeze is all that useful(Haven't managed to find a proper use for it yet), but the rest of his kit is. 

Edited December 30, 2014 by TwiceDead

[AlphaHorseman]

I don't know... Recently I've been playing a lot of Frosty.  A LOT of Frosty.  I think he is in a pretty solid place.  With his 1 being duration based, 2 being range based, 3 being essentially efficiency based (at higher levels) and 4 based on power, he is a fairly balanced frame as all abilities work as advertised. 

 

He keeps up with the damage frames at starmap levels.  He has superior defences when compared to most frames.  He can give a not insubstantial buff to ally damage if you build for support.  He does have solid CC, in the form of a bandaid mod for ice wave, granted.  He can also do amazing CC with giant snow globes if you are willing to work with a short ranged team anyway (which btw works brilliantly).  

 

I've found frost plays exceptionally well with a methodical elimination playstyle.  Give him a heavy hitting short range sentinel  ( I like helios with radiation to cover me when I tunnel vision).  Grab a reliable medium-long range gun, add a little range to your powers, and a lot of efficiency, find a nice place where enemies are piling up, drop a globe and ice wave them into going nowhere. Headshots for days.  No other frames boasts that capability.  Because of the way his CC works, he has the easiest time lining up headshots on targets he has made himself responsible for.  Vauban's targets bounce while they hover, Rhino obscures enemy heads and had to move around them, Nekros' run away, Loki's run all over the place or start a mosh pit, Nyx - see Loki, Nova's explode obscuring vision, Cali's grab their faces and shake, Banshee's grab their ears and headbang.  Frost's essentially just get paralyzed.  

 

The CC attached to his 1 is not insubstantial.  With any reasonable headshotting weapon you can take care of most of a large enemy spawn, even at high levels with enough time.  Have a heavy sneak up? Ice it for the instant it takes to reload, position a decent globe and flatten it.  

 

STOP SUGGESTING A KNOCKBACK TO ICE WAVE. Sniper style weapons already suffer enough as it is.  At least when I'm looking for a relaxing run, I can hop on Frost, Ice Wave a few doors and methodically remove the gold hardware from a few hundred corrupted at my own pace.  A knockback would ruin one of the best CC's in the game.  (Also on the Ice Wave note: to those wanting a cone shape: that would likely be overpowered.  If you want balance run Stretch, it's enough most of the time. If you want a LOT of CC, run overextended.  It plays hell with globes but w/e.  You can Ice Wave across most of the largest tiles in the game with that, and your slow field is about 25 feet wide.  O.o if that isn't big enough, I don't know what is.)

 

The only thing I would like to see changed with Frost is maybe an augment mod for Avalanche that leaves a coat of ice on the ground that reduces friction so that you and allies can slide (a la maxed maglev) around fast, and just trip enemies as if you were using Serro or Orthos as a hockey stick.

 

If, and only if after a round of buffs to some other, far more desperate frames does it feel like Frost still needs a buff, then we should look at him. Other frames have been in worse places for a lot longer.  He does all things very well with what we have available, he just can't do all things with the pinnacle of effectiveness at the same time.

I sniper Frost, I can sympathize somewhat, as I love using my Paris Prime with him as my main. That Freeze augment, yeah, I've got no problems with it. It's just the functionality of Freeze that needs to be improved. The Flight Time of the projectile and its potential to miss at longer ranges is what limits the power, not to mention you better hope it hits the target you're aiming at and doesn't hit someone or something else on the way there. The single target CC for this ability is also hindered by not only duration, but also HP. Should someone/something hit the target you've just used Freeze on, the target can break out of the Freeze due to its HP being so low, not to mention the duration could run out if there is an enemy mob that blocks the target you've just applied the Freeze to.

 

For Ice Wave, it just pisses me off that the augment that they just put out is something that should've been innate with Ice Wave, as it incorporates functionality through CC and Utility that would make this power scalable, as it needs to be. Having it come out as an augment sounds like a slap in the face to Frost players. I've stated in other posts, but I'll say it again, augments should not fix powers, augments should not band-aid them, they should add a dynamic to such powers to make them interesting, NOT viable. This augment, along with Nyx's Pacifying Bolts and Surging Dash for Excalibur, are outright band-aids because they use functions that make these powers scalable, but even less so in the case of Excalibur because of the 5 seconds your melee counter lasts.

 

For his globe, I like it, I do, but both limitations on time and HP make it problematic for higher level content because both limitations put you and your squad at greater risks than most other skills with this mechanic. For example, and this is a bad one, Rhino's Iron Skin has HP, and acts as a ward, blocking all incoming damage. Frost's Globe has both HP and duration, but also does not block grenades or AOE attacks, and presents a massive target on the battle field for enemies to focus on.

 

Avalanche, all I'd like is some scalability with the power, much like how you described, but not as an augment. It gives the skill a trait that would make it scalable into late-game, with CC and utility, but this is something that the power should have outright.

[Insanityman]

It's not a good thing that his powers require different investments,

 

 

This has been brought up many times. I think there are better ways avalanche can be improved.

 

 

Enemies trapped in CC by all manner of powers can provide the same headshot results. Bouncing and slight movements are easily compensated for in such close quarters.

As TwiceDead said it's actually a very good thing.  Frames end up overpowered if you don't have to think about how to build them.  Could you imagine if Rhino didn't have to think about duration for late game builds? DE would basically have to factor in Roar into all of their difficulty math because you would always have it around and running.  Frost has a few different options for builds, but he is also one of the lucky frames that doesn't heavily rely on all different stats to be a jack of most trades and a master of one at least.  You can build for damage, for CC, for self and ally protection and still do everything else on that list reliably.  Ember needs power strength, duration, efficiency, and range to use her kit anywheres close to fully, and if you try for a balanced build on her, you tank another power hard.  She needs the hard look before Frost.

 

I sniper Frost, I can sympathize somewhat, as I love using my Paris Prime with him as my main. That Freeze augment, yeah, I've got no problems with it. It's just the functionality of Freeze that needs to be improved. The Flight Time of the projectile and its potential to miss at longer ranges is what limits the power, not to mention you better hope it hits the target you're aiming at and doesn't hit someone or something else on the way there. The single target CC for this ability is also hindered by not only duration, but also HP. Should someone/something hit the target you've just used Freeze on, the target can break out of the Freeze due to its HP being so low, not to mention the duration could run out if there is an enemy mob that blocks the target you've just applied the Freeze to.

 

For Ice Wave, it just &!$$es me off that the augment that they just put out is something that should've been innate with Ice Wave, as it incorporates functionality through CC and Utility that would make this power scalable, as it needs to be. Having it come out as an augment sounds like a slap in the face to Frost players. I've stated in other posts, but I'll say it again, augments should not fix powers, augments should not band-aid them, they should add a dynamic to such powers to make them interesting, NOT viable. This augment, along with Nyx's Pacifying Bolts and Surging Dash for Excalibur, are outright band-aids because they use functions that make these powers scalable, but even less so in the case of Excalibur because of the 5 seconds your melee counter lasts.

 

For his globe, I like it, I do, but both limitations on time and HP make it problematic for higher level content because both limitations put you and your squad at greater risks than most other skills with this mechanic. For example, and this is a bad one, Rhino's Iron Skin has HP, and acts as a ward, blocking all incoming damage. Frost's Globe has both HP and duration, but also does not block grenades or AOE attacks, and presents a massive target on the battle field for enemies to focus on.

 

Avalanche, all I'd like is some scalability with the power, much like how you described, but not as an augment. It gives the skill a trait that would make it scalable into late-game, with CC and utility, but this is something that the power should have outright.

 

 

Powers should all be usable right out of the box, but I don't think that the entire toolkit needs to scale into higher levels (yet).  One power might not be enough, two is probably ok, three is going to earn that frame a " I R NECESSARY FOR ENDGAME" placard, and 4 would make them the new Rhino.

 

With one augment now, Frost scales super well into endgame.  With both augments, he is a force multiplier to be reckoned with.  Bringing him up in power in one single motion does more than disturb his place in the game, it shakes up the other frames as well.  I'm not against the eventuality of all frames having 4 powers that scale to endgame, what I don't want is only two or three frames having that at any time because they will unfairly influence other aspects of the game and make the other frames miserable in the meantime.  The balancing needs to be done in passes, step by step where frames are modified and elevated and taken down a peg or two, at a pace where we can step back and let cool heads prevail and work out the bugs that come running with each subsequent pass.

 

Freeze should probably be able to freeze a target for a more substantial duration, but I think it's augment should work more like a corrupted mod, where it removes some of the duration (bringing it back in line with how it is now) and gives it more speed.  You hit your targets at range more reliably, then you have a smaller window to make that one shot count.  It goes from "get out of my face" to "say bye bye to your face". It doesn't necessarily make it less or more useful, just changes how you play with it.  

 

As for Avalanche, it's in a weird spot.  It positively destroys corpus, well past 30 if you build for it.  Too much more utility like the old 5s perfect paralyze it had makes it way to strong for headshots.  It already has a small stun attached to it, it's just that the caster can't take full advantage of it like his allies can.  Any more in that direction and it becomes too good.  Since it already hits hard, making it increase damage dealt by allies or received by enemies puts it into "equip fleeting expertise, spam 4" territory. We don't need that, even if it doesn't stack past the first cast.  Having it reduce incoming damage or slow enemies or put up barriers of some sort starts stepping on the toes of Ice Wave and Snow Globe.  Hence my suggestion of it increasing the move speed of those who move with style. Or perhaps make it so that enemies knocked prone slip and stumble, increasing the time it takes them to stand up.  Defensive utility without a massive multiplicative upside.  It would also favor ground slams or trip maneuvers in melee, a synergy, but not with something thats already overpowered.

[AlphaHorseman]

As TwiceDead said it's actually a very good thing.  Frames end up overpowered if you don't have to think about how to build them.  Could you imagine if Rhino didn't have to think about duration for late game builds? DE would basically have to factor in Roar into all of their difficulty math because you would always have it around and running.  Frost has a few different options for builds, but he is also one of the lucky frames that doesn't heavily rely on all different stats to be a jack of most trades and a master of one at least.  You can build for damage, for CC, for self and ally protection and still do everything else on that list reliably.  Ember needs power strength, duration, efficiency, and range to use her kit anywheres close to fully, and if you try for a balanced build on her, you tank another power hard.  She needs the hard look before Frost.

 

 

 

Powers should all be usable right out of the box, but I don't think that the entire toolkit needs to scale into higher levels (yet).  One power might not be enough, two is probably ok, three is going to earn that frame a " I R NECESSARY FOR ENDGAME" placard, and 4 would make them the new Rhino.

 

With one augment now, Frost scales super well into endgame.  With both augments, he is a force multiplier to be reckoned with.  Bringing him up in power in one single motion does more than disturb his place in the game, it shakes up the other frames as well.  I'm not against the eventuality of all frames having 4 powers that scale to endgame, what I don't want is only two or three frames having that at any time because they will unfairly influence other aspects of the game and make the other frames miserable in the meantime.  The balancing needs to be done in passes, step by step where frames are modified and elevated and taken down a peg or two, at a pace where we can step back and let cool heads prevail and work out the bugs that come running with each subsequent pass.

 

Freeze should probably be able to freeze a target for a more substantial duration, but I think it's augment should work more like a corrupted mod, where it removes some of the duration (bringing it back in line with how it is now) and gives it more speed.  You hit your targets at range more reliably, then you have a smaller window to make that one shot count.  It goes from "get out of my face" to "say bye bye to your face". It doesn't necessarily make it less or more useful, just changes how you play with it.  

 

As for Avalanche, it's in a weird spot.  It positively destroys corpus, well past 30 if you build for it.  Too much more utility like the old 5s perfect paralyze it had makes it way to strong for headshots.  It already has a small stun attached to it, it's just that the caster can't take full advantage of it like his allies can.  Any more in that direction and it becomes too good.  Since it already hits hard, making it increase damage dealt by allies or received by enemies puts it into "equip fleeting expertise, spam 4" territory. We don't need that, even if it doesn't stack past the first cast.  Having it reduce incoming damage or slow enemies or put up barriers of some sort starts stepping on the toes of Ice Wave and Snow Globe.  Hence my suggestion of it increasing the move speed of those who move with style. Or perhaps make it so that enemies knocked prone slip and stumble, increasing the time it takes them to stand up.  Defensive utility without a massive multiplicative upside.  It would also favor ground slams or trip maneuvers in melee, a synergy, but not with something thats already overpowered.

I like the tradeoff variation with his kit, go with power strength or efficiency and you might lose out with duration or range. You guys are right, kits should have tradeoffs, but in terms of scalability through CC or utility, I hope it isn't lost too much, as kits may become insufficient later on in content.

 

To my post, ah, I see what you mean.

 

For the concept of augments, I really do like them, but one thing I don't like about them is that they're currently being used both as tune ups to powers, which in my opinion they should be, but also patch ups. The Freeze augment I like, it adds a dynamic to the power that wouldn't be something that the power needs to be viable. The Ice Wave augment, ugh I hate it, you saw why.

 

Augments themselves, I would say that slight upgrades are what they should be, for the flak we have to go through to get them. Grinding through syndicates, sacrificing prime parts, formae, even reactors and catalysts, on top of credits, and then having to deal with death squads and the massive costs of the mods, they should be slight upgrades to the powers. Having them be detrimental in a sense would, in my opinion, make them less appealing, and not worth all that grinding. For the hell we go through, I would hope that they were worth the time and money spent.

 

For the shaking up of the frame layouts with kit buffs, I see what you mean. Still, as a main Frost, I hope they do give the kit the scalability and utility that an area deny tank like him should have, in my opinion. It will make him more appealing, I won't fault you that, as you are right, but I can see how some would see this as making him more necessary in the minds of some players. The thing I dislike about how DE does things is that they touch one thing, and then they let it sit on the back burner for too long. Take for instance the changes to Ember, they slightly buffed her a few months back, but haven't improved her kit ever since. Same could be said about other systems of the game, but this isn't the thread for that. I would rather them get it all out in one go, than leave it as a half finished project before moving on to the next.

 

Avalanche, ah, I see what you mean with the damage mitigation. Maybe then that enemies would be knocked down and have the cold proc applied to them? Or just the cold proc should they survive. That way, there isn't any damage increase, but there's utility and CC in the skill that helps it survive later on, as an ultimate should. Your suggestion about having it be a nice incentive for players to use their movements sounds fun, haha, that would be a nice addition to the power.

Edited December 30, 2014 by AlphaHorseman

[XxMAGGOTxX]

Come on guys, keep this thread alive! We need DE to do something about Frost pretty badly. He's not in a good place, never has and never will be unless something is done. Frost needs to be able to scale with enemies but unfortunately, he can't. 

[XToxinator]

Come on guys, keep this thread alive! We need DE to do something about Frost pretty badly. He's not in a good place, never has and never will be unless something is done. Frost needs to be able to scale with enemies but unfortunately, he can't.

Ok than, I'll palace my ability ideas for frost and once 2015 comes I hope DE would bump into this thread and will do something about frost.

Issues: Frost do needs to have more armor for globe and more of a defensive skills have aoe on Freeze, Ice wave have knockbacks and to stay there for a few seconds, as for snowglobe remove duration and put shields and incresed health max to 5k also its range to 6m or 7m and avalanche more CC and freezing duration.

Fixes: Now his fixed on his stats and abilities.

Stats:

Sheilds: 200

Health: 100

Armor: 400

Speed: 0.9

Freeze:

what to fix?

- large aoe raduis damage

- Trail of ice after casting ability

- Ice reduces enemy stats sheilds, armor, speed

- Faster flight speed

What to remove?

- Its high damage to low

- Remove the projectiles and make it like a freeze blast

(NEW IDEA)Ice Builder: If frost activates it. Then frost could use 4 different skill. Each 2 is offensive and defenive abilities. 2 offensive is Ice wave and ice impact and 2 defensive is Ice path and Snow golem.

Snowglobe:

what to fix?

- Its max health has to be at least 5k

- It range has to be 6m or 7m to cover up the power core

- Have a Expolosive ice damage that damage and freezes enemies in and out the globe.

What to remove?

- duration timer

Avalache:

what to fix?

- Have 6s duration freeze

- Bonus damage to enemies that surive the attack

- Have more CC

What to remove?

- none

The new ability idea Ice Builder is option. I would think that Frost should be a Ice man too something like Mr Freeze( DC comics).

Edited January 1, 2015 by Xtoxinkilla

[CapedBaldy]

Avalanche stuns Frost longer than it stuns enemies. Best 4th ability ever.

[XToxinator]

Avalanche stuns Frost longer than it stuns enemies. Best 4th ability ever.

Agreed

[XxMAGGOTxX]

Avalanche stuns Frost longer than it stuns enemies. Best 4th ability ever.

LMAO +1

 

And yet people say he's fine where he is. 

[AlphaHorseman]

Avalanche stuns Frost longer than it stuns enemies. Best 4th ability ever.

Not only that, but it would be nice to see the skill actually have some CC, Utility, or something akin to make it scalable into higher content, as of right now, it's just a damage power, which falls of quickly when enemy units have higher health, armor, or resistances to ice damage.

[castem]

I agree with the OP.

I like both Frost and Frost Prime...and although I use him a decent amount, I can't help but think that there's a ton of potential squandered.

Frost isn't the frame I think that needs the *most* attention, but he could still definitely use some attention/tweaks when DE gets the chance.

[AlphaHorseman]

The kit of his powers is a somewhat shaky one. What makes it shakey is that the mechanics are clunky for his Freeze, his Ice Wave does not scale, his Snow Globe is alright, but has its limits, and his Avalanche has no CC or scalability.

 

What his kit needs to make it solid is changes to his powers that incorporate CC, utility, or/and scalability.

 

To ensure that his Freeze works better, maybe it can have a faster travel time, or be hitscan, and higher baseline HP before the Freeze breaks, and larger AOE.

 

Ice Wave needs the scalability in utility that the augment gives, but outright, not as an augment. Perhaps enemies that survive the initial Ice Wave could be frozen in place for a while? As to ensure that the augment that we just got isn't wasted, and also that Knockback seems somewhat counterproductive to the use of the new augment. I'd say OK for the knockback if we have another augment incoming for the ability that synergizes with this, of which I hope there will be.

 

Snow Globe, hmm, its a good area denial tool, but maybe, should the globe go down before the duration is up, have it "shatter" and apply the freeze or cold proc to enemies within and around it. The radius of this would be affected by range mods of course. Should the Globe expire due to the duration, then only have enemies that are within the globe have the freeze proc applied, affected by duration mods of course. This gives Snow Globe utility that makes it worth more than just its HP bar, as that seems to peter off quickly in higher level content. It doesn't outright make the globe more powerful with strength, but incorporates a dynamic that makes the globe workable under stressful situations when defending objectives or squads even as it falls.

 

For Avalanche, we could have it where enemies that survive the initial cast have the cold proc applied to them, ensuring that you have time to react to them if your powers damage proves insufficient. This adds utility to the power and also allows the power a trait I feel should be built into it to make it scalable and workable for more than its damage.