[Open Message To The Devs] Balencing Is Not The Issue, Endgame Is - Why Don't We Have Secret Bosses ?

[ZaneCyber]

Hello.

 

As we can all see, Archwing which is not the issue is taking a different direction from the base game which is the direction of balencing from the very beginning. Thus the complaint of mods not having enough power for RANK 10 or weapons not being "OP" enough, such as the recent Imperator Vandal. Others are crying out against rank 10 Legendary mods being too much of a grind.

 

Thing is, even if I'm almost positive I'm not the first person bringing the issue to you, balencing is not the issue and Rank 10 new mods isn't either. Rank 10 Point Blank, Flow, or even Continuity is just what players asked for : A legitimate grind to become more powerful. Grinding for R5 core (T4 survival) or Credits doesn't depend on RNG (or really, definitely not as much as prime parts) - It is something we can work towards knowing that at the end we will get what we invested time for. Also, it is a grind more open to Endgame players, eventually giving them an easier time doing what they are already doing : Curbstomping almost all content.

 

Like a majority, I'm of the following advice : Players who worked for their stuff against RNG, farmed cores, ressources, and mods, then farmed to put said mods to the top are entitled to curbstomping everything.

 

DE, you gave us an unique experience being incorporating RPG elements in a Shooter game : Warframe. Core principle of an RPG is that in the end, when you are max Level, stuffed with the very best, nothing will really give you a challenge - It is just as thing are and not "Unbalenced".

 

The real issue is, that in almost all RPG there is something there to challenge those players, Level 99/99 ones with max stats and the like which isn't present in warframe. Take Franchises such as Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, The Elder Scrolls to quote a few. I'm positive everyone know where we are going with this.

 

Secrets Bosses

 

Secrets bosses are a core of what makes RPG value maxxing out stuff after defeating the game, killing the "final boss". It can be the Emerald Weapon in a game I'm sure everyone know so I won't quote it, or even the Dragon Lord. A boss cornering players, endgame players having maxed out everything there was to max out making teambuilding and strategy matters, challenging them.

 

Speaking with others who helped make this message possible they agreed that the only boss fitting such a bill would be Lephantis. What makes Lephantis such a potential "Secret boss ?"

 

-> Several "phases" in his fight, killing his parts then killing him

-> He is hiding in a secret corner of the universe being Orokin Derelict

-> To get to him you need to find nav coordinates in orokin derelict mission and craft a key with said artifacts.

 

Basically, he has all the "characteristics" that makes a boss a secret one in a RPG while having several...downsides...

 

-> Basically, the only difficulty is shooting a specific part of his body (Like for Sargas Ruk or Vor Corruped)

-> He isn't such a challenge.

 

So, what could we do ? We after all need something that would bring challenge, difficulty to players so that the fact that balancing isn't the issue would be highlighted.

 

Ideas

 

1- This boss would be a boss in three phases, having three forms, each stronger than the other (another RPG-like aspect)

2- Each phase would have a "handicap" such as : No Energy / No shield / Decreasing Health / Decreased Movement Speed... For the first and second phase one handicap per phase, the last and final phase would be the two precedent handicap mixed together

3 - The boss would be tough, each form needing a specific way to defeat it making him a boss fit to be the opponent of maxxed out player bringing the necessity for proper teambuilding

 

Now, the last thing we wondered before writing this message, was : But how to give him playing value ? Replay value ? Why players would go out of their way to play him and replay him ?

 

One thing came back "Rewards" but which ones ? Do anyone has ideas to submit ?

 

This message wasn't addressed solely by me but is the result of speaking to several peoples both playing the game, retired players and aspiring ones so I do not claim credit for it...What are your thoughts ?

 

 

[Innocent_Flower]

Balancing is the issue. But i'd be happy to have more bosses. 

Edited January 1, 2015 by Innocent_Flower

[TheErebus.]

No, balancing is an issue. We have weapons that are far too powerful and overtake other weapons entirely, and then we have some weapons/frames that are so weak and pathetic you wouldn't want to bring them anywhere.

 

I want end-game as much as you guys, but balancing is an issue and it needs to be fixed.

[Filas312]

Actually if the balancing wasn't the issue, we'd probably not need some strange forms of endgame, as the content would just keep us entertained and let us have some choice, effectively letting us reply stuff in various ways.

[Dhrekr]

I fail to see anything new in here. It all sounds like "please DE more of the same but better".

[ZaneCyber]

Thing is, having played different styles in the last weeks (Sniper, Shotguns... By the way the Vulkar is one great sniper, 4 Forma and the underestimated Syndicate mod makes him the best sniper in the game currently in my opinion.) I didn't find it to be such an issue -> No matter what I brought to 60+ Survival T4 runs it did it's job as long as it was forma'd, and potatoed. And this is without legendary mods.

 

It is true that Mag and Ember prime are underpowered, not even speaking about Limbo, but that is a "minor" balencing issue which is already being worked on.

 

Thing is Warframe is a shooter @ RPG elements, we need the balencing RPG elements for endgame players : A true, legetimate secret boss. Something that we do not have yet ^^

Edited January 1, 2015 by ZaneCyber

[6KIRA9]

maybe if there is a chance for a mini boss to exist in a regluar mission somewhere, and we have to check the map to finde him (as parkour rooms in void) killing him gives an additional reward ?? [ NOT AVALIABLE in survival, Defense, Interception, Excavation and Hijak mission types]

[ZaneCyber]

That would be great, but a "Secret boss" would still be great ^^

 

Also my two cents on balencing :

 

Having tested, tried, and made calculation, a Hek @ Scattered Justice and no Primed Point Blank dish out the same DPS as a Piercing caliber 6 Forma'd Boltor prime. A Phage / 60% statuts chance per second viral can boast the same.

 

A Vulkar will always be able with proper moding and formating be able to one shot 6 target before reloading at 70+ T4 survival where a Boltor prime will need one magazine per two heavy gunners.

 

Balencing and damage isn't the real issue, issue is, it is easier to Spray and Pray with a Boltor prime that is more confortable of use... which is not a balence issue really.

 

Also, isn't tiered weapons a constant of RPG ? Warframe is still a Shooter with RPG points so...

Edited January 1, 2015 by ZaneCyber

[Quizel]

One of the greatest aspects about WF imo is the fact you can group up with randoms and expect to win. This is why void stuff needs to remain semi ez imo.

 

 

I can approve of what the OP is suggesting to an extent but I think DE has gained much of its success in keeping content accessible to everyone.  High end difficult bosses would be basically exclusive content. Putting lots of resources into exclusive content may not be the best business plan for them.

 

Besides I think it's a bad idea for de being that their idea of harder content often ends up as artificial difficulty and regardless of how skilled you are sooner or later you get 1-shot, cc'ed, energy drained, ect. "Balance" just doesn't exist in the game because of how OP some wf abilities are. With that said, I think WF thrives on the fact fun balance is achieved through the unbalancing. 

 

TLDR: I agree and disagree this is what WF needs >.>

Edited January 1, 2015 by Quizel

[ZaneCyber]

One of the greatest aspects about WF imo is the fact you can group up with randoms and expect to win. This is why void stuff needs to remain semi ez imo.

 

 

I can approve of what the OP is suggesting to an extent but I think DE has gained much of its success in keeping content accessible to everyone.  High end difficult bosses would be basically exclusive content. Putting lots of resources into exclusive content may not be the best business plan for them.

 

Besides I think it's a bad idea for de being that their idea of harder content often ends up as artificial difficulty and regardless of how skilled you are sooner or later you get 1-shot, cc'ed, energy drained, ect. "Balance" just doesn't exist in the game because of how OP some wf abulties are. With that said, I think WF thrives on the fact fun balance is achieved through the unbalancing. 

 

TLDR: I agree and disagree this is what WF needs >.>

 

I agree with it, but isn't Void Stuff not "grouping up with random" ? Since you need to make a group before going on a void mission.

 

Most of the time, you do it with people you have experience playing with, or recruit specifics builds on the recruit chan !

 

Also, one secret boss would be a great way to balence the game and give endgame players something to do and to use their weapons on :)

 

I agree with you though, the Unbalencing and the "killing everything that moves" is the fun balence of warframe and shouldn't be taking away : A secret boss would centralize every "issue" people have with this "unbalence" fixing it and letting the fun unbalence thrives.

 

So... why not both?

Edited January 1, 2015 by ZaneCyber

[barbare-billon]

Like some have already written and many believe, I think balancing is an huge issue in Warframe, just not the only one.

 

In exemple : I essentially play with the Boltor prime, which I consider the most OP gun in the game, being aware it is unbalenced, but I think nerfing it's accuracy would be great, or it's low recoil.

DPS is not the only factor that should drag us to choose one weapon over an other, it's handling or other subjectives sides should weight in our choices. By nerfing the top-tier things and buffing neverused stuff (yep, balancing) I could choose which weapon or frame really fits my playstyle not just by looking at it's DPS.

 

We clearly lack of end-game hidden golden shinny i-don't-know content, I'm prety sure some decision DE makes are bad (euphemism), but not everything is trash, I still like this game as everyone in this topic, that's why we share our points of view about the issues we deal with.

[ZaneCyber]

Like some have already written and many believe, I think balancing is an huge issue in Warframe, just not the only one.

 

In exemple : I essentially play with the Boltor prime, which I consider the most OP gun in the game, being aware it is unbalenced, but I think nerfing it's accuracy would be great, or it's low recoil.

DPS is not the only factor that should drag us to choose one weapon over an other, it's handling or other subjectives sides should weight in our choices. By nerfing the top-tier things and buffing neverused stuff (yep, balancing) I could choose which weapon or frame really fits my playstyle not just by looking at it's DPS.

 

We clearly lack of end-game hidden golden shinny i-don't-know content, I'm prety sure some decision DE makes are bad (euphemism), but not everything is trash, I still like this game as everyone in this topic, that's why we share our points of view about the issues we deal with.

 

I agree so much that it hurts but otherwise I disagree.

 

Thing is, we are looking at warframe a game unlike any other shooter out there and expecting it to follow the same rules.

 

Of course we won't be able to kill equally with every weapon in the game, what would be the point ? In a RPG, or a Shooter RPG Hybrid, of course some weapon will be top tier and other won't be.

 

I think the issue isn't so much nerfing and buffing, just not making it so punitive to use other weapons than the Boltor prime and Soma prime to name a few.

 

How do I destroy as fast as a Boltor prime a Nullifier corrupted bubble with a Vulkar ? Answer is I can't. This can be easily solved without nerfing or buffing : Just allow a sniper shot to shot down a "high priority target" like the nullifier by bypassing the shield - > Hop, a reason to bring a Sniper instead of a Boltor in endgame.

[barbare-billon]

 

I agree so much that it hurts but otherwise I disagree.

 

Thing is, we are looking at warframe a game unlike any other shooter out there and expecting it to follow the same rules.

 

Of course we won't be able to kill equally with every weapon in the game, what would be the point ? In a RPG, or a Shooter RPG Hybrid, of course some weapon will be top tier and other won't be.

 

I think the issue isn't so much nerfing and buffing, just not making it so punitive to use other weapons than the Boltor prime and Soma prime to name a few.

 

How do I destroy as fast as a Boltor prime a Nullifier corrupted bubble with a Vulkar ? Answer is I can't. This can be easily solved without nerfing or buffing : Just allow a sniper shot to shot down a "high priority target" like the nullifier by bypassing the shield - > Hop, a reason to bring a Sniper instead of a Boltor in endgame.

That's why I was talking about other aspects of weapons that dammages.

 

Something great we lost with damages 2.0 is armor bypassing. Giving the ability to ignore armor at the cost of raw damages or DPS could be great and fit some playstyle : i.e: me playing Nekros, willing to build an army of corrupted heavy gunners and bombards, which are high-armored targets. Since I'm focussing on Desecrate everything, I can't bring a weapon able to kill all king of foe in more or less time / shots, but something optimised to kill what I choose to destroy.

 

About Vulkar or Boltor prime Vs Nullifuck : Nullifier's bubble require an high fire-rate gun to take down it, where Boltor shinnes, but Vulkar can one-shot other targets instead, that is valuable, but can't deal with crowd of mobs. Every weapons have it's plus and it's downsides, but some are just too versatile and too powerfull to ignore their potential.

 

We ask for versatillity and balancing : we already have MANY guns but can't choose some because their are just too weak compared to anothers.

[Oberonight]

We will never have "endgame" because...well its ENDgame.

If the game "ends" then DE won't make money because players will stop playing once they've hit this theoretical end of the game.

Besides what would secret bosses reward? 

Fusion Cores? Nope, it reduces grinding

Forma? If it helps you grind faster than no.

Potatoes? Ditto

Anything that results in less grind means less money spent and less money is a big no-no for DE.

[vaugahn]

DE, you gave us an unique experience being incorporating RPG elements in a Shooter game : Warframe. Core principle of an RPG is that in the end, when you are max Level, stuffed with the very best, nothing will really give you a challenge - It is just as thing are and not "Unbalenced".

 

Warframe is just as much a shooter as it is an RPG though. Balance has to be considered.

 

Of course it's assumed that top tier weapons will stomp low tier content, but the problem is top tier weapons aren't really balanced among each other. 

 

Anything that results in less grind means less money spent and less money is a big no-no for DE.

 

Go take your salt somewhere else.

[Oberonight]

 

Go take your salt somewhere else.

 

Elaborate on how that can be considered salt.

[ZaneCyber]

Elaborate on how that can be considered salt.

It is salt because it gets us nowhere.

 

DE is before most, a company and a company has to earn money in order to live. If they didn't get money, warframe would die plain and simple -> It may not be a reason for some of the tweaks in those last months but here is not the place to discuss it.

 

To Vaugahn, sure, they need a little tweaking but without being dishonest I find pretty much all top tier weapons of each category "even" in what they do best. Hek is a Shotgun dealing 10 000 or more per shot on 4 shots (depending on whether you use primed point blank or not, and those numbers are used without Vicious spread. You go down to 8000 / shot if you use Seeking force instead of Breach loader, and this is only using 3 forma.). The Phage is a massive Statut beast purely elemental... That's for shotguns.

 

Dread/Paris Prime for bows do great at what they do beast : OS'ing high priority targets, and everything arround them thanks to innate punchthrough. (Althrough, good luck killing a nullifier's bubble with it)

 

Snipers... Each of the threes has their own style of play. Lanka is basically a Bow with massive punchthrough and a scope with purely elemental damage and no red crit. Vulkar is a Hitscan monster with 80% or so statuts (viral) when modded in the right way alongside 6 shots per clips. And Vectis... Well vectis even without primed chamber is respectable, for those few having it (I'm sadly not counted in those) it does well at what it does best : One shotting everythig it touches.

 

As for Rifles, they are by far the easiest to use. Damage-Accessibility's ratio is excellent for them since for Soma and Boltor prime you only need to spray and pray most of the time. Thus their popularity amongst new players and up.

 

But we have nothing challenging in endgame to use them on :/