Nullifiers Need A Change

[PemudaBergairah]

I think The Nullifier is fair enough because it prevents Opticor user from being op. He has very low health by the way.

Things I do in every T4 Void Survival mission:

1. Be sure to equip Gammacor as a secondary weapon.

2. If you don't like to use secondary weapon, just use fast firing rate weapon as primary choice.

In T4 Survival currently I am using Boltor Prime (2 formas) because of its high DPS, consuming about 20-30 ammo.

Latron Prime (3 formas) needs 10-20 (not sure, I usually reload once to kill him) to shrink and kill him.

And Gammacor (no potato, no forma) needs a few seconds to kill him.

I think it's fair enough since he has very very low hitpoints, even he could die in seconds with standard not overcharged Gammacor :/

[geninrising]

It seemed when I read the OP that his main point was that Nullifiers were a speed bump for casters, effectively disallowing casters as a valid playstyle.

 

He also said they were too much of a speed bump for people who use guns.

 

Personally I'm fine with it being a speed bump for casters just fine. It's just that a caster and a gun user are one and the same. Unlike your typical RPG, one can be a caster and still have kick ! weapons in this game. Therefore, for anything to be a speed bump to a caster, it also has to be a speed bump to a weapon user as well.

 

He didn't really touch on the difference between high and low RoF weapons in his post, so I think you're reading into it more and adding your own grievances than speaking for him.

 

That being said, I do agree that there needs to be a little more give with low RoF weapons. I think that they should not one shot the bubble, but it should not take 5 shots either. I think two shots from a slow firing weapon liek an opticor should be enough, while guns like the latron prime should still take a little more, but not its entire magazine like it seems to sometimes.

The post by Edge was from a disagreement based around the damage/rate of fire ratio on the bubbles and while he said to remove it completely I provided a compromise. I additionally added the other bit regarding the damage as a means of explaining that they HAD NOT made it damage based and that it was still worlds easier to pop it with a high ROF weapon.

 

Oh and just to be clear I am the OP I just thought his idea could use a community look to see if it was acceptable, however make no mistake this post was in regards to High ROF Versus Low ROF weapons. I did not read into anything in his post nor did I say that he said such.

[geninrising]

I think The Nullifier is fair enough because it prevents Opticor user from being op. He has very low health by the way.

Things I do in every T4 Void Survival mission:

1. Be sure to equip Gammacor as a secondary weapon.

2. If you don't like to use secondary weapon, just use fast firing rate weapon as primary choice.

In T4 Survival currently I am using Boltor Prime (2 formas) because of its high DPS, consuming about 20-30 ammo.

Latron Prime (3 formas) needs 10-20 (not sure, I usually reload once to kill him) to shrink and kill him.

And Gammacor (no potato, no forma) needs a few seconds to kill him.

I think it's fair enough since he has very very low hitpoints, even he could die in seconds with standard not overcharged Gammacor :/

Regarding this and what you do, kindly no. Some of us prefer High damage single shot weapons and we should not be punished for said choice simply because of an imbalanced mechanic that favors High ROF over Low ROF.  It should be changed to be equally viable for a Paris prime user or Opticore user to kill it as say a Boltor Prime or a Synoid Gamacore.

 

Make no mistake, when I say kill it I mean handle it effectively and as quickly as a Boltor Prime or other bullet hose would, not be forced to give said unit plenty of time to kill you with his really strong gun that charges insanely fast for a Lanka.

 

A game mechanic should never be biased towards one option over another. That is detrimental to player choice and further pigeonholes people into an acceptable "Meta". DE has stated since day one that their primary design imperative is to give players equal choices in how to handle any situation and never FORCE them to do anything. And then they go and do this as well as let other things in this game flourish that remove other players choices.

Edited January 7, 2015 by geninrising

[Ashnal]

The post by Edge was from a disagreement based around the damage/rate of fire ratio on the bubbles and while he said to remove it completely I provided a compromise. I additionally added the other bit regarding the damage as a means of explaining that they HAD NOT made it damage based and that it was still worlds easier to pop it with a high ROF weapon.

 

Oh and just to be clear I am the OP I just thought his idea could use a community look to see if it was acceptable, however make no mistake this post was in regards to High ROF Versus Low ROF weapons. I did not read into anything in his post nor did I say that he said such.

Oh, well that clears that up then :)

Should have some more context in this thread's OP though ...

 

At any rate I was kinda disappointed when I saw you didn't address anything else that I posted >_>

[PemudaBergairah]

Regarding this and what you do, kindly no. Some of us prefer High damage single shot weapons and we should not be punished for said choice simply because of an imbalanced mechanic that favors High ROF over Low ROF.  It should be changed to be equally viable for a Paris prime user or Opticore user to kill it as say a Boltor Prime or a Synoid Gamacore.

 

Make no mistake, when I say kill it I mean handle it effectively and as quickly as a Boltor Prime or other bullet hose would, not be forced to give said unit plenty of time to kill you with his really strong gun that charges insanely fast for a Lanka.

 

A game mechanic should never be biased towards one option over another. That is detrimental to player choice and further pigeonholes people into an acceptable "Meta". DE has stated since day one that their primary design imperative is to give players equal choices in how to handle any situation and never FORCE them to do anything. And then they go and do this as well as let other things in this game flourish that remove other players choices.

I think it comes down to personal preference. Some people are fine for being forced :/

Again, I think it's fair enough. One shot kill weapon like Opticor can fast killing bosses including Corrupted Vor. May high RoF weapons kill Nullifier faster, while low RoF weapons kill bosses faster.

Everything is balanced dude, Damage 2.0 makes no weapons good at everything. This is my opinion.

[geninrising]

Oh, well that clears that up then :)

Should have some more context in this thread's OP though ...

 

At any rate I was kinda disappointed when I saw you didn't address anything else that I posted >_>

Sorry about not addressing the other point you made about having speed bumps.

 

Having speed bumbs is all well and good as long as they Serve their overall purpose, but simply handing the corpus/corrupted an all around nightmare is pretty bad even for a bandaid solution.

 

From what I have seen of Nullifiers, even in a team that is composed of non P42W players they are always the immediate focus forsaking all others, which in itself is ok. Where I come to a problem is the fact that they have such high damage they can one or 2 shot most frames, then we add to that the fact that they are weighted(effectively) towards one style of weapon heavily(high ROF non critical weapons).

 

IF nullifiers were not high damage as well as invulnerable without a player going to near suicidal lengths(at times) to kill them, or IF they were not weighted IN ANY way towards one fire rate or another(this includes their negation of critical values on hit as that weights them toward non critical weapons due to higher base damage values) it would be fine.

Edited January 9, 2015 by geninrising

[Ashnal]

Sorry about not addressing the other point you made about having speed bumps.

 

Having speed bumbs is all well and good as long as they Serve their overall purpose, but simply handing the corpus/corrupted an all around nightmare is pretty bad even for a bandaid solution.

 

From what I have seen of Nullifiers, even in a team that is composed of non P42W players they are always the immediate focus forsaking all others, which in itself is ok. Where I come to a problem is the fact that they have such high damage they can one or 2 shot most frames, then we add to that the fact that they are weighted(effectively) towards one style of weapon heavily(high ROF non critical weapons).

 

IF nullifiers were not high damage as well as invulnerable without a player going to near suicidal lengths(at times) to kill them, or IF they were not weighted IN ANY way towards one fire rate or another(this includes their negation of critical values on hit as that weights them toward non critical weapons due to higher base damage values) it would be fine.

Oh yeah I totally agree on the damage part. They have too strong and accurate of a weapon for the defensive utility they provide. IMO they should be lightly armed, and act as a support unit for other enemy units. A nullifier by itself should not be much of a threat, only a nullifier who is protecting heavy units.

[geninrising]

Oh yeah I totally agree on the damage part. They have too strong and accurate of a weapon for the defensive utility they provide. IMO they should be lightly armed, and act as a support unit for other enemy units. A nullifier by itself should not be much of a threat, only a nullifier who is protecting heavy units.

+1

[InsanePMK]

What sucks is when you get anywhere between 3-7 in a survival/defense mission. That sucks &#!.

[geninrising]

Looking for more feedback on the nullifier issue folks. Don't forget to plus 1 the initial post if you think change needs to be made!

Edited January 10, 2015 by geninrising

[ThePresident777]

I agree that we are having our playstyles shoe horned into a meta that actually removes player choice.  But, it's not because of nullifiers.  Nullifiers can be avoided.  Just don't play corpus.  There isn't much unique about corpus except Nullifiers, and no armor, in terms of game mechanics anyway.

 

The meta that our play styles are being show horned into is the drop and reward tables which give players the choice to play against a faction or on a certain mission or go without the rewards/loot that those choices drop.  The drop tables need to go back to the way they were when all enemy units regardless of faction could drop anything.  At that time we had true play style and game play choice.  And, non-endless missions need to be made as rewarding as endless missions.  Now, it's all convoluted, it's a mess.

 

EDIT:  A cool idea would be if factions had units and bases.  For example, the U.S. Army 101st Airborne division is known to be stationed in Fort Bragg, IIRC.  So, if you're going to invade Fort Bragg, that's good information to have, or you might be surprised.  So, if you go into the territory of the 101st Nullifier Division, you must like nullifiers.  But, the loot/reward tables still need to be divorced from game play or else we don't really have choice in how we play.  Without that, people will still feel compelled to play against the 101st Nullfier Division for the loot/reward and then they'll want them nerfed because they don't really like playing against them.  Which sucks for the people who do like playing against them.

Edited January 10, 2015 by ThePresident777

[geninrising]

I agree that we are having our playstyles shoe horned into a meta that actually removes player choice.  But, it's not because of nullifiers.  Nullifiers can be avoided.  Just don't play corpus.  There isn't much unique about corpus except Nullifiers, and no armor, in terms of game mechanics anyway.

 

The meta that our play styles are being show horned into is the drop and reward tables which give players the choice to play against a faction or on a certain mission or go without the rewards/loot that those choices drop.  The drop tables need to go back to the way they were when all enemy units regardless of faction could drop anything.  At that time we had true play style and game play choice.  And, non-endless missions need to be made as rewarding as endless missions.  Now, it's all convoluted, it's a mess.

 

EDIT:  A cool idea would be if factions had units and bases.  For example, the U.S. Army 101st Airborne division is known to be stationed in Fort Bragg, IIRC.  So, if you're going to invade Fort Bragg, that's good information to have, or you might be surprised.  So, if you go into the territory of the 101st Nullifier Division, you must like nullifiers.  But, the loot/reward tables still need to be divorced from game play or else we don't really have choice in how we play.  Without that, people will still feel compelled to play against the 101st Nullfier Division for the loot/reward and then they'll want them nerfed because they don't really like playing against them.  Which sucks for the people who do like playing against them.

The problem I see with divorcing loot tables from enemy types is this. What keeps DE from just giving all factions their answer to the player population just moving to spamming grineer for the rewards they want with the p42w style?

 

These enemies are not entirely bad with their intended purpose, however their scope of influence is my concern. They are currently the only enemy that is weighting player choice directly towards high rof weaponry and that is the crux of my argument of removal of choice. It's all good and well to have an enemy that we must deal with using our guns versus the almighty powers we are given BUT when the DEvs then choose what weapons will and will not work to tackle said obstacle it becomes a lot more restrictive and friendlier to some players than others.

 

In short drops are not even a concern here. It's the developers making some weapons less useful than others due to a few bad implementations that can easily be rectified.

[ThePresident777]

So, if DE normalizes rewards across all choices and all the players play only X then DE is expected to subvert all the player's choice to play only X, to shoe horn play styles into a meta that removes player choice?  That would be bad for business and choice.  It's a contradiction to complain about lack of choice then when players have choice and excersise it complain about the lack of choice.  It's a meta that shoe horns play styles into a lack of choice.

 

If the rewards are normalized across choices then player choice is maximized.  Choice is not minimized by player's making choices.  It's minimized by players not having them.  Reward normalization is a meta that maximizes player choice, in a way that is good for both players and gaming companies.

 

Putting choices in the game, then making some choices the better reward choice is rigging the game, not designing one.  It's a sign of a low quality meta.

[Kaisty]

What if they changed how the Nullifers activate their shields and had to use them? Instead of the shield following them around, they have to cast it on the ground and it stays there (like Frost's Snow Globe) until it is either destroyed or the unit casts it again.

 

Or DE could try something different and have the Nullifer be forced to stick the backpack on the ground (which causes his shield to go from squad size to gone for the time it took to place it) in order to generate the nullify field which would grow larger to a point. We could either destroy the shield and the pack or possibly rush in and pick it up, thus converting it to our side. It would prevent other fields from activating if enemies enter them while forcing us to only be able to use our secondary and melee weapons. Now holding the shield makes a smaller shield (big enough for a squad to be in) that will short out once in a while with enough damage but will grow back to normal if the user isn't damaged for a while. If two nullify fields touch (one for tenno and one for the enemy), they either cancel each other out or cause a temporary short out.

 

I know the different change I give would be OP, but the shields could only have the strength of the level of the Nullifer that placed it down. Also if another enemy unit picks it up, they can carry it around and do what they do without being hindered by holding it (imagine if a shield unit picked it up?)

[geninrising]

Putting choices in the game, then making some choices the better reward choice is rigging the game, not designing one.  It's a sign of a low quality meta.

True, this is precisely how I feel about the void. It also appears that DE is feeling a bit of this as well. During this year some time [DE]Sheldon dropped hints about the void having some occurrence that would be like a neutron bomb going off in the void scattering its contents all over the system. I am not so sure this was about the better rewards being in the void so much as it was about reward table dilution.

 

We will have to wait and see how the rewards are handled, but it is my hope that the rewards will end up on all the planets. However, this has an inherent flaw that would also need to be addressed. All of the planets have a rather large end of mission reward as well, most of the time some random mod.

 

If the planetary reward tables are nor pared down to sufficient size then reward table dilution will be just as bad. At least for the moment everything we do in the void counts for something. If we are not getting the item we want we get rare 5s /cores in general, parts we can trade for ducats forma, or possibly an orokin cell. Indeed if drops go to other planets it may be even MORE frustrating to get primes if you can imagine that.

[geninrising]

What if they changed how the Nullifers activate their shields and had to use them? Instead of the shield following them around, they have to cast it on the ground and it stays there (like Frost's Snow Globe) until it is either destroyed or the unit casts it again.

 

Or DE could try something different and have the Nullifer be forced to stick the backpack on the ground (which causes his shield to go from squad size to gone for the time it took to place it) in order to generate the nullify field which would grow larger to a point. We could either destroy the shield and the pack or possibly rush in and pick it up, thus converting it to our side. It would prevent other fields from activating if enemies enter them while forcing us to only be able to use our secondary and melee weapons. Now holding the shield makes a smaller shield (big enough for a squad to be in) that will short out once in a while with enough damage but will grow back to normal if the user isn't damaged for a while. If two nullify fields touch (one for tenno and one for the enemy), they either cancel each other out or cause a temporary short out.

 

I know the different change I give would be OP, but the shields could only have the strength of the level of the Nullifer that placed it down. Also if another enemy unit picks it up, they can carry it around and do what they do without being hindered by holding it (imagine if a shield unit picked it up?)

The only way the nullifiers can be balanced honestly is with a massive reduction in damage and a change in the shield mechanic itself to support all weapon usage equally.

 

This means the addition of a critical damage vulnerability(currently criticals do not register on things that are considered  inanimate objects) in addition the shield should not drain over time as it's mechanic currently does due to the fact that the current mechanic speeds up the shield shrinkage the faster you can apply damage to it, therefore faster ROF weapons are always superior in handling the shield.

 

Currently a basic braton from the shop(mk1 variety) can take down the shield approximately 5x faster than a paris prime 5 forma or 3 times faster than an opticor 5 forma. It just simply boggles the mind to think that this mechanic was implemented at all, much less the fact that it has sat for how many weeks since it's implementation.

Sure they put in a supposed patch that did nothing for the low ROF weapons, but did seem to in fact speed up the high ROF weapons ability to take them down SMH.

 

For clarification I am speaking of the void nullifiers in t3/t4 not the corpus , however the corpus ones still punish low ROF weapons immensely. They are just not as dangerous for the most part as they do not conceal bombards and heavy gunners in their bubbles.

 

This fix needs to be unified across both versions  and in such a way that all types of weapons are equally fit to handle the task as long as they are sufficiently powerful enough to drop those shields hp. 

[ThePresident777]

What if the enemy had a mobile bubble unit that moved at a reduced speed, had higher personal defense, and low offense, whose purpose was to shield highly offensive units like snipers?  And another set of troops to act as rushers?  This could present a new set of tactics and strategies.

 

Currently, Nullifiers are Corpus Sniper 2.0.  What if they had bronco's instead of snipetrons or lankas?  What if they had a larger Nullifier contraption to haul around?

[geninrising]

What if the enemy had a mobile bubble unit that moved at a reduced speed, had higher personal defense, and low offense, whose purpose was to shield highly offensive units like snipers?  And another set of troops to act as rushers?  This could present a new set of tactics and strategies.

 

Currently, Nullifiers are Corpus Sniper 2.0.  What if they had bronco's instead of snipetrons or lankas?  What if they had a larger Nullifier contraption to haul around?

This I could certainly see working, allow them to fulfill their intended roll as a defensive unit, however I would have to remark that their bubbles certainly still need a tweak to allow other weapons equal viability in handling them.

 

Additionally I feel that while the bronco would be an ideal weapon for them seeing as how they need close range weaponry to deal with threats that attempt to get inside their bubble, thematically it would not fit with the Corpus as the bronco is a Tenno weapon. I would say give them Quantas.

 

Giving them the Quanta would fit thematically with the corpus(lazors!) DE could just state that the quanta was originally a corpus weapon however our version has a limiter removed like our Lanka. Also the lanka would give them a new roll as a close range partially aoe threat with POTENTIALLY a large amount of damage they could deal if one is not careful. That would be worlds better than their current 360noscopeheadshots.

[ThePresident777]

Thematically, the detron would fit in place of the bronco.  But, the detron has better range and spread than the bronco.  It's also larger.  The idea was that the Nullifier would be burdened and busy with the nullifier contraption, so the smaller bronco seemed sensible, also for comedy.  A spectra might make sense.  But, the flux riflemen have laser accuracy and reflexes.  They aimbot.  A spectra nullifier would probably aimbot too.  Aimbotting doesn't really fit the theme of offensively weak.

[vaugahn]

Thematically, the detron would fit in place of the bronco.  But, the detron has better range and spread than the bronco.  It's also larger.  The idea was that the Nullifier would be burdened and busy with the nullifier contraption, so the smaller bronco seemed sensible, also for comedy.  A spectra might make sense.  But, the flux riflemen have laser accuracy and reflexes.  They aimbot.  A spectra nullifier would probably aimbot too.  Aimbotting doesn't really fit the theme of offensively weak.

 

What about a Lecta or a Serro with the range set to only hit things inside the shield?

[geninrising]

Thematically, the detron would fit in place of the bronco.  But, the detron has better range and spread than the bronco.  It's also larger.  The idea was that the Nullifier would be burdened and busy with the nullifier contraption, so the smaller bronco seemed sensible, also for comedy.  A spectra might make sense.  But, the flux riflemen have laser accuracy and reflexes.  They aimbot.  A spectra nullifier would probably aimbot too.  Aimbotting doesn't really fit the theme of offensively weak.

The Detron is already equipped on a  crew member in the Corpus roster. One of the reasons I suggested Spectra is that it adds further variety and is close range. Limited to a maximum 25 feet and is relatively weak so we no longer have problems with them being too offensively oriented.  

 

What about a Lecta or a Serro with the range set to only hit things inside the shield?

Lecta or Serro would possibly work for this however I think DE would not do this due to the fact that they would be utterly defenseless unless their weapon was set to proc a stun 100% of the time on hit, otherwise any melee frame would destroy them no matter their level in a single second plus they would have absolutely no threat at all to a gun user. With the suggestion of some other beam weapon as I recently stated they are still dangerous to an extent within a certain distance outside their bubble.

[Feallike]

I just want their sniper to be nerfed, that's it. Everything else about them is fine.

[ThePresident777]

The reason for the bronco proposal was the idea that the bubble contraption would burden the carrier so that it wouldn't be able to fight well.  It's to emphasize it's defensive nature.  Giving them melee weapons would be funny if they can't really use them.  Hmm, maybe the bubble contraption could be the size of a Volkswagen beetle.

Edited January 12, 2015 by ThePresident777

[geninrising]

The reason for the bronco proposal was the idea that the bubble contraption would burden the carrier so that it wouldn't be able to fight well.  It's to emphasize it's defensive nature.  Giving them melee weapons would be funny if they can't really use them.  Hmm, maybe the bubble contraption could be the size of a Volkswagen beetle.

Yeah the bronco would be a good idea if not for the thematic nature of the issue. Of course this could be a great time for DE to implement the factions actually utilizing the orokin tech that they are searching the void for constantly.

[Thundervision]

Wanted to create another Nullifier thread, but i think there's enough of them.

Well... Despite the fact that i like Nullifiers and its mechanic i'd like to see some simple changes.

 

Suggestions:

• Replace Nullifier's Lanka with Tetra/Dual Cestra

There's enough snipers already, and not enough LORE: that's absurd that we can use enemy blueprints to make guns while its owners -- can't. Heck, they saw that it works perfectly, so why not to arm their army/crew with new weaponry?

• Shield pop-up

Make it work depending on Nullifier LoS (line of sight) or alert-state: if he see/noticed you, he will activate and maintain his Shield until you killed him. Also, Nullifier won't use and maintain his Shield constantly in non-alert state.

• Nullifier shield-generator

Let us destroy it. I suppose that it's really simple change.

Why and how? Just like it works with Grineer Hellions or Sprag & Ven'kra -- you can destroy their jet-packs, that's it, no more air-fear (null-fear in our case).

Once his shield destroyed, he will use Hit & Run tactic with his Tetra/Cestra.