Nullifier's Bubble Isn't Affected By Damage, And Here's Proof

[-InV-igo95862]

Swap new weapons, strategise, move around while reloading, use objects as cover etc..

 

I mean, there are the movement keys and other manoeuvres for a reason, other than being just there. 

 

Or take Boltor Prime. Never swap weapons, just hoot everything on screen, no need to move around....

 

If Nulifiers were equally difficult to assault rifle users as they are to bows or sniper ones I would call it a challenge. But right now they are just limiting your options to Boltor Prime, Soma Prime or Synoid Grammacor

[Renegade343]

Or take Boltor Prime. Never swap weapons, just hoot everything on screen, no need to move around....

All I am stating is that there are lots more other options than most players believe there are. 

 

Sometimes, I think the community should go through a few rounds of mandatory PVP just to open their eyes on weapon options, but I digress. 

[-InV-igo95862]

All I am stating is that there are lots more other options than most players believe there are. 

 

Nullifiers only eliminate options. You are screwed by them if you go slow fire rate weapons with high damage.

[Renegade343]

Nullifiers only eliminate options. You are screwed by them if you go slow fire rate weapons with high damage.

Lex disagrees. Lex disagrees very strongly. 

 

And also Panthera and Miter. 

[geninrising]

I'm going to say right now that it leaves a bad taste in the mouth for snipers that a unit can make not only himself, but everything else nigh immune to it.

 

Most of us don't even want to be 'accommodated' to. We just don't want to be hindered unreasonably when the game already disadvantages players with slow firing weapons by sending hordes. It is already almost mandatory to mod a Shred or a Metal Auger on snipers. In the end, our only real saving grace is our 'overkill' damage coupled with the accuracy.

 

A Nullifier then comes into play and sucks in all that 'overkill' damage down to 400. I can reach 400 damage with just a Serration on Vectis. Meanwhile, weapons that don't hit the 100 break point get their 'damage' buffed to 100. Some High RoF weapons break the 400 break point incredibly easily, getting the best of both worlds. That's a nice cushion for high RoF weapons, but where's the cushion for low RoF weapons? And I can't even use my 'overkill' damage against the other enemies because for some reason, this high priority target that spawns rather often and has nigh miniboss status can make everyone else strong against snipers.

 

In order not to waste my damage, I have to pop into the bubble, risking death from one shots and CC all the while, take a shot at the Nullifier, and run out, effectively losing the range specialty of snipers. By then it's better to just bring a Boltor Prime since the sniper niche is so disadvantaged to be in that bringing one is a liability rather than an asset. A Boltor Prime does the same job better, safer, faster and gives me more viable options, especially when you bring Nullifiers into play.

 

Come on, this is just being incredibly mean to anybody plays snipers. There's nearly no reason at all to use sniper when you strip away all their advantages by throwing ONE unit in play. If this in an attempt to shake up our strategies, you aren't really shaking up our tactics, you're just making us deviate to the already dominant Boltor Prime, Soma Prime strategy. And consequently, make anyone who invested heavily into low RoF weapons very unhappy.

 

Something about them has to change. Something about enemy design as a whole also has to change.

 

Oh, and it would help out a lot if they didn't one shot us so often so we have more room of error to do our stuff.

this

[-InV-igo95862]

Lex disagrees. Lex disagrees very strongly. 

 

And also Panthera and Miter. 

 

Show me how fast they can destroy the bubble.

[Eric1738]

Swap new weapons, strategise, move around while reloading, use objects as cover etc..

 

I mean, there are the movement keys and other manoeuvres for a reason, other than being just there. 

not sure what you are trying to tell us. we KNOW how to deal with nullifiers. our concern is that nullifiers put disadvantages on certain types of weapons without good reasons. and some of those weapons are already underused. If nullifiers are designed to make me swap boltor prime for some other strategic weapons, i would love it. but no it forces us to swap out bows, snipers, shotguns etc. and furhter consolidates the power of staple boltor prime, soma prime and synoid gammacor. it narrows down the choice of viable weapons to an obnoxious level. by any means it's bad for the health of warframe.

[Tyrian3k]

Lex disagrees. Lex disagrees very strongly. 

 

And also Panthera and Miter.

Destroying a Nullifier's bubble with a Lex? Really? Not like you'll have to dump at least one whole magazine into the bubble for it to burst.

Panthera can only do it quickly with its secondary fire which I would not recommend trying since you'd easily be shot at that kind of range. You'd be better off heading right in at that point, but that's usually suicide if there's a bunch of heavy grineer waiting inside. At long range the Panthera and Miter won't work well when trying to pop the bubble at all due to the slow rate of fire.

not sure what you are trying to tell us. we KNOW how to deal with nullifiers. our concern is that nullifiers put disadvantages on certain types of weapons without good reasons. and some of those weapons are already underused. If nullifiers are designed to make me swap boltor prime for some other strategic weapons, i would love it. but no it forces us to swap out bows, snipers, shotguns etc. and furhter consolidates the power of staple boltor prime, soma prime and synoid gammacor. it narrows down the choice of viable weapons to an obnoxious level. by any means it's bad for the health of warframe.

It narrows it down to the weapons that already are the most effective ones to begin with, which I too find highly annoying. If there are weapons that need something that makes them a better choice, it's everything except for your average automatic rifle.

[Renegade343]

Show me how fast they can destroy the bubble.

Given a Lex with 1.1 fire rate, then modding it for the Void, that means the first shot would decrease a Corrupted Nullifier Crewmen shield by 16%. Then, the second shot will decrease 16% of the 84%, and so on. 

 

That means at a full magazine, the shield would have decreased by: 

 

1 - 0.16 - (0.16*0.84) - (0.16*0.7056) - ... = approximately 65% of the bubble shrunken down in 5 seconds. 

 

Do it again, and it will pop, meaning it would take approximately 10 seconds to destroy it (which I find alright, since I actually utilise most of the movement mechanics in the game). 

 

Of course, since I do use a Gunslinger mod (because I can handle the recoil to a very good degree to get consistent headshots, while still having a very high damage mod build with it), that means fire rate is around 1.9 shots per second. That would mean I can shrink the shield by approximately 65% in just over 3 seconds, and take approximately 6 seconds to destroy it. 

 

In the end, for both modded and unmodded, the unmodded one takes an acceptable amount of time for me while moving very quickly, while the modded one is also alright. 

[Tyrian3k]

Given a Lex with 1.1 fire rate, then modding it for the Void, that means the first shot would decrease a Corrupted Nullifier Crewmen shield by 16%. Then, the second shot will decrease 16% of the 84%, and so on. 

 

That means at a full magazine, the shield would have decreased by: 

 

1 - 0.16 - (0.16*0.84) - (0.16*0.7056) - ... = approximately 65% of the bubble shrunken down in 5 seconds. 

 

Do it again, and it will pop, meaning it would take approximately 10 seconds to destroy it (which I find alright, since I actually utilise most of the movement mechanics in the game). 

 

Of course, since I do use a Gunslinger mod (because I can handle the recoil to a very good degree to get consistent headshots, while still having a very high damage mod build with it), that means fire rate is around 1.9 shots per second. That would mean I can shrink the shield by approximately 65% in just over 3 seconds, and take approximately 6 seconds to destroy it. 

 

In the end, for both modded and unmodded, the unmodded one takes an acceptable amount of time for me while moving very quickly, while the modded one is also alright.

A Boltor Prime takes 0.9 seconds to create enough hits to pop it. How are 6-10 seconds reasonable with that in mind? Do you think Nullifiers come alone and you won't be under constant fire from rocket launchers, lasers and machine guns during all that time? 6-10 seconds are a freakishly long time in a fast paced game like Warframe.

Also, A Lex likely cannot do anything at all once you're faced with two nullifiers on top of each other since one shield will regenerate in the time it takes you to bring the other down a bit.

[Renegade343]

A Boltor Prime takes 0.9 seconds to create enough hits to pop it. How are 6-10 seconds reasonable with that in mind? Do you think Nullifiers come alone and you won't be under constant fire from rocket launchers, lasers and machine guns during all that time? 6-10 seconds are a freakishly long time in a fast paced game like Warframe.

I actually use parkour and fast movement to compensate, while picking off other enemies here and there. 

 

And before I forget: Lex Prime. One can use that, equip Gunslinger mod as well (to make it shoot 3.6 rounds per second) while having all the damage mods for the Void, and it would make the shield shrink to approximately 20% of its original size in 8 shots (which would take 2.2 seconds). Fire again to destroy it, and it would take around 4.4 seconds to break (disregarding reload time, in which I think I also disregarded that with the above calculation with the Lex + Gunslinger). 

 

Of course, I am doing all the calculations in my head, but even so, it is still acceptable. 

 

Also, A Lex likely cannot do anything at all once you're faced with two nullifiers on top of each other since one shield will regenerate in the time it takes you to bring the other down a bit.

Get one down, murder the exposed Nullifier Crewmen, then murder the other one. 

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I actually use parkour and fast movement to compensate, while picking off other enemies here and there. 

 

And before I forget: Lex Prime. One can use that, equip Gunslinger mod as well (to make it shoot 3.6 rounds per second) while having all the damage mods for the Void, and it would make the shield shrink to approximately 20% of its original size in 8 shots (which would take 2.2 seconds). Fire again to destroy it, and it would take around 4.4 seconds to break (disregarding reload time, in which I think I also disregarded that with the above calculation with the Lex + Gunslinger). 

 

Of course, I am doing all the calculations in my head, but even so, it is still acceptable. 

 

Until the shield regenerates while you were reloading.

 

Get one down, murder the exposed Nullifier Crewmen, then murder the other one. 

 

The shields often overlap completely, and if they didn't when the Nullifiers spawned, they will when you shrink one of them down enough. They shield each others' shields, meaning that they are both twice as hard to kill.

[Tyrian3k]

I actually use parkour and fast movement to compensate, while picking off other enemies here and there. 

 

And before I forget: Lex Prime. One can use that, equip Gunslinger mod as well (to make it shoot 3.6 rounds per second) while having all the damage mods for the Void, and it would make the shield shrink to approximately 20% of its original size in 8 shots (which would take 2.2 seconds). Fire again to destroy it, and it would take around 4.4 seconds to break (disregarding reload time, in which I think I also disregarded that with the above calculation with the Lex + Gunslinger). 

 

Of course, I am doing all the calculations in my head, but even so, it is still acceptable. 

 

Get one down, murder the exposed Nullifier Crewmen, then murder the other one.

Lex Prime still takes more than four times of a Boltor. Not acceptable.

You cannot just "get one down". Both bubbles protect both Nullifiers and you always hit the outermost one. If you don't go melee, you'll have to bring down both bubbles before you can even hit one of the Nullifiers. If you don't hit one for a moment, it'll just regenerate, making you waste magazine after magazine on slower weapons.

You also can't pick off other enemies all the time if you want that bubble to burst at all with a slow weapon like a Lex.

[Renegade343]

You cannot just "get one down". Both bubbles protect both Nullifiers and you always hit the outermost one. If you don't go melee, you'll have to bring down both bubbles before you can even hit one of the Nullifiers. If you don't hit one for a moment, it'll just regenerate, making you waste magazine after magazine on slower weapons.

You alternate between the bubbles to keep them not regenerating. 

[traybong111]

You alternate between the bubbles to keep them not regenerating. 

 

Their bubbles regenerate in less than 1 second (reload time of Detron) after shrinking completely. It's pretty obvious you're refuting just to refute rather than actually possessing some idea of how your numbers and suggestions might work in game so please stop spewing nonsense. 

 

I love my Lex Prime to bits, but it won't be taking out overlapping Nullifiers' bubbles. Honestly the quickest way to get rid of them seems to be sticking a Torid cloud on them (which isn't a high RoF weapon, but its AoE and DoT pretty much do the same thing on Nullies.) 

[Renegade343]

Their bubbles regenerate in less than 1 second (reload time of Detron) after shrinking completely. It's pretty obvious you're refuting just to refute rather than actually possessing some idea of how your numbers and suggestions might work in game so please stop spewing nonsense. 

They (after shields are blown out) actually take roughly the equivalent amount of time to start regenerating as our shields after not taking damage, if my tests are done correctly. 

 

I can prove that once I get back to my PC. 

[GamePois0n]

yea, this is just logic. not a complaint something that makes total sense, but here come to comments about how u need skill to kill them. EX. why dont u just slide inside the bubble and kill them.

You can't really slide inside if there are... bombards :(

[Renegade343]

Their bubbles regenerate in less than 1 second (reload time of Detron) after shrinking completely. It's pretty obvious you're refuting just to refute rather than actually possessing some idea of how your numbers and suggestions might work in game so please stop spewing nonsense. 

And I actually got the data now: 

 

Nullifier Crewmen shields have a delay of around 3.7 - 3.9 seconds (±0.2 seconds) after shrinking completely, before regenerating. I can attest to this because I used a Grinlok without any reload mods, which would make it have a reload time of 2.1s, and after I dumped six rounds into the shield to destroy it, then reload, the shield has not regenerated yet. 

 

So, that statement is false. 

[Rehero]

And I actually got the data now: 

 

Nullifier Crewmen shields have a delay of around 3.7 - 3.9 seconds (±0.2 seconds) after shrinking completely, before regenerating. I can attest to this because I used a Grinlok without any reload mods, which would make it have a reload time of 2.1s, and after I dumped six rounds into the shield to destroy it, then reload, the shield has not regenerated yet. 

 

So, that statement is false. 

I still have yet to see you, or anyone for that matter, explain why it is imperative for the mob to killed faster with certain weapons. This is a question, that after however long these threads have been showing up, still hasn't been answered. It is actually getting frustrating, people are throwing around all these these counterarguments (which by the way seem really silly) but why haven't you been able to produce a reason for them being they way they are. There are healthy aspects to the mob which are more than welcome, it just happens that slow fire and shotgun weapons have to much difficulty when fighting them. Balance is all that is being asked for why is that a problem?

Edited January 29, 2015 by Rehero

[Renegade343]

I still have yet to see you, or anyone for that matter, explain why it is imperative for the mob to killed faster with certain weapons. This is a question, that after however long these threads have been showing up, still hasn't been answered. It is actually getting frustrating, people are throwing around all these these counterarguments (which by the way seem really silly) but why haven't you been able to produce a reason for them being they way they are. There are healthy aspects to the mob which are more than welcome, it just happens that slow fire and shotgun weapons have to much difficulty when fighting them. Balance is all that is being asked for why is that a problem?

The reason for that appearing and having that is: 

 

1. Curbing down on ability spamming. 

2. Actually paying some attention as to what is going on. 

[Rehero]

The reason for that appearing and having that is: 

 

1. Curbing down on ability spamming. 

2. Actually paying some attention as to what is going on. 

No. That isn't what I am referring to. I am asking why it is imperative for certain weapon types to have a clear and undeniable advantage when taking out their shield in comparison to others. Lowering ability spam is a completely separate purpose for the shield, people obviously want to take them out first and this is also fine. But why do lower rate of fire, high damage weapons NEED to be lesser in comparison to other weapon types when it comes to taking the shield out?

Edited January 29, 2015 by Rehero

[Renegade343]

No. That isn't what I am referring to. I am asking why it is imperative for certain weapon types to have a clear and undeniable advantage when taking out their shield in comparison to others. Lowering ability spam is a completely separate purpose for the shield, people obviously want to take them out first and this is also fine. But why do lower rate of fire, high damage weapons NEED to be lesser in comparison to other fire rates when it comes to taking the shield out?

Because you need units that are resistant to something, weak to something else, and actually have some thought behind what to choose every now and then.

 

To place out a quick comparison, take Runescape. It has different types of weapons, in which some of them are good against chainmail-wearing enemies (Stabbing-orientated), some of them are good against platemail-wearing enemies (Crushing-orientated), and some of them are good against leather-wearing enemies (Slashing-orientated). Slashing-orientated weapons are not going to go down too well against platemail-wearing enemies, because they have high defence against slashing damage. While yes, you can use them to do damage against platemail-wearing enemies, and that there are some slashing-orientated swords that would defy this trend, being good against just about everything, generally, you are going to fall short using slashing-orientated weapons against platemail-wearing enemies. 

 

That can be applied over to Warframe in terms of the Nullifier Crewmen. Slower fire rate weapons will generally suffer against them (the degree of it depends partly on the user), and that there are some that do not care about this whatsoever, but generally, the Nullifier Crewmen has (and is meant to have) a weakness and resistance to weapon, other than itself. 

 

In short, there are going to be some misfits with the system every now and then, but as of right now, they are working quite fine (along with a few more small tweaks). 

[Rehero]

That argument would hold true if they were strong against the weapons that already held a higher efficiency in more situations.

 

Most of the weapons suffering against the nullifiers were already niche weapons that saw very little play. The weapons that are strong against it are the ones you see in the vast majority of matches you play. That justification makes literally 0 sense in this case. The mob was designed to stop abilities and it is obviously a key target this is fine, there is no reason the mob should also heavily punish an entire set of weapons at the same time. Especially when we are supposed to use our weapons to break the shield in the first place. I see nothing negative coming from them tweaking it to be the same speed of destruction across the board.

 

 

It doesn't do anything healthy for build choices as it simply throws more dirt in the faces of those who didn't want to use the boltor, soma and other such weapons.

 

Also the runescape comparison holds true to our damage system and cannot be applied to this mob as there is literally only one mob doing this.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Rehero

[Renegade343]

Most of the weapons suffering against the nullifiers were already niche weapons that saw very little play. The weapons that are strong against it are the ones you see in the vast majority of matches you play. That justification makes literally 0 sense in this case. The mob was designed to stop abilities and it is obviously a key target this is fine, there is no reason the mob should also heavily punish an entire set of weapons at the same time. Especially when we are supposed to use our weapons to break the shield in the first place. I see nothing negative coming from them tweaking it to be the same speed of destruction across the board.

Really? 

 

I see quite a few Mareloks. I also see a few Lex Primes here and there. A couple of Supras, lots of Latrons, and quite a few Lankas during Corpus Defence missions and such. 

 

And let me repeat myself: Yes, I do agree to a few small tweaks, but on the whole, this unit is fine. 

[xyLoneZ]

Really? 

 

I see quite a few Mareloks. I also see a few Lex Primes here and there. A couple of Supras, lots of Latrons, and quite a few Lankas during Corpus Defence missions and such. 

 

And let me repeat myself: Yes, I do agree to a few small tweaks, but on the whole, this unit is fine. 

There must be something wrong in your head if you think the unit is fine. You're either stupid or just ignorant.