Nullifiers Need A Change

[geninrising]

This is part of an ongoing feeling that we are having our playstyles shoe horned into a meta that actually removes player choice.

This goes directly against DE's self stated design imperative of allowing players to choose how they play the game and what they use to tackle it's challenges.

 

One fix I can see for this would be to include weak points on the bubble that allowed high caliber weapons with slower fire rate to pop the bubbles in a fraction of the time it takes Automatic weapons to pop them. It would be necessary that they also be affected by Critical hits as high damage low ROF weapons often utilize critical hits as a massive amount of their damage.

 

The following post from another of the nullifier discussions provides a good idea on why nullifiers are thematically broken.

Honestly I would prefer his fix as it feels more thematically appropriate but DE may feel it goes to far and takes away the units importance on the field.

 

It comes from an argument about whether or not Bubbles from Nullifiers scaled from damage or not. Which they do not if the masses were thinking they did take your Opticor out with a 5 forma build then take a basic Braton from the store. No way it should take a 5 forma Opti longer to kill the bubble than a basic braton. Anyway that's not the point of this post.

 

EdgeKasim

Gold Novice

• 
• PC MEMBER
• 171 posts

Posted 29 December 2014 - 08:09 PM

honestly i took time deciding wether or not to post in here as it seems to have attracted the worst types of an allready hurtling down hill community.

 

the nullifiers are bad period not because of what they are but because of their implementation.  there are many different ways to play this game...run and gun, melee, caster, and hybrids of each.  now the nullifyers effectivly removed caster from the viable playstyle list and made melee go from high risk high reward to down right towering risk with little reward.

 

alot of people have mentioned things in here that are very true like how any loadout after modding should be viable for any high tier mission bar some of the less desireble low tier wepons, not because of their fireing mechanics but because of their new game levels of damage per bullet (i dont give a crap about all this min-maxing DPS bull). 

 

one of the main issued at hand here is not really the shrinkage or the buble based on damage or speed its the fact that it even blocks bullets to begin with.  somone rightly mentioned this earlyer in the thread which i can guess alot of people either skimmed over and ignored or just flat out didnt read.  they are nullifiers to slow down the caster type players from clearing rooms.  having them deal high damage is fine ONLY if their shields dont stop bullets, even tho technically it isnt even a shield as its just a no-power zone.

 

this is the main problem with nullifiers, they are a speed bump for a certain playstyle (honestly i didnt care about people playing the press 4 to win way either as its their choice if they want to, some of you forget its an online game with players all over the world and if people play in a way you dont like then you dont have to play with them), and being the speed bump that they are theyshould only really affect that type of playstyle, sort of like how some anti melee units in the grineer faction can still get gunned down like theyre nothing but can block all the swings you throw at them....that was good design...

 

anywho my idea to an ideal fix to this would be to have the nullifires zone not stop bullets at all, just powers, that way there would be no need for them to have their own hp or even shrink.  this would keep them as a super high danger type of enemy for casters like theyre suppose to be but at the same time not a problem for the gunners, who actually like to pick wepons for reasons other than DPS or fire rate.  and if that angers the more a*al players who are never happy untill they chase away all players other than themselves then you could always make it so the zone again doesnt shrink but reduced the damage of a bullet by a certain percentage...or flat out removes all elemental damage.

 

in fact thats an idea for an anti gunner type unit...make them immune to elemental damages of all kind (not base damages) and make then succeptable to powers and melee.  then youll have your balence

Edited January 12, 2015 by geninrising

[Alighierian]

for anti-gunner we have the frost globe enemies. Those don't stop spells but they stop bullets.

(but those are eximus, so they only show up now and then. Something like an enemy which 'disables' ele damage on weapons, as suggested in that post, isn't a bad idea at all)

 

I completely agree that nullifiers' orb should do nothing and then absolutely nothing to stop gunfire of any kind

Edited December 31, 2014 by Alighierian

[IlluminaZero]

Whatever effect the nullifer shields have it should be consistent between weapon types. If DE designed an upper limit such that high power weapons could not quickly overpower the shields they need to equally make the lower limit FAR lower to make it such that high ROF weapons aren't so obviously benefited. (If the total HP is low, increase total HP and raise upper cap proportionately.)

 

I really wonder what the outcry would be like then. But I personally would be OK so long as the design is consistent and not illogical. The issue then though is that we have something of a normal mook that makes eximus look like incompetent idiots... I mean come on, 9 HEK shots to just take down the shields of one nullifer? So 2.25 full magazines of an upper tier automatic weapon (Say, Soma) to simply remove the shields on ONE nullifier? That would be hilarious.

Edited January 1, 2015 by IlluminaZero

[Feallike]

O I HAVE A IDEA! MAKE MAGNET PROC DESTROY THE SHIELD! :D It would make magnet more viable!

[Rehero]

I am alright with anything that causes nullifier discomfort to be equal across all weapon types.

[geninrising]

Shameless bump as this is the best solution I have seen for the Nullifier problem!

[geninrising]

Bump!

[Azawarau]

It affects more than just 4 to win and 4 to win didnt even get the worst of it by far

[HibikiGanaha]

I agree with all of that.  It was a garbage, band-aid solution to stop people on interception from standing around pressing 4.  They just moved to grineer interception and nullifiers are still around making the game unfun for caster frames (other than nova since nova is broken and op).

[Azawarau]

I agree with all of that.  It was a garbage, band-aid solution to stop people on interception from standing around pressing 4.  They just moved to grineer interception and nullifiers are still around making the game unfun for caster frames (other than nova since nova is broken and op).

There were players suggesting a mechanic that simply cancels powers

 

Im sure the design council slipped the idea in a few times

[geninrising]

Clearly though what we got was a mechanic that cancels any kind of counterplay except bullet hoses  and that is what I am trying to remedy. Currently the only acceptable weapon loadout is one that can be used in a spray and pray manner. That is counterproductive when the developers constantly state that they want to give people the option of handling threats in  their own way and wish to allow various playstyles to flourish.

[Azawarau]

Clearly though what we got was a mechanic that cancels any kind of counterplay except bullet hoses  and that is what I am trying to remedy. Currently the only acceptable weapon loadout is one that can be used in a spray and pray manner. That is counterproductive when the developers constantly state that they want to give people the option of handling threats in  their own way and wish to allow various playstyles to flourish.

Thats the issue

 

Im not sure why it wasnt made based on damage in the first place

 

If shields scaled with level they could do their job better and fit within the level ranges better

[geninrising]

Thats the issue

 

Im not sure why it wasnt made based on damage in the first place

 

If shields scaled with level they could do their job better and fit within the level ranges better

The other key thing is that it must react to critical hits as well since most high damage single shot builds use critical for 50% or more of their damage. Ignoring criticals is what prevents them from being killable for the most part by high crit builds. 

[geninrising]

added to OP another fix that would work

Edited January 3, 2015 by geninrising

[akira_him]

bump, I want that guy come up and eat my +1

[geninrising]

been about 12 hrs. this needs a bump.

[Althran]

O I HAVE A IDEA! MAKE MAGNET PROC DESTROY THE SHIELD! :D It would make magnet more viable!

 

Nullifier's already put a giant wall in front of people who want to use single RoF weapons.  Now you're saying I can only use magnet to survive? What's next, the game forcing you to use rhino + soma/boltor?

 

No thank you.

[geninrising]

Nullifier's already put a giant wall in front of people who want to use single RoF weapons.  Now you're saying I can only use magnet to survive? What's next, the game forcing you to use rhino + soma/boltor?

 

No thank you.

+1 Althran There is already too much segregation per gamemode of which frame you can use. I do not want MORE of said segregation.

 

The point of this post is to provide a fix/change that would again allow player choice to be all that truly restricts a player. The fact that anyone can be outright told that you MUST do anything in any way other than the way you WANT to is absolutely detrimental to the longevity of the game and ultimately DEs wallet. 

[geninrising]

Come on folks keep this going, we NEED this feedback to be seen. We are currently on a slippery slope towards a perpetually dominant "Meta" that must be rectified as soon as possible for the benefit of the entire game.

 

Design choices must be implemented in a way that propagates player choice, not in such a way that eliminates player choices. 

 

This thread is not a whine about difficulty, it is an ideal that players should be able to ultimately choose an effective means of countering opposition, and currently these nullifiers are not allowing freedom of choice at all.

[MechaTails]

Cripes. Banshee must be the most OP frame ever because I never have these kind of problems lol

[geninrising]

Cripes. Banshee must be the most OP frame ever because I never have these kind of problems lol

I applaud you sir for using one of the least played frames from the entire roster of WF. I too like Banshee and wish the overarching "meta" present in the game would fall apart and allow much easier acceptance of player choice in pugs and in recruitment. That is the purpose of this post, to drive production towards player choice and away from making players choose to use or do things against their wishes such as forcing higher ROF weaponry on players.

[geninrising]

Bump for feedback! This needs to be addressed.

[Ashnal]

*snip*

Personally, I believe the "press 4 to win" playstyle is alive and well. It still works at full effectiveness for two factions out of four. On the factions with nullifiers, all it takes is said caster to pop the bubble with their weapon before pressing 4, a feat that usually takes no more than two seconds. In fact I do it all the time with my Mag Shield Transference build in the Void. If I see a nullifier I'll just Latron P his shield down then press 3 to siphon his shields and kill his buddies.

 

No problem.

[geninrising]

Personally, I believe the "press 4 to win" playstyle is alive and well. It still works at full effectiveness for two factions out of four. On the factions with nullifiers, all it takes is said caster to pop the bubble with their weapon before pressing 4, a feat that usually takes no more than two seconds. In fact I do it all the time with my Mag Shield Transference build in the Void. If I see a nullifier I'll just Latron P his shield down then press 3 to siphon his shields and kill his buddies.

 

No problem.

Please note sir this is in no way condoning or complaining about the p42w play style. This is about whether high ROF weapons have an advantage over High damage weapons when facing nullifiers. The fact of the matter is that an unmodded praton mk1 can pop the bubble faster than a 5 forma opticor and that is just ignorance.

[Ashnal]

Please note sir this is in no way condoning or complaining about the p42w play style. This is about whether high ROF weapons have an advantage over High damage weapons when facing nullifiers. The fact of the matter is that an unmodded praton mk1 can pop the bubble faster than a 5 forma opticor and that is just ignorance.

It seemed when I read the OP that his main point was that Nullifiers were a speed bump for casters, effectively disallowing casters as a valid playstyle.

 

He also said they were too much of a speed bump for people who use guns.

 

Personally I'm fine with it being a speed bump for casters just fine. It's just that a caster and a gun user are one and the same. Unlike your typical RPG, one can be a caster and still have kick &#! weapons in this game. Therefore, for anything to be a speed bump to a caster, it also has to be a speed bump to a weapon user as well.

 

He didn't really touch on the difference between high and low RoF weapons in his post, so I think you're reading into it more and adding your own grievances than speaking for him.

 

That being said, I do agree that there needs to be a little more give with low RoF weapons. I think that they should not one shot the bubble, but it should not take 5 shots either. I think two shots from a slow firing weapon liek an opticor should be enough, while guns like the latron prime should still take a little more, but not its entire magazine like it seems to sometimes.